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[DrGFreeman]

Have a look what they've published

err, yeah, the excerpt above was from the paper written by teela saunders, again I'm not getting the 'Marxist feminist' vibe
the problem with trying to publish research that's purely opinion is the peer review
really, you do post a pile of crap

[Ali Katt]

err, yeah, the excerpt above was from the paper written by teela saunders, again I'm not getting the 'Marxist feminist' vibe
the problem with trying to publish research that's purely opinion is the peer review
really, you do post a pile of crap

You just can't join the dots. Do you honestly think a university would fund a paper advertising fucking women for money is fun? Rosie Campbell is latching onto a populist ideology to become an MP, she is a little Harriet Harman. Every research paper related to sociology has an angle, it's not necessarily opinionated. Sociology like Psychology is a pseudo-science, it's not rocket science. If the subject was say "black children are more likely to be deprived" it could be used to gain funding for black charities. To me this looks like it is trying to push some government legislation.

[DrGFreeman]

You just can't join the dots. Do you honestly think a university would fund a paper advertising fucking women for money is fun? Rosie Campbell is latching onto a populist ideology to become an MP, she is a little Harriet Harman. Every research paper related to sociology has an angle, it's not necessarily opinionated. Sociology like Psychology is a pseudo-science, it's not rocket science. If the subject was say "black children are more likely to be deprived" it could be used to gain funding for black charities. To me this looks like it is trying to push some government legislation.

No the study wasn't funded by a university, you would know who it was funded by if you read any of the information.
DO you think your opinions are facts ? Could you maybe post some references, otherise your ramblings are nonsense 

[5th Musketeer]

Feminism is a stick to beat men with. It was noble to begin with, equal work right for women and votes. It was exploited to make all men appear inferior. The women doing these surveys are trying to become MPs. Most feminists see a man having sex with a woman as a rape, they do not see prostitutes as being liberated, but abuse victims. The main people who are against prostitution are women, don't believe me look at mumsnet. If a woman suports prostitution their fraternity won't class them as a proper feminist; much like if a Muslim doesn't support Shariah law people in his community would see him as a traitor.

Sorry Ali Katt - but you are so wrong.  You impute motives because of your perception that "The women doing these surveys are trying to become MPs" without any factual support.   

Furthermore, your statement "Most feminists see a man having sex with a woman as a rape" is so out of this world that I have to ask you what your education is, though I really don't want to know, and neither do I expect you to tell me, but it does display a very warped view of sexuality.

Your additional statement "The main people who are against prostitution are women" ignores the facts that many of the critics of prostitution are men who want women barefoot at home in the kitchen.  If you don't believe me look at America's Republican party supporters - many of whom are hypocrites.

Finally, when you say "If a woman suports [sic] prostitution their fraternity won't class them as a proper feminist" ignores ALL the women who want to control their own bodies and what they do with them.

Have you NEVER been with a WG who enjoys the freedom of sex with strangers, while at the same time being paid for it?  I have, as well as the ones who enjoy sex and WANT to be paid for it.

This all makes me wonder how old you are, though again I don't expect you will tell me.  But give me a decade......

[vw]

Maybe I don't share your paranoia, but I'm not feeling this conspiracy theory. Please, share your evidence ?

I won't be filling it in end of.

Expect when you get stung once you will share scepticism with many here.

Best of luck anyway

[DrGFreeman]

Expect when you get stung once you will share scepticism with many here.

how would I 'get stung' completing an anonymous online survey from a university sociology dept ?

[rumbler]

Personally I won't be filling it in, which I have multiple reasons for.

an anonymous online survey

Sorry, but as this is a field I've had training in (data forensics) and part of my job role is network and data security I feel people need to understand that unless you take a LOT of precautions you are NOT anonymous. One example would be browser fingerprinting which you can get an idea of by googling, and even seeing easily just how unique you are in regards to being able to track you online - External Link/Members Only
There are many other techniques, so feel free to volunteer directly identifiable information to an organisation who's long term goals maybe vastly different to what you thought you were helping with.

[DrGFreeman]

Sorry, but as this is a field I've had training in (data forensics) and part of my job role is network and data security I feel people need to understand that unless you take a LOT of precautions you are NOT anonymous. One example would be browser fingerprinting which you can get an idea of by googling, and even seeing easily just how unique you are in regards to being able to track you online. there are many other techniques, so feel free to volunteer directly identifiable information to an organisation who's long term goals maybe vastly different to what you thought you were helping with.

I'm sure its possible, but the bit you missed off the quote was

'from a university sociology dept '

I'd be surprised if GCHQ are that interested in my punting activity and are tracking me Jason bourne style from some bunker
Its a fuckin university     [first time I felt the need for that emoticon]
Are you typing this with aluminium foil round your head to protect from cosmic rays ?

[rumbler]

I'm sure its possible, but the bit you missed off the quote was I'd be surprised if GCHQ are that interested in my punting activity and are tracking me Jason bourne style from some bunker
Its a fuckin university     [first time I felt the need for that emoticon]
Are you typing this with aluminium foil round your head to protect from cosmic rays ?

No, I'm not typing this with aluminium foil round my head. Your ignorance of technology matters not to me as I know how it can be used and also how university IT is not run by each department.  Carry on thinking what you like and spouting abuse towards me, it doesn't bother me.

EDIT: External Link/Members Only
 

[DrGFreeman]

No, I'm not typing this with aluminium foil round my head. Your ignorance of technology matters not to me as I know how it can be used and also how university IT is not run by each department.  Carry on thinking what you like and spouting abuse towards me, it doesn't bother me.

I didn't mean to offend, but I think you're over analysing
So I'm sure someone could copy my responses to the survey and determine my IP address. So ?
Maybe they could hack into my laptop - but apart from copyright infringement and some dodgy porn, what are they going to find ?
You think they will attempt to blackmail me ?


edit : I don't see the relevance of the link - its a look at 'big data' in higher education, not how, for instance, 3rd party software providers have been determining respondents location and passing them on the data to the Albanian mafia

[rumbler]

I didn't mean to offend, but I think you're over analysing
So I'm sure someone could copy my responses to the survey and determine my IP address. So ?
Maybe they could hack into my laptop - but apart from copyright infringement and some dodgy porn, what are they going to find ?
You think they will attempt to blackmail me ?


edit : I don't see the relevance of the link - its a look at 'big data' in higher education, not how, for instance, 3rd party software providers have been determining respondents location and passing them on the data to the Albanian mafia

At no point did I say they were passing the data on to any criminal organisations, nor did I say they were interested in hacking or blackmailing you.

 I understand you don't grasp what big data can be used for, nor do I expect you to. I'm just pointing out that believing you are anonymous online, without taking vast precautions, you aren't. Google for instance is as rich as it is due to big data and what it can be used for and they are using it for monetary gain. The governments attempts to pass the snoopers charter is a similar idea of how to grab vast quanties of big data to be able to identify individuals and all their habits and preferences.

We'll agree to disagree on the importance, 

[Ali Katt]

Sorry Ali Katt - but you are so wrong.  You impute motives because of your perception that "The women doing these surveys are trying to become MPs" without any factual support. 

Have a look at what Rosie Campbell has published and who it is for. These research papers are a way of networking into politics. I could be wrong on the motives, but do you honestly think it has been funded to the tune of nearly half a million just to create a narrative?

Furthermore, your statement "Most feminists see a man having sex with a woman as a rape" is so out of this world that I have to ask you what your education is, though I really don't want to know, and neither do I expect you to tell me, but it does display a very warped view of sexuality.

By feminists I don't mean a woman who owns a book by Germaine Greer, I mean the ones posting on blogs like External Link/Members Only. The feminist cause was hijacked by idiots like Andrea Dworkin to perpetuate their hatred of men.

Your additional statement "The main people who are against prostitution are women" ignores the facts that many of the critics of prostitution are men who want women barefoot at home in the kitchen.  If you don't believe me look at America's Republican party supporters - many of whom are hypocrites.

You are right there are hypocritical men and there are women that are for prostitution. Have a look at the main critics of prostitution, it's people like Harriet Harman.

Finally, when you say "If a woman suports [sic] prostitution their fraternity won't class them as a proper feminist" ignores ALL the women who want to control their own bodies and what they do with them.

How many true (i.e. militant) feminists are on the game? My money is on zero. Feminism is a girl's club. The biggest critics of women are women, they're the ones who criticise other women if they have the wrong brand of shoes or aren't a size zero.

Have you NEVER been with a WG who enjoys the freedom of sex with strangers, while at the same time being paid for it?  I have, as well as the ones who enjoy sex and WANT to be paid for it.

Yes I have, but that's a total strawman argument and you know it. I am talking about feminism not whether prostitutes enjoy sex.

This all makes me wonder how old you are, though again I don't expect you will tell me.  But give me a decade......

Oh please 5th Musketeer your attempts at ad hominem are truly pathetic. I've not insulted a single punter on this thread despite numerous opportunities. If that's what you want we can go there.

Feminism is no longer about equal pay or workers rights. It is an incredibly toxic series of ideologies. Even gay men have spoken out against feminism. If you are a man who calls himself a feminist, cut off your dick, put on a bin bag and start hanging around with the other bean flickers.

[DrGFreeman]

At no point did I say they were passing the data on to any criminal organisations, nor did I say they were interested in hacking or blackmailing you.
 I understand you don't grasp what big data can be used for, nor do I expect you to. I'm just pointing out that believing you are anonymous online, without taking vast precautions, you aren't. Google for instance is as rich as it is due to big data and what it can be used for and they are using it for monetary gain. The governments attempts to pass the snoopers charter is a similar idea of how to grab vast quanties of big data to be able to identify individuals and all their habits and preferences

I get why snowden was concerned, who knows what GCHQ are up to,
but that's not relevant to the thread, unless those concerns prevent you filling in the survey

[vw]

how would I 'get stung' completing an anonymous online survey from a university sociology dept ?

When they recommend  policy that stings you in the ass.

Ando I don't trust what you or them call anonymous.   As theye say a fool and his life are easily parted.

[socks]

Gosh - I just thought it was fun doing the survey 

[5th Musketeer]

Have a look at what Rosie Campbell has published and who it is for. These research papers are a way of networking into politics. I could be wrong on the motives, but do you honestly think it has been funded to the tune of nearly half a million just to create a narrative?
By feminists I don't mean a woman who owns a book by Germaine Greer, I mean the ones posting on blogs like External Link/Members Only. The feminist cause was hijacked by idiots like Andrea Dworkin to perpetuate their hatred of men.
You are right there are hypocritical men and there are women that are for prostitution. Have a look at the main critics of prostitution, it's people like Harriet Harman.
How many true (i.e. militant) feminists are on the game? My money is on zero. Feminism is a girl's club. The biggest critics of women are women, they're the ones who criticise other women if they have the wrong brand of shoes or aren't a size zero.
Yes I have, but that's a total strawman argument and you know it. I am talking about feminism not whether prostitutes enjoy sex.
Oh please 5th Musketeer your attempts at ad hominem are truly pathetic. I've not insulted a single punter on this thread despite numerous opportunities. If that's what you want we can go there.

Feminism is no longer about equal pay or workers rights. It is an incredibly toxic series of ideologies. Even gay men have spoken out against feminism. If you are a man who calls himself a feminist, cut off your dick, put on a bin bag and start hanging around with the other bean flickers.

Why do you say that Harriet Harman is one of the MAIN critics of prostitution?  There are so many others, and she has her own, preconceived notions about what prostitution is.  She is on record as saying “…Prostitution is bad for women, men and neighbourhoods…” and “… I think there are only a very small number of women for whom prostitution is genuinely a free, positive, strong choice.  Most women find themselves in prostitution because of mental illness, drug or alcohol addiction.  Many have had troubled or abused childhoods or have been brought up in the care system.  Many have been tricked into prostitution by human traffickers who have brought them from abroad and then forced them into the sex trade.  These women need protecting and help to lead a better, safer life. If that means interfering with the "right" of the very few women who choose to sell sex or the "right" of men to buy sex, then so be it.”  That all sounds like a fairly standard critical (and, dare I say, mainstream) view of prostitution and it is from someone whose views are highly unlikely to differ from the mainstream.   And I in no way condone forced prostitution - I am totally in favour of THAT being illegal.  However, we should recognize first that most men (and women like HH) have no idea how and why all working girls or escorts (or prostitutes, to use the pejorative term) do what they do.  It would be anathema to HH to take a view that is out of the mainstream.  And while I do not in any way agree with Corbyn, I admire his courage in trying to bring an understanding of the sex-worker profession into the public’s view.
I’m sorry if you felt that my wondering about your age made you think it was an ad hominem attack, but your argument sounded a bit dated.  I don’t regard those feminists who post on the internet, as in your hyperlink quote, to be representative of all those who believe in feminism.  “Feminists” are not a monolithic whole, they all have their own beliefs about what a woman is entitled to in the current world.  There are militant feminists who believe in nothing but equality with men in everything (and that means EVERYTHING) and there are militant feminists who want women to be treated equally in what they regard as a ‘normal’ life, not recognizing that ‘normal’ is not the same for everyone. 
When I mentioned women WANTING to be paid for sex and enjoying it I don’t understand why you say it is a strawman argument.  You acknowledged that you know it exists, and that you have experienced it, though not how frequently – and I have no desire to find out.
Finally I don’t agree with you that feminism is an incredibly toxic series of ideologies.  It is different, but if you don’t agree with it that doesn’t make it toxic.
I’m sorry that, in your final paragraph, you felt you had to get abusive.  I have no desire to go there.

[Ali Katt]

Why do you say that Harriet Harman is one of the MAIN critics of prostitution? 

She was trying to push a series of laws which rather than help prostitutes seemed to put emphasis on prosecuting the punter. I can see the current government planning something similar. They wanted opt-in for pornographic sites and this site would be grouped in with them. She was influential at the time and her comments towards fathers 4 justice and other groups seemed sexist.

However, we should recognize first that most men (and women like HH) have no idea how and why all working girls or escorts (or prostitutes, to use the pejorative term) do what they do.  It would be anathema to HH to take a view that is out of the mainstream.  And while I do not in any way agree with Corbyn, I admire his courage in trying to bring an understanding of the sex-worker profession into the public’s view.

As I've said I honestly believe the writings of Brooke Magnanti has been and will be more influential than any University paper.

I’m sorry if you felt that my wondering about your age made you think it was an ad hominem attack, but your argument sounded a bit dated.  I don’t regard those feminists who post on the internet, as in your hyperlink quote, to be representative of all those who believe in feminism.  “Feminists” are not a monolithic whole, they all have their own beliefs about what a woman is entitled to in the current world.  There are militant feminists who believe in nothing but equality with men in everything (and that means EVERYTHING) and there are militant feminists who want women to be treated equally in what they regard as a ‘normal’ life, not recognizing that ‘normal’ is not the same for everyone. 

The militant feminists want to be treated as superior to men, not equal. I'm all for equality and equal pay, what I've no interest in is sit at home trout sniffers bitching about men on Facebook or trying to prosecute men who compliment a woman.

When I mentioned women WANTING to be paid for sex and enjoying it I don’t understand why you say it is a strawman argument.  You acknowledged that you know it exists, and that you have experienced it, though not how frequently – and I have no desire to find out.

I thought it was deviating from the topic.

Finally I don’t agree with you that feminism is an incredibly toxic series of ideologies.  It is different, but if you don’t agree with it that doesn’t make it toxic.

I should have said feminism in it's current form and the kind being pushed by the MSM. Which includes prosecuting men for cat calling. Or Leeds uni posters that claimed talking to a woman was abusive. It is toxic to me as it is repressive. In the same way I find the idea of SJWs toxic.

I’m sorry that, in your final paragraph, you felt you had to get abusive.  I have no desire to go there.

It was directed at male feminists, not you as such. If they think their white knighting wins them favours they are very much mistaken. Women like strong men, not wimps who agree with everything they say.

[5th Musketeer]

Ali Katt - points taken and understood.  I don't think that deep down we are too far from each other's positions.

[Ali Katt]

Ali Katt - points taken and understood.  I don't think that deep down we are too far from each other's positions.

Thanks for the sensible replies by the way. My main issue is feminism is a false flag for liberation when it can actually be repressive.

[Noah Hope]

She was trying to push a series of laws which rather than help prostitutes seemed to put emphasis on prosecuting the punter. I can see the current government planning something similar. They wanted opt-in for pornographic sites and this site would be grouped in with them. She was influential at the time and her comments towards fathers 4 justice and other groups seemed sexist.As I've said I honestly believe the writings of Brooke Magnanti has been and will be more influential than any University paper.
The militant feminists want to be treated as superior to men, not equal. I'm all for equality and equal pay, what I've no interest in is sit at home trout sniffers bitching about men on Facebook or trying to prosecute men who compliment a woman.
I thought it was deviating from the topic.

I should have said feminism in it's current form and the kind being pushed by the MSM. Which includes prosecuting men for cat calling. Or Leeds uni posters that claimed talking to a woman was abusive. It is toxic to me as it is repressive. In the same way I find the idea of SJWs toxic.

It was directed at male feminists, not you as such. If they think their white knighting wins them favours they are very much mistaken. Women like strong men, not wimps who agree with everything they say.

I don't think the first one is accurate. Amazonian feminism  for instance promotes strong women, but that's doesn't mean it's necessarily about superiority over men.  (Though  that might be enjoyable sometimes .)

"Male feminists."   I think feminists in general might be surprised to read UKP is apparently such a hotbed of male feminism.  Discussing ideas isn't the same as identifying yourself with being a member of the movement promoting those ideas. Has any (male) member of UKP ever said they were a feminist? It seems when male feminists don't exist they have to be invented.

[Ali Katt]

I don't think the first one is accurate. Amazonian feminism  for instance promotes strong women, but that's doesn't mean it's necessarily about superiority over men.  (Though  that might be enjoyable sometimes .)

"Male feminists."   I think feminists in general might be surprised to read UKP is apparently such a hotbed of male feminism.  Discussing ideas isn't the same as identifying yourself with being a member of the movement promoting those ideas. Has any (male) member of UKP ever said they were a feminist? It seems when male feminists don't exist they have to be invented.

As an example of female superiority. A man is new to a company, his manager is female. The man puts in overtime and gets noticed for it. The woman clocks off early to go to her son's piano recital, football game, feminist meeting whatever. The man becomes head of department in a few years and becomes her boss. Is this due to sexism and male favouritism or hard work? Some feminists would blame sexism.

As for male feminist, you obviously haven't seen these sorry cunts that wear thsese t-shirts:


Hidden Image/Members Only

[RosieBTG]

Hi All,

Thanks to all who completed the survey!! We appreciate your help. Also thanks to those who have commented here but not taken part or who are critical of the research, important we hear those views. I'll feed back to the wider team.

Just wanted to post to let UKP members know the survey close date has been extended to 31st October 2016!  We've had a really good response with just over 1000 responses todate.

Best Rosie

[JV547845]

Even if it is a way into politics for someone or some other crap, good laws can't be made without good information.  We've got nothing to be ashamed of, just because we pay for consensual sex. 

[RosieBTG]

Hi,

Just wanted to say a massive THANKS to all who took part in the Beyond the Gaze Customer survey!! I know some people on the forum helped us out and took part and we really appreciate that. The survey closed yesterday and we have had 1346 people take part making this the largest UK survey to date of customers of sex workers/adult service providers.

So now stats people in our research team will analyse the survey and we will write up the findings. I will let people on the forum know when those findings are available in summary reports and the final research report down the line. As people who have taken part know this survey is one part of a wider research study which is on going.

We got a lot of people offering to help out with interviews as well so we'll be taking those forward soon.

THANKS  AGAIN TO ALL WHO TOOK PART & TO UKP FOR GIVING US SPACE WITHIN THE FORUM.
Rosie, Researcher Beyond the Gaze, Leicester University

[Chuckman]

Received an e-mail from Teela Sanders yesterday about whether or not I want to do a phone interview with her. Replied that I would and am now waiting to her back from her.

Anyone else on here had an e-mail from her?

[Home Alone]

I wasn't a member on here when this thread started so wasn't involved in this research.

But I was involved in the research for "Paying for pleasure", Teela Sanders' book which came out in 2008. I'd heard her being interviewed on Radio 4 about it in 2006 or '07 and she ended the interview with a request for punters who were prepared to be interviewed to contact her - she worked at one of the Universities in Leeds at the time. I responded and that led to a telephone interview which lasted probably 75 minutes.

I bought the book when it was published and found it interesting, although I'm sure I remember reading that the research paper on which it was based was criticised in one of the sociological journals on the basis that the respondants were self-selecting. While that's true, I don't see how Dr. Sanders could have contacted us otherwise. I'm not sure, but don't think this site existed 10 years ago??

[Horizontal pleasures]

Received an e-mail from Teela Sanders yesterday about whether or not I want to do a phone interview with her. Replied that I would and am now waiting to her back from her.

Anyone else on here had an e-mail from her?

so how did this woman have your email address and know that you are a punter?

[Just Some Bloke]

so how did this woman have your email address and know that you are a punter?

One of the survey questions was whether you were willing to be contacted for a follow up interview and asked for an email address if you were.

[Chuckman]

so how did this woman have your email address and know that you are a punter?

When I filled in the initial questionnaire it asked if I wanted to be contacted for an interview and gave my details. She's replied to my email and the phone interview will be going ahead on the 19th of this month.

[milo]

so how did this woman have your email address and know that you are a punter?

HP -

Back in July you contributed a reply to this thread that suggested that you had completed the survey.

So, depending on what you filled in, she may have your details, too.

[chrishornx]

When I filled in the initial questionnaire it asked if I wanted to be contacted for an interview and gave my details. She's replied to my email and the phone interview will be going ahead on the 19th of this month.

it is now 30th of 'this month' so has the interview gone ahead??

[Chuckman]

it is now 30th of 'this month' so has the interview gone ahead??

Oops! Thought it was December, just got ahead of myself.

[5th Musketeer]

I had my interview with Teela Sanders yesterday and it was neither difficult nor awkward.  I wish her luck with her research and look forward to seeing the results in due course.