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Author Topic: Can a escort be a feminist too?  (Read 3159 times)

Offline JamesKW

Some WGs maybe feminists in the sense that they rely on no one and they are leading the life they want,or they maybe financing a university course to better themselves with other options.There are many who do it to fund debts and other addictions.

Offline winkywanky


Not sure it will ever be a thing of the past,directors may have to cover themselves more legally with consent forms etc.When you have many more women than jobs available and the return of success are so high, some may have to offer a little extra.


Yes, I think the producer AND the starlet will both sign forms stating that they slept together in order for her to get the role, and that both parties were happy with this. Both parties to have a copy, and neither would ever dream of bringing the whole sordid episode up in the future because it'd be in neither's interest  :D

Offline mrfishyfoo

Some WGs maybe feminists in the sense that they rely on no one and they are leading the life they want,or they maybe financing a university course to better themselves with other options. There are many who do it to fund debts and other addictions.

How can a whore rely on no-one ?? If she fucked for free then yes that would be correct BUT she doesn't therefore she is reliant on her punters for her income.

Some WGs maybe feminists in the sense that they rely on no one and they are leading the life they want,or they maybe financing a university course to better themselves with other options. There are many who do it to fund debts and other addictions.

As previously stated by MrWW  :hi: :hi: that makes them

......a victim, either of circumstance, or her own bad choice/decision.

Offline JamesKW

How can a whore rely on no-one ?? If she fucked for free then yes that would be correct BUT she doesn't therefore she is reliant on her punters for her income.

As previously stated by MrWW  :hi: :hi: that makes them

......a victim, either of circumstance, or her own bad choice/decision.


I mean't no one to support her,everyone is reliant on someone if they are paid by an employer,you could say they are self employed.

vw

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I mean't no one to support her,everyone is reliant on someone if they are paid by an employer,you could say they are self employed.

Lots have support in many forms , it was sweet to watch happypants supporting tailseeker.   :kissgirl:
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 02:36:31 pm by vw »

TailSeeker

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I agree that the #MeToo movement is doing a lot of good for womens' rights. But there has been LOTS of bandwagon-jumping and self-justification too, which is very detrimental to the cause (providing people can see and cut through the bullshit). The hysterical display (yes, it was hysterical) by Serena Williams where she justified her own bad behaviour by screaming from the rooftops that she was being discriminated against as a woman, and using her baby as justification for her 'doing no wrong'. Appalling. And in recent days, Shilpa Shetty saying that Qantas wouldn't let her take her hand luggage on-board because she's brown, whereas infact it was just too bloody big and not complying with airline regs. Women who do that do women no favours at all, and just make it look like #MeMeMe.

The worrying thing is that many women who read and see this crap are supporting those behaviours, which amounts to no less than special treatment because they are women. And that flies in the face of fairness and the legitimate fight for women's equality and being regarded purely on merit.

The Weinstein business I find interesting. The top echelons of Hollywood are/were a 'man's world' and he was an example of possibly the worst excesses...a hateful and nasty man. But did he actually rape anyone? I think he probably strayed into the area of sexual assault, but for the many complainants who are coming out (and good for them in doing so) there will be possibly even more who slept/sucked their way up the slippery pole. Of course it's appalling that many women felt compelled to do that, and that many women probably never had film careers because they refused to do that, but at the same time, some women will have been making it known that they would do anything to get that film part. But thank God that seems to be increasingly a thing of the past.

I think you're certainly right in some respects. But with the Serena Williams thing, she never said it was about her baby, but about a blood clotting disorder she has, so it's in her best interest of health to wear compression clothing. As for the shouting and swearing at the umpire... well men have been doing that for decades without any punishment on the court, and those men who are guilty came out in defence of her. But you also have shit like this External Link/Members Only which men never get code violations for.

As for the baggage and idiotic screaming from women about stupid stuff. You'll have no argument from me. The #MeToo movement is about more serious things, not whether you get an oversized carry on with you. Which quite frankly so many people, regardless of race or gender, are guilty of pushing the limits, and as such airlines are scaling back.

As for Weistein, and other high up men, it's been pointed out and joked about for years. Weinstein also used his position to blacklist women who spoke out against him.

It's an interesting thing, overwhelmingly it has been good, it's brought to the forefront a lot of behaviour that was long talked about Weinstein, Cosby, and Spacey (male victims in that case). I'm interested to see how Christain Renaldo's rape accusation plays out, especially as he outright admitted she said no and resisted.

You'll always have complete and utter arses. Like the TERFs, SWERFs, and man haters in the feminist movement. There's no getting away from them. But I'm hopeful the majority use their voice to shout against them eventually. Because we need them to, they belittle the movement with their petty squabbles.

Offline Ali Katt

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As for Weistein, and other high up men, it's been pointed out and joked about for years. Weinstein also used his position to blacklist women who spoke out against him.

It's an interesting thing, overwhelmingly it has been good, it's brought to the forefront a lot of behaviour that was long talked about Weinstein, Cosby, and Spacey (male victims in that case). I'm interested to see how Christain Renaldo's rape accusation plays out, especially as he outright admitted she said no and resisted.
Ronaldo has a great body especially for someone who weighs around 13 stone. Spacey is still occasionally a great actor, Cosby helped black people get on TV - no Cosby no Chris Rock or David Chappelle, Weinstein helped launch the careers of people like Tarrantino and Kevin Smith. Weird isn't it how these allegations didn't come out a decade or more ago, much like the case in america where she remembers a party she attended as a teenager in staggering detail. I can't remember what I had for breakfast a week ago.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 09:57:13 pm by Ali Katt »

TailSeeker

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Ronaldo has a great body especially for someone who weighs around 13 stone. Spacey is still occasionally a great actor, Cosby helped black people get on TV - no Cosby no Chris Rock or David Chappelle, Weinstein helped launch the careers of people like Tarrantino and Kevin Smith. Weird isn't it how these allegations didn't come out a decade or more ago, much like the case in america where she remembers a party she attended as a teenager in staggering detail. I can't remember what I had for breakfast a week ago.

Cosby, Weinstein and Spacey have all had rumours swirling around them for years. Cosby has been being called out out black comedians for decades, including Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle. And Cosby even admitted under oath that he put slipped the women sedatives.

With Christan Renaldo, I would suggest you read what he said in his own words. He freely admits the woman said no and resisted before he anally raped her without lube. 

"I took her from behind, the rough way . . . she said ‘no’, and ‘don’t do that’ several times. Afterwards I apologised."

There's no dressing that up, that's an admission that you raped someone. You can read more here:

External Link/Members Only

But there are other sources you can hunt down. He sodomised her without lube because she curled up and covered her vagina to stop him raping her. And she did go to the police the morning after, but is making it public now.

Remembering what you had for breakfast is very different from remembering rape. Our brains are actually designed to remember traumatic events better, it even overrides the general biological start to memories. Minute details in our lives blend, but rape or sexual assault is very different from a minute detail. Memories associated with negative emotions/associations are more strongly planted. It's a well noted and documented phenomenon is psychology.

Offline bearcat69

Cosby, Weinstein and Spacey have all had rumours swirling around them for years. Cosby has been being called out out black comedians for decades, including Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle. And Cosby even admitted under oath that he put slipped the women sedatives.

With Christan Renaldo, I would suggest you read what he said in his own words. He freely admits the woman said no and resisted before he anally raped her without lube. 

"I took her from behind, the rough way . . . she said ‘no’, and ‘don’t do that’ several times. Afterwards I apologised."

There's no dressing that up, that's an admission that you raped someone. You can read more here:

External Link/Members Only

But there are other sources you can hunt down. He sodomised her without lube because she curled up and covered her vagina to stop him raping her. And she did go to the police the morning after, but is making it public now.

Remembering what you had for breakfast is very different from remembering rape. Our brains are actually designed to remember traumatic events better, it even overrides the general biological start to memories. Minute details in our lives blend, but rape or sexual assault is very different from a minute detail. Memories associated with negative emotions/associations are more strongly planted. It's a well noted and documented phenomenon is psychology.

You are aware that the article you linked said that he 'allegedly' said that. His lawyers also describe it as 'journalistic fiction'. There's a finite but significant difference between him freely admitting something and between allegations.

People often change their memories on things when money is involved. It's a significant reason in my opinion why personal debt is currently so high... But I'll digress on that point. What I will say though is to be careful to read something you read in a newspaper as simple black and white fact. It's a journalist's job to manipulate the truth.

Sodomy is an interesting term. To many people sodomy is a crime against nature. An illegal act of immorality in itself.. Especially those of Roman Catholic faith. Did you know that Christiano Ronaldo is from Portugal, a predominantly Catholic country?

What's weird about this, is that I thought everybody thought Ronaldo was a homosexual, and that his wife is a beard. I guess people will talk less about that now. I wonder how Ronaldo feels about? I also wonder if he'll end up in prison for allegedly anally raping this woman? Something tells me probably not. It'll interesting to see how it plays out though.

Anyway, what I think is most sad in recent times in football was what happened with Gary Speed. The poor guy and his poor unfortunate family. My heart goes out to them.

Joss Whedon's unfortunate wife too. A sad story. That a man would abuse his position like that. Sad stuff. But under the guise of being a feminist too. That's just rubbing salt into the wound.

Bill Cosby though. I never liked him. Always gave me the creeps. Weinstein. Well, until a few years ago, I'd never even heard of him. What I did find interesting was Ian McKellen's view on the whole thing. Particularly the reaction he got from the Twitter crowd. Shame his opinion was squashed so harshly. I think he had valid point personally.

Offline Ali Katt

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Sodomy is an interesting term. To many people sodomy is a crime against nature. An illegal act of immorality in itself.. Especially those of Roman Catholic faith. Did you know that Christiano Ronaldo is from Portugal, a predominantly Catholic country?
That's some next level trolling.

Offline Ali Katt

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Cosby, Weinstein and Spacey have all had rumours swirling around them for years. Cosby has been being called out out black comedians for decades, including Chris Rock and Dave Chappelle. And Cosby even admitted under oath that he put slipped the women sedatives.
Pryor, Red Foxx, Murphy, Rudy Ray Moore and Cosby if it wasn't for them there wouldn't be black comedians making millions every year.

Quote
Remembering what you had for breakfast is very different from remembering rape. Our brains are actually designed to remember traumatic events better, it even overrides the general biological start to memories. Minute details in our lives blend, but rape or sexual assault is very different from a minute detail. Memories associated with negative emotions/associations are more strongly planted. It's a well noted and documented phenomenon is psychology.
The timing is insidious she suddenly remembers it after Trump came into power. Who did I see on the recent metoo protest none other than George Soros Sockpuppet Linda Sarsour.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 07:18:31 pm by Ali Katt »

Offline winkywanky

I think you're certainly right in some respects. But with the Serena Williams thing, she never said it was about her baby, but about a blood clotting disorder she has, so it's in her best interest of health to wear compression clothing. As for the shouting and swearing at the umpire... well men have been doing that for decades without any punishment on the court, and those men who are guilty came out in defence of her. But you also have shit like this External Link/Members Only which men never get code violations for.

As for the baggage and idiotic screaming from women about stupid stuff. You'll have no argument from me. The #MeToo movement is about more serious things, not whether you get an oversized carry on with you. Which quite frankly so many people, regardless of race or gender, are guilty of pushing the limits, and as such airlines are scaling back.

As for Weistein, and other high up men, it's been pointed out and joked about for years. Weinstein also used his position to blacklist women who spoke out against him.

It's an interesting thing, overwhelmingly it has been good, it's brought to the forefront a lot of behaviour that was long talked about Weinstein, Cosby, and Spacey (male victims in that case). I'm interested to see how Christain Renaldo's rape accusation plays out, especially as he outright admitted she said no and resisted.

You'll always have complete and utter arses. Like the TERFs, SWERFs, and man haters in the feminist movement. There's no getting away from them. But I'm hopeful the majority use their voice to shout against them eventually. Because we need them to, they belittle the movement with their petty squabbles.


No, as she was screaming at the poor umpire she actually said words to the effect of 'I would never lie, I have a baby, why would I lie?' - this was regarding the 'coaching from the sidelines'. By the way, I'm not necessarily blaming her for that, her coach may have just decided to do it without her requesting it. Nevertheless, with regard to the rules, she is culpable for the actions of her coach on court. And yes, I realise some men have got away with shit, however this particular umpire is well known for being a stickler for the rules, and actually applies them to men in exactly the same way as he applied them to her. So she was being discriminatory towards him if anything. She broke her racket, she had a screaming tantrum and she accused the umpire of cheating when all he'd done was apply the rules to her in exactly the same way as he applies them to everyone else. She was bang out of order and behaving like a fucking brat.

I totally agree that there needs to be a big change in society regarding women's rights, and I think much of it has been achieved already. More to come too, and that's good and as it should be. But I am heartily fed up with hearing about rape cases coming to court where the woman has engaged in normal and friendly chat with the 'rapist' by text for weeks after the alleged rape(s) (and the case has then been thrown out after making the guy's life a living hell), some women changing their minds about some sex they happily engaged in at the time and then wish they hadn't, and then taking the guy to court to 'cleanse themselves', some women demanding the same pay for 'the same job' when infact the guy has aeons more experience, some women constantly asking why 50% of all jobs (down a coal mine, in the Army, CEO of a Nasdaq top-50 company) aren't filled by women when probably only 10% of the applicants are female, it just beggars belief.

Women need to pick their fight carefully and correctly, and now is the time they can win it because society at large is on their side. Not just fling a load of shit because they're pissed off with their lot and expect to get what they want, on demand. There's plenty of men who're pissed off with their lot too, but sometimes that's just life, and not because you is a wimmin.

The relatively small number of women who do these things do the majority no favours at all, and it will just cause resentment. Everyone can see what's right now, just ask for it and bit by bit it'll come.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 11:00:39 pm by winkywanky »


TailSeeker

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No, as she was screaming at the poor umpire she actually said words to the effect of 'I would never lie, I have a baby, why would I lie?' - this was regarding the 'coaching from the sidelines'. By the way, I'm not necessarily blaming her for that, her coach may have just decided to do it without her requesting it. Nevertheless, with regard to the rules, she is culpable for the actions of her coach on court. And yes, I realise some men have got away with shit, however this particular umpire is well known for being a stickler for the rules, and actually applies them to men in exactly the same way as he applied them to her. So she was being discriminatory towards him if anything. She broke her racket, she had a screaming tantrum and she accused the umpire of cheating when all he'd done was apply the rules to her in exactly the same way as he applies them to everyone else. She was bang out of order and behaving like a fucking brat.

I totally agree that there needs to be a big change in society regarding women's rights, and I think much of it has been achieved already. More to come too, and that's good and as it should be. But I am heartily fed up with hearing about rape cases coming to court where the woman has engaged in normal and friendly chat with the 'rapist' by text for weeks after the alleged rape(s) (and the case has then been thrown out after making the guy's life a living hell), some women changing their minds about some sex they happily engaged in at the time and then wish they hadn't, and then taking the guy to court to 'cleanse themselves', some women demanding the same pay for 'the same job' when infact the guy has aeons more experience, some women constantly asking why 50% of all jobs (down a coal mine, in the Army, CEO of a Nasdaq top-50 company) aren't filled by women when probably only 10% of the applicants are female, it just beggars belief.

Women need to pick their fight carefully and correctly, and now is the time they can win it because society at large is on their side. Not just fling a load of shit because they're pissed off with their lot and expect to get what they want, on demand. There's plenty of men who're pissed off with their lot too, but sometimes that's just life, and not because you is a wimmin.

The relatively small number of women who do these things do the majority no favours at all, and it will just cause resentment. Everyone can see what's right now, just ask for it and bit by bit it'll come.

I guess it depends on the sources read. I didn't watch the match, but what I've read in multiple reports was that she called him a liar and a thief, never that she brought up her baby. But I'll see if I can find an upload of the match to verify what was said.

As for false claims about rape, they're the same percentage as most crimes, just 2%. If someone lies, certainly they should be punished, and harshly. I will certainly admit I have a bias to believe accusers, but I try to withhold judgement on the accused, however it is hard. That said there is the same on the other side of the fence. I mean Roman Polanski readily admitted drugging, raping and sodomising an underage girl to the courts, never saw jail time, fled the US to avoid it, and people still feel he should be forgiven and be allowed to have his life as normal.

But you certainly are right about demands for proportional representation when we don't have equal applications. And we should question why that is.

We've certainly moved forward quite a bit, but we definitely still have work to do. For me feminism isn't just about improving the situation for women, but also men. Parental leave matched between the genders, more flexible hours for men and greater acceptance of them wanting to be the primary care giver, more access to opportunities, domestic violence resources for men, more training for the police when dealing with male and female victims. A fucking law that acknowledges men can be raped by a woman, not just that rape is sticking a penis in someone.

I will also say this, I certainly stand up and counter women who scream bullshit, it doesn't help the cause. It just harms it. But it's important not to let those voices drown out the sane ones. Filter out/block/ignore the extremes, they feed off of a reaction, focus on the moderates.

And for those who state Bill Crosby as the reason black comedians have their work, I say Red Foxx, Nipsey Russell, Dick Gregory, Richard Pryor, and others who paved the way for black commedians before Bill Cosby. Granted there is some debate about Pryor, but I would say he's had more influence than Cosby.

Offline bearcat69

I will also say this, I certainly stand up and counter women who scream bullshit, it doesn't help the cause. It just harms it. But it's important not to let those voices drown out the sane ones. Filter out/block/ignore the extremes, they feed off of a reaction, focus on the moderates.

Funny, I've always found the more extreme voices the most interesting, the most important to think about and consider carefully. To understand where they are coming from and why they feel inclined to say what they are saying. I might not like or agree with what they have to say, and I do think that often perhaps too much gravitas is given to less educated opinions these days, and that can indeed often be harmful, but I'd always want to hear what everybody has to say. I would not want to see their opinions suppressed to the point where I do not hear them at all anymore.

Offline Ali Katt

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And for those who state Bill Crosby as the reason black comedians have their work, I say Red Foxx, Nipsey Russell, Dick Gregory, Richard Pryor, and others who paved the way for black commedians before Bill Cosby. Granted there is some debate about Pryor, but I would say he's had more influence than Cosby.
I forgot about Dick Gregory obviously a huge influence on Cosby. Cosby had a primetime long running TV series about middle class Blacks, he went against the po' black folks stereotypes.

Quote
We've certainly moved forward quite a bit, but we definitely still have work to do. For me feminism isn't just about improving the situation for women, but also men. Parental leave matched between the genders, more flexible hours for men and greater acceptance of them wanting to be the primary care giver, more access to opportunities, domestic violence resources for men, more training for the police when dealing with male and female victims. A fucking law that acknowledges men can be raped by a woman, not just that rape is sticking a penis in someone.
I think feminism like racial equality has become a garbled mess of ideology, pseudo science and feelings over facts. A lot of it encourages victim culture. Things like equal pay for the same job and amount of hours worked, I don't class as feminism just common sense.

Offline winkywanky

I guess it depends on the sources read. I didn't watch the match, but what I've read in multiple reports was that she called him a liar and a thief, never that she brought up her baby. But I'll see if I can find an upload of the match to verify what was said.

As for false claims about rape, they're the same percentage as most crimes, just 2%. If someone lies, certainly they should be punished, and harshly. I will certainly admit I have a bias to believe accusers, but I try to withhold judgement on the accused, however it is hard. That said there is the same on the other side of the fence. I mean Roman Polanski readily admitted drugging, raping and sodomising an underage girl to the courts, never saw jail time, fled the US to avoid it, and people still feel he should be forgiven and be allowed to have his life as normal.

But you certainly are right about demands for proportional representation when we don't have equal applications. And we should question why that is.

We've certainly moved forward quite a bit, but we definitely still have work to do. For me feminism isn't just about improving the situation for women, but also men. Parental leave matched between the genders, more flexible hours for men and greater acceptance of them wanting to be the primary care giver, more access to opportunities, domestic violence resources for men, more training for the police when dealing with male and female victims. A fucking law that acknowledges men can be raped by a woman, not just that rape is sticking a penis in someone.

I will also say this, I certainly stand up and counter women who scream bullshit, it doesn't help the cause. It just harms it. But it's important not to let those voices drown out the sane ones. Filter out/block/ignore the extremes, they feed off of a reaction, focus on the moderates.

And for those who state Bill Crosby as the reason black comedians have their work, I say Red Foxx, Nipsey Russell, Dick Gregory, Richard Pryor, and others who paved the way for black commedians before Bill Cosby. Granted there is some debate about Pryor, but I would say he's had more influence than Cosby.

I actually saw and heard footage of this, she said it. Completely bonkers, and a reason why she was being hysterical, not because she was made out to be 'just another hysterical woman'.

Yep, Roman Polanski should go to jail for what he did.

Rape on men by women...hmmm. It's a difficult one. Certainly, a female can be capable of being physically dominant over a male, with or without alcohol or drugs (on average, normally men are stronger than women but not always the case). So, a male's penis becomes erect because he's sexually excited (by definition), and then the female climbs aboard and rides his cock despite the man's brain resisting, and perhaps him shouting 'NO!' Is that technically rape? I guess, yes. Does the guy feel dirty and used afterwards, I don't know!  :D Sorry, I don't mean to trivialise rape but I guess there are situations where this has happened and the male might well feel violated. A lot of people would say well if he really didn't want it he would've lost his erection. But most males will admit to having a little brain in their willy which occasionally overcomes their big brain (to a large extent, explaining punting). That's a fascinating concept, and I wonder how a court might deal with that, both the judge and the jury? It's another example of one group demanding their rights which then changes the rules for everyone, which overall is normally for the good.

The conundrum regarding people like Cosby of course, is that in reality he certainly did do a lot of good for black standing in society, especially for black males. In essence, for middle America he was a black man you could trust. And then all this shit comes out about him. Similarly Savile, he undoubtedly raised millions for charity and did good works. So, was he really altruistically inclined but with an almost psychopathic need to abuse youngsters of both sexes (as well as cadavers), or was everything he did a front for his despicable, other behaviours? You couldn't imagine a bigger conflict.

But undoubtedly, the aftermath of Savile means that a LOT of other wrongdoing has been exposed, and it WILL help stop it happening again, certainly on such a scale. Anyone thinking they can get away with it will think twice. Just a shame that the despicable piece of shit only got found out after he'd had a hero's funeral.



Offline Ali Katt

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But undoubtedly, the aftermath of Savile means that a LOT of other wrongdoing has been exposed, and it WILL help stop it happening again, certainly on such a scale. Anyone thinking they can get away with it will think twice. Just a shame that the despicable piece of shit only got found out after he'd had a hero's funeral.
Luckilly they never built the statue in Roundhay.

Offline winkywanky

Luckilly they never built the statue in Roundhay.

In a way, it might've been good, then there could've been a big ceremony to hack it down  :hi: The symbolism would have been excellent, and a good way for society to deal with what the cunt did.

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I actually saw and heard footage of this, she said it. Completely bonkers, and a reason why she was being hysterical, not because she was made out to be 'just another hysterical woman'.

Yep, Roman Polanski should go to jail for what he did.

Rape on men by women...hmmm. It's a difficult one. Certainly, a female can be capable of being physically dominant over a male, with or without alcohol or drugs (on average, normally men are stronger than women but not always the case). So, a male's penis becomes erect because he's sexually excited (by definition), and then the female climbs aboard and rides his cock despite the man's brain resisting, and perhaps him shouting 'NO!' Is that technically rape? I guess, yes. Does the guy feel dirty and used afterwards, I don't know!  :D Sorry, I don't mean to trivialise rape but I guess there are situations where this has happened and the male might well feel violated. A lot of people would say well if he really didn't want it he would've lost his erection. But most males will admit to having a little brain in their willy which occasionally overcomes their big brain (to a large extent, explaining punting). That's a fascinating concept, and I wonder how a court might deal with that, both the judge and the jury? It's another example of one group demanding their rights which then changes the rules for everyone, which overall is normally for the good.

The conundrum regarding people like Cosby of course, is that in reality he certainly did do a lot of good for black standing in society, especially for black males. In essence, for middle America he was a black man you could trust. And then all this shit comes out about him. Similarly Savile, he undoubtedly raised millions for charity and did good works. So, was he really altruistically inclined but with an almost psychopathic need to abuse youngsters of both sexes (as well as cadavers), or was everything he did a front for his despicable, other behaviours? You couldn't imagine a bigger conflict.

But undoubtedly, the aftermath of Savile means that a LOT of other wrongdoing has been exposed, and it WILL help stop it happening again, certainly on such a scale. Anyone thinking they can get away with it will think twice. Just a shame that the despicable piece of shit only got found out after he'd had a hero's funeral.

I will just bring up one thing here, why use the word hysterical? Do you use that when describing male sports stars who do similar? Plenty have done the same, in tennis and other sports. But I cannot remember a single instance where in media they're been called hysterical. Usually it's just passionate, angry, over reacting, if anything. Novak Djokovic has smashed racket after racket and never been called hysterical.

It is certainly possible to respond physically without wanting it mentally. It's in part a big reason why so many don't report, after not being believed. I mean guys can get random erections all the time.why disbelieve just because they stayed hard?

Look at any serial rapist, or even murder, most people who know them would say that they seemed like a nice person, average Joe next door. We all want to believe they have a sign on their forehead announcing how evil they are, but they don't. And as a common trope says, power corrupts. And in places like Hollywood and other entertainment it's long been hushed up. So why would they expect it to be any different now?

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I actually saw and heard footage of this, she said it. Completely bonkers, and a reason why she was being hysterical, not because she was made out to be 'just another hysterical woman'.

Yep, Roman Polanski should go to jail for what he did.

Rape on men by women...hmmm. It's a difficult one. Certainly, a female can be capable of being physically dominant over a male, with or without alcohol or drugs (on average, normally men are stronger than women but not always the case). So, a male's penis becomes erect because he's sexually excited (by definition), and then the female climbs aboard and rides his cock despite the man's brain resisting, and perhaps him shouting 'NO!' Is that technically rape? I guess, yes. Does the guy feel dirty and used afterwards, I don't know!  :D Sorry, I don't mean to trivialise rape but I guess there are situations where this has happened and the male might well feel violated. A lot of people would say well if he really didn't want it he would've lost his erection. But most males will admit to having a little brain in their willy which occasionally overcomes their big brain (to a large extent, explaining punting). That's a fascinating concept, and I wonder how a court might deal with that, both the judge and the jury? It's another example of one group demanding their rights which then changes the rules for everyone, which overall is normally for the good.

The conundrum regarding people like Cosby of course, is that in reality he certainly did do a lot of good for black standing in society, especially for black males. In essence, for middle America he was a black man you could trust. And then all this shit comes out about him. Similarly Savile, he undoubtedly raised millions for charity and did good works. So, was he really altruistically inclined but with an almost psychopathic need to abuse youngsters of both sexes (as well as cadavers), or was everything he did a front for his despicable, other behaviours? You couldn't imagine a bigger conflict.

But undoubtedly, the aftermath of Savile means that a LOT of other wrongdoing has been exposed, and it WILL help stop it happening again, certainly on such a scale. Anyone thinking they can get away with it will think twice. Just a shame that the despicable piece of shit only got found out after he'd had a hero's funeral.

I will just bring up one thing here, why use the word hysterical? Do you use that when describing male sports stars who do similar? Plenty have done the same, in tennis and other sports. But I cannot remember a single instance where in media they're been called hysterical. Usually it's just passionate, angry, over reacting, if anything. Novak Djokovic has smashed racket after racket and never been called hysterical.

It is certainly possible to respond physically without wanting it mentally. It's in part a big reason why so many don't report, after not being believed. I mean guys can get random erections all the time.why disbelieve just because they stayed hard?

Look at any serial rapist, or even murder, most people who know them would say that they seemed like a nice person, average Joe next door. We all want to believe they have a sign on their forehead announcing how evil they are, but they don't. And as a common trope says, power corrupts. And in places like Hollywood and other entertainment it's long been hushed up. So why would they expect it to be any different now?

Offline winkywanky

I will just bring up one thing here, why use the word hysterical? Do you use that when describing male sports stars who do similar? Plenty have done the same, in tennis and other sports. But I cannot remember a single instance where in media they're been called hysterical. Usually it's just passionate, angry, over reacting, if anything. Novak Djokovic has smashed racket after racket and never been called hysterical.

It is certainly possible to respond physically without wanting it mentally. It's in part a big reason why so many don't report, after not being believed. I mean guys can get random erections all the time.why disbelieve just because they stayed hard?

Look at any serial rapist, or even murder, most people who know them would say that they seemed like a nice person, average Joe next door. We all want to believe they have a sign on their forehead announcing how evil they are, but they don't. And as a common trope says, power corrupts. And in places like Hollywood and other entertainment it's long been hushed up. So why would they expect it to be any different now?


Personally I would use the word hysterical about a male behaving like Williams did, and a perfect example of that would be the way McEnroe used to be. He'd frequently get hysterical, screaming and shouting abuse personally and directly at the umpire, which would of course upset the game of his opponent. And he was frequently called a brat in all the press (quite rightly I think, and he would even admit that now). But I get that some men would use the word specifically directed towards women, in the sense of 'that hysterical woman'.

Djokovic smashing his racket (or indeed, Williams) is not what I'd call hysterical - that's a momentary flash of anger, directed at himself more than anyone or anything else. What Williams did, and McEnroe before her (and there have been others of course), was to conduct a lengthy and personal abusive, shouted tirade against the umpire, who was behaving perfectly reasonably. It was out of control behaviour. I'd say specifically, that is hysterical.

Regarding the sexually-abused man receiving clearly unwanted sexual activity whilst in charge of a boner, I would posit that in general, he would be met with scepticism because he maintained that erection. Be it a straw poll taken in the street from both men and women, or in some place of officialdom, like a court. In the same way that women can be routinely subject to ingrained prejudice, so can men, for 'not being a man'.

So the point I made about women fighting for their rights, leading to others eventually receiving fairer treatment, I think holds true. On balance women will be subject to discrimination more than men, but those men that are will also be helped by women's fight.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 11:24:08 am by winkywanky »

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Personally I would use the word hysterical about a male behaving like Williams did, and a perfect example of that would be the way McEnroe used to be. He'd frequently get hysterical, screaming and shouting abuse personally and directly at the umpire, which would of course upset the game of his opponent. And he was frequently called a brat in all the press (quite rightly I think, and he would even admit that now). But I get that some men would use the word specifically directed towards women, in the sense of 'that hysterical woman'.
McEnroe was also in the papers again a few years ago for saying male tennis players could beat female tennis players. He is undoubtedly right, I would love to see Serena Will against John Isner.

Offline winkywanky

Yes, of course a male player of a certain standard would beat a female player of the corresponding standard in the women's game, apart from anything else the man would be faster and stronger. Doesn't mean to say the Men's game is necessarily more entertaining than the Women's game, although I can barely watch a Women's match these days because of all the grunting (and yes, they are worse for that than the Men).

But in this vein, do you remember the grudge match between Bobby Riggs and Billie-Jean King in the 80s (I think)? Riggs was around 20yrs senior to King and challenged her to a match. I believe she'd just retired from international Tennis but she was still playing well, and fit. It was a big thing at the time, Women's Lib and all that. He did actually beat her quite convincingly, IIRC?


*EDIT: it was 1973 and he was 55, she was 29. Makes it all the more impressive on his part really.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 04:10:16 pm by winkywanky »

Offline winkywanky

There's actually a very good film of the contest called Battle of the Sexes, I've seen it.

Offline winkywanky

NO! I've got it totally wrong!!  :D

Riggs beat Margaret Court, and then later that year King stuffed Riggs! But with a 26yr difference. So I think Court had just retired, King was still playing at top level.

Sorry, my brain has retired  :lol:

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Yes, of course a male player of a certain standard would beat a female player of the corresponding standard in the women's game, apart from anything else the man would be faster and stronger. Doesn't mean to say the Men's game is necessarily more entertaining than the Women's game, although I can barely watch a Women's match these days because of all the grunting (and yes, they are worse for that than the Men).

But in this vein, do you remember the grudge match between Bobby Riggs and Billie-Jean King in the 80s (I think)? Riggs was around 20yrs senior to King and challenged her to a match. I believe she'd just retired from international Tennis but she was still playing well, and fit. It was a big thing at the time, Women's Lib and all that. He did actually beat her quite convincingly, IIRC?


*EDIT: it was 1973 and he was 55, she was 29. Makes it all the more impressive on his part really.
That was pretty much what McEnroe said and he was called sexist. I'm all for equality, but I don't want to see female bricklayers for the sake of some quota or likewise there's a reason why most matrons are female - certain genders are just better at certain roles.

Sorry, I have heard about the match, but not seen it. I've only really been watching tennis since the Agassi days and even then on and off.

Offline winkywanky

That was pretty much what McEnroe said and he was called sexist. I'm all for equality, but I don't want to see female bricklayers for the sake of some quota or likewise there's a reason why most matrons are female - certain genders are just better at certain roles.

Sorry, I have heard about the match, but not seen it. I've only really been watching tennis since the Agassi days and even then on and off.

I suppose the context of his response matters too, but it's simply the case that men will be stronger/faster than women. It doesn't mean that top women have to be paid less than top men, in whatever sport it is, the women's version can be just as entertaining as the men's (for instance, I prefer women's football to men's because there's less handbags!)

Equality and no discrimination against women are noble goals and one day we'll get there. But for women to say they're always physically as good/strong as men is complete bollocks. I mean, if you wanted to get all primeval about it you'd just slap your woman around a bit, drag her off to the bedroom and have whatever way you wanted with her. I thought women wanted men to be getting away from that kind of thing? #MeToo turning into #MeMeMe. It's complete bollocks.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 04:40:06 pm by winkywanky »

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Yes, of course a male player of a certain standard would beat a female player of the corresponding standard in the women's game, apart from anything else the man would be faster and stronger. Doesn't mean to say the Men's game is necessarily more entertaining than the Women's game, although I can barely watch a Women's match these days because of all the grunting (and yes, they are worse for that than the Men).

But in this vein, do you remember the grudge match between Bobby Riggs and Billie-Jean King in the 80s (I think)? Riggs was around 20yrs senior to King and challenged her to a match. I believe she'd just retired from international Tennis but she was still playing well, and fit. It was a big thing at the time, Women's Lib and all that. He did actually beat her quite convincingly, IIRC?


*EDIT: it was 1973 and he was 55, she was 29. Makes it all the more impressive on his part really.

King won the match in three straight sets in 1973. Margaret Court was who he beat earlier the same year two straight sets.

People claimed it was an age thing, but Margaret was only 30, so hardly that much of an age gap between his opponents.

Also do not forget the 1928 Olympics, when women could compete in the 800m for the first time, eye witness reports actually claim that several of the women beat the world records set by men. But was reported as them collapsing and fainting with none of them finishing. I would actually argue that women entering sports has made men perform better.

Or that the Japanese female football team routinely out performs the men's team.

It is certainly right that men generally have a physical advantage, when comparing like for like, when you move away from that it becomes more difficult. The layout of muscles and skeletal structure gives men a physical advantage. But it's not universal, it is all relative.

Competition certainly drives all of us to do better.

(Also the women's grunting isn't worse than the men's, it's nearly the same, but arguably men can be worse, but it's less noticeable because it's expected as men have been playing tennis for longer, so it's become normalised in a way that it hasn't for women. Still find it annoying in the women's matches, but they are not more vocal).

Offline winkywanky

Also do not forget the 1928 Olympics, when women could compete in the 800m for the first time, eye witness reports actually claim that several of the women beat the world records set by men. But was reported as them collapsing and fainting with none of them finishing. I would actually argue that women entering sports has made men perform better.

Or that the Japanese female football team routinely out performs the men's team.

It is certainly right that men generally have a physical advantage, when comparing like for like, when you move away from that it becomes more difficult. The layout of muscles and skeletal structure gives men a physical advantage. But it's not universal, it is all relative.

Competition certainly drives all of us to do better.

(Also the women's grunting isn't worse than the men's, it's nearly the same, but arguably men can be worse, but it's less noticeable because it's expected as men have been playing tennis for longer, so it's become normalised in a way that it hasn't for women. Still find it annoying in the women's matches, but they are not more vocal).

Offline freeze44

I suppose the context of his response matters too, but it's simply the case that men will be stronger/faster than women. It doesn't mean that top women have to be paid less than top men, in whatever sport it is, the women's version can be just as entertaining as the men's (for instance, I prefer women's football to men's because there's less handbags!)

Equality and no discrimination against women are noble goals and one day we'll get there. But for women to say they're always physically as good/strong as men is complete bollocks. I mean, if you wanted to get all primeval about it you'd just slap your woman around a bit, drag her off to the bedroom and have whatever way you wanted with her. I thought women wanted men to be getting away from that kind of thing? #MeToo turning into #MeMeMe. It's complete bollocks.

I think the pay for sports should be based on the popularity. Men will get paid more then as they are mostly better, faster, stronger than the women so it's better to watch.

I don't agree with the equality agenda as it's both unrealistic and dumbs down. For example, the jobs where strength is central will be done better by men and in contrast the caring roles are done better by women and pay for both sets should reflect their skills.

Offline winkywanky

Also do not forget the 1928 Olympics, when women could compete in the 800m for the first time, eye witness reports actually claim that several of the women beat the world records set by men. But was reported as them collapsing and fainting with none of them finishing. I would actually argue that women entering sports has made men perform better.

Or that the Japanese female football team routinely out performs the men's team.

It is certainly right that men generally have a physical advantage, when comparing like for like, when you move away from that it becomes more difficult. The layout of muscles and skeletal structure gives men a physical advantage. But it's not universal, it is all relative.

Competition certainly drives all of us to do better.

(Also the women's grunting isn't worse than the men's, it's nearly the same, but arguably men can be worse, but it's less noticeable because it's expected as men have been playing tennis for longer, so it's become normalised in a way that it hasn't for women. Still find it annoying in the women's matches, but they are not more vocal).

I can understand theoretically how women competing against men all those years ago might've spurred men onto new records. It's possible that women snapping at their heels would do this - we're genetically no different now compared with a few decades ago, yet training techniques and physiological knowledge have come on leaps and bounds, so comparing records now and then, it's obvious that there were big gains to be made, and have been made. Although at the same time, if you compared Jesse Owens with today's sprinters, had he had modern shoes and been running on a modern surface instead of a cinder track, he'd probably be competitive because he was just an amazing physical specimen. But as for women actually beating the men in the 800m, and then their results completely lied about and declared null and void, I find very hard to believe. There simply must be some evidence of this around somewhere...I mean real evidence. Thousands of people in the stands cannot just have been silenced!

The physical disparity between men and women is not so much about 'layout of muscles and skeletal structure' - men and women have exactly the same muscle groups, a slightly different skeletal structure owing to childbirth and a different fat composition (whic can be modified out by training) - it's mainly to do with testosterone, and the training you can do with that. Men possess a lot more testosterone than women so adaptation to training is much enhanced.

With clean athletes at the very highest level these days, there is not an awful lot of difference between men and women. But there is a difference. You have to look at freaks of nature (I don't mean that in a nasty way) to find female athletes like Caster Semenya who have male-like levels of testosterone to enable her to be a worldbeater in the field of women's sport.

With sports where there is more reliance on skill and non-physical capabilities, then women can compete equally with men. Why not? But it's a fact of life that men are physically stronger than women, there's no misogyny in saying that, certainly not on my part, anyway.

As for women's grunting in tennis, yes, the men do it too (and I'm sure there's a level of gamesmanship in that) but although I don't watch a lot of tennis apart from when Wimbledon comes around, it seems to me that with the women it's a lot more pronounced, almost for effect. I can't be categorical on that though!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 01:30:57 pm by winkywanky »

Offline winkywanky

I think the pay for sports should be based on the popularity. Men will get paid more then as they are mostly better, faster, stronger than the women so it's better to watch.

I don't agree with the equality agenda as it's both unrealistic and dumbs down. For example, the jobs where strength is central will be done better by men and in contrast the caring roles are done better by women and pay for both sets should reflect their skills.

I'd disagree with you there.

Take football: if a top women's team played a top men's team, the men would easily win. This would be a combination of the physical disparity and the fact that the men's game has evolved over a much longer time than the women's.

But...is a match between two top men's teams more entertaining than a match between two top women's teams? I would say not necessarily! And for reasons stated earlier, I find it very hard to watch men's football because of all the whingeing, cheating, diving, nastiness and all-round shit.

Regarding pay of top female sports stars and teams, and top male sports stars and teams, there are two drivers at play. The first is TV rights. The more people watching, the more advertising revenue will be generated, so all things being equal the men's sport will probably (currently) generate more.

The second driver is society-led. Does society think that top women should be paid the same as top men? If society does, then that's why Wimbledon now pays (I think?) the ladies' winner the same as the mens' winner. (And for the record, I think the argument about men should be paid more than the women because they play 5 sets instead of 3 is spurious). I think what will start to happen is that the governing bodies of major sports will gradually expect the top competitions of their sport to have equal purses.

Offline freeze44

I'd disagree with you there.

Take football: if a top women's team played a top men's team, the men would easily win. This would be a combination of the physical disparity and the fact that the men's game has evolved over a much longer time than the women's.

But...is a match between two top men's teams more entertaining than a match between two top women's teams? I would say not necessarily! And for reasons stated earlier, I find it very hard to watch men's football because of all the whingeing, cheating, diving, nastiness and all-round shit.

Regarding pay of top female sports stars and teams, and top male sports stars and teams, there are two drivers at play. The first is TV rights. The more people watching, the more advertising revenue will be generated, so all things being equal the men's sport will probably (currently) generate more.

The second driver is society-led. Does society think that top women should be paid the same as top men? If society does, then that's why Wimbledon now pays (I think?) the ladies' winner the same as the mens' winner. (And for the record, I think the argument about men should be paid more than the women because they play 5 sets instead of 3 is spurious). I think what will start to happen is that the governing bodies of major sports will gradually expect the top competitions of their sport to have equal purses.

Not against the women earning the same but it should be based on popularity. Take wimbledon...the mens final brings in much more fans/tv rights so the men should get paid more.

To give a different example, take punting....women will always get more work than male wg's as they are in higher demand and get paid more. It's not going to change and trying to manipulate the market by trying to push an equality agenda is flawed.

Offline winkywanky

I think it only a matter of time before some women's sports gets as much airtime as the men's, and the viewing figures become similar.

Offline winkywanky

...just to clarify, my point of disagreement was that I think the men's game (of whatever) is not necessarily better to watch purely because the men are 'better/faster/stronger'.

I think the entertainment value is not just about absolute physical performance, it's also about the way it's played.

But yes, it's the money that counts (TV rights etc) in terms of top players' pay, certainly currently. But some sports are introducing what might be called positive discrimination by equalising men's and women's pay, whether at the insistence of the sport's governing body, or whether by event/tournament organiser's choice.

Offline freeze44

...just to clarify, my point of disagreement was that I think the men's game (of whatever) is not necessarily better to watch purely because the men are 'better/faster/stronger'.

I think the entertainment value is not just about absolute physical performance, it's also about the way it's played.

But yes, it's the money that counts (TV rights etc) in terms of top players' pay, certainly currently. But some sports are introducing what might be called positive discrimination by equalising men's and women's pay, whether at the insistence of the sport's governing body, or whether by event/tournament organiser's choice.

Yeah I know where your coming from and do agree that where pay is less just because your a woman is wrong.

Thing to me is that as men and women are different if women were rewarded for the jobs the excel at then things would be better. I think gymnastics is a good example where watching women is better.

Suppose I'm just concerned about the agenda that fails to recognise that men do the hard jobs, the dying in wars and paying of the bills mostly and feminism fails to accept that.

Offline winkywanky

I agree with your last point, and in reality how many women would choose to be front-line grunts at risk of getting shot at? (By the way, I wouldn't).

The thing that winds me up is that every industry now seems to think that if there isn't 50% women in any particular job role, then they're not trying hard enough to attract women. That thinking is all wrong.

What there needs to be is rigorous adherence to equal opportunity.

But that doesn't mean giving boys dolls to play with and girls, model tanks and soldiers. Have a toybox and let the kid take out the toy they're interested in. The toy the kid chooses isn't all to do with 'social norms and social engineering', it has mainly to do with the way boys and girls are.

We risk alienating many, many girls and women by 'expecting' them to be just like boys, or at least, creating that impression. And we also very much risk emasculating boys by overlooking them in the pursuit of the above.

Offline Ali Katt

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The physical disparity between men and women is not so much about 'layout of muscles and skeletal structure' - men and women have exactly the same muscle groups, a slightly different skeletal structure owing to childbirth and a different fat composition (whic can be modified out by training) - it's mainly to do with testosterone, and the training you can do with that. Men possess a lot more testosterone than women so adaptation to training is much enhanced.

With clean athletes at the very highest level these days, there is not an awful lot of difference between men and women. But there is a difference. You have to look at freaks of nature (I don't mean that in a nasty way) to find female athletes like Caster Semenya who have male-like levels of testosterone to enable her to be a worldbeater in the field of women's sport.

With sports where there is more reliance on skill and non-physical capabilities, then women can compete equally with men. Why not? But it's a fact of life that men are physically stronger than women, there's no misogyny in saying that, certainly not on my part, anyway.

I was going to mention testosterone as well as males on average being more competitive and more aggressive. This can be seen in all forms of life. That's not to say some women aren't as aggressive and competitive as men or as ambitious. The whole point was I don't want to see certain minority groups given preferential treatment due to being "different", for example there's a reason why most olympic swimmers are white (less dense bone structure?) and most olympic runners seem to be black (stronger leg muscles? Better barefoot runners?).

I think it only a matter of time before some women's sports gets as much airtime as the men's, and the viewing figures become similar.
There premier league has over a billion viewers worldwide, I'm sure the figures are similar for title fight boxing. How many watch women's boxing and women's football - fuck all. I can't see this changing. As Freeze says the pay is representative of how many people watch it and how much the league are worth, there's a reason why a top premiership female player earns around a junior managers wage in London and not a millionaire's wage.

Offline winkywanky

I was going to mention testosterone as well as males on average being more competitive and more aggressive. This can be seen in all forms of life. That's not to say some women aren't as aggressive and competitive as men or as ambitious. The whole point was I don't want to see certain minority groups given preferential treatment due to being "different", for example there's a reason why most olympic swimmers are white (less dense bone structure?) and most olympic runners seem to be black (stronger leg muscles? Better barefoot runners?).
There premier league has over a billion viewers worldwide, I'm sure the figures are similar for title fight boxing. How many watch women's boxing and women's football - fuck all. I can't see this changing. As Freeze says the pay is representative of how many people watch it and how much the league are worth, there's a reason why a top premiership female player earns around a junior managers wage in London and not a millionaire's wage.

Re: the black swimmers thing, I thought the old adage about black bodies not swimming as well as white was discredited? I think it's more to do with the fact that there are virtually no black role models in swimming?

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Re: the black swimmers thing, I thought the old adage about black bodies not swimming as well as white was discredited? I think it's more to do with the fact that there are virtually no black role models in swimming?
The latter I find hard to believe. Why are there very few famous Black chess players? or Formula 1 drivers? or Water polo players? It may sound racist, but some races are just better at certain skillsets, I don't expect to see a black man riding the winning horse in the Grand National, likewise it seems to be mainly black people winning running medals in the olympics for Britain.

Offline winkywanky

The latter I find hard to believe. Why are there very few famous Black chess players? or Formula 1 drivers? or Water polo players? It may sound racist, but some races are just better at certain skillsets, I don't expect to see a black man riding the winning horse in the Grand National, likewise it seems to be mainly black people winning running medals in the olympics for Britain.


Chess players, again, no role models. Formula One has a lot to do with financial background, having the money to have a childhood karting career etc. Of course Lewis Hamilton is mixed race, and he's about to win the world championship! But he comes from a well-funded background, and he's called Lewis! And I saw on telly the other day, there's another black/mixed race British lad who's about to burst on the scene very soon (can't remember his name).

I think in sheer athletic terms there may be a slight athletic advantage for those of African descent living here. I think at least part of that will be down to selective breeding of slaves (yes, that's potentially offensive, but yes, that's what happened).

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Chess players, again, no role models. Formula One has a lot to do with financial background, having the money to have a childhood karting career etc. Of course Lewis Hamilton is mixed race, and he's about to win the world championship! But he comes from a well-funded background, and he's called Lewis! And I saw on telly the other day, there's another black/mixed race British lad who's about to burst on the scene very soon (can't remember his name).

I think in sheer athletic terms there may be a slight athletic advantage for those of African descent living here. I think at least part of that will be down to selective breeding of slaves (yes, that's potentially offensive, but yes, that's what happened).
I do agree to an extent. I'm happy to be told I am wrong with chess playing a large number of chess masters seem to be Jewish or Indian, I think it might be down to pushy parents, as well as possibly some deep level focus issue on small details, almost in an OCD way. Once again possibly racist, but many black people make great boxers due to being more aggressive on average than whites or possibly core body strength - that said there's no hard or fast rules.

With Hamilton, I know a lot of people find it an inconvenient truth (people like David Lammy), but there are many incredibly wealthy black families, so I don't think it is just done to money although F1 like Polo and golf is "pay to play".

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I can understand theoretically how women competing against men all those years ago might've spurred men onto new records. It's possible that women snapping at their heels would do this - we're genetically no different now compared with a few decades ago, yet training techniques and physiological knowledge have come on leaps and bounds, so comparing records now and then, it's obvious that there were big gains to be made, and have been made. Although at the same time, if you compared Jesse Owens with today's sprinters, had he had modern shoes and been running on a modern surface instead of a cinder track, he'd probably be competitive because he was just an amazing physical specimen. But as for women actually beating the men in the 800m, and then their results completely lied about and declared null and void, I find very hard to believe. There simply must be some evidence of this around somewhere...I mean real evidence. Thousands of people in the stands cannot just have been silenced!

The physical disparity between men and women is not so much about 'layout of muscles and skeletal structure' - men and women have exactly the same muscle groups, a slightly different skeletal structure owing to childbirth and a different fat composition (whic can be modified out by training) - it's mainly to do with testosterone, and the training you can do with that. Men possess a lot more testosterone than women so adaptation to training is much enhanced.

With clean athletes at the very highest level these days, there is not an awful lot of difference between men and women. But there is a difference. You have to look at freaks of nature (I don't mean that in a nasty way) to find female athletes like Caster Semenya who have male-like levels of testosterone to enable her to be a worldbeater in the field of women's sport.

With sports where there is more reliance on skill and non-physical capabilities, then women can compete equally with men. Why not? But it's a fact of life that men are physically stronger than women, there's no misogyny in saying that, certainly not on my part, anyway.

As for women's grunting in tennis, yes, the men do it too (and I'm sure there's a level of gamesmanship in that) but although I don't watch a lot of tennis apart from when Wimbledon comes around, it seems to me that with the women it's a lot more pronounced, almost for effect. I can't be categorical on that though!

Feel free to Google it, little went out, but it is telling that women were frequently let in and then shut out of sports in the past.

It's not just testosterone. It's well noted that women, due to breasts, have a different layout of chest muscles. Which is why women have less upper body strength than similar men. It does seem to be evolutionary, prehistoric women had insane arm strength, and prehistoric men were more leg based (External Link/Members Only a guardian article that simplifies the research).

I do not think there is any misogyny in saying men are generally stronger than women, as in my last reply, the way we are built is such. That is the way genetics have led the body to build muscle and bones.

As for the grunting, I certainly notice it a lot in men's tennis, the same way I notice men grunting an awful lot more at the gym in the weights section. It may just be that you're used to hearing it, so you don't notice it as much.

Offline winkywanky

Feel free to Google it, little went out, but it is telling that women were frequently let in and then shut out of sports in the past.

It's not just testosterone. It's well noted that women, due to breasts, have a different layout of chest muscles. Which is why women have less upper body strength than similar men. It does seem to be evolutionary, prehistoric women had insane arm strength, and prehistoric men were more leg based (External Link/Members Only a guardian article that simplifies the research).

I do not think there is any misogyny in saying men are generally stronger than women, as in my last reply, the way we are built is such. That is the way genetics have led the body to build muscle and bones.

As for the grunting, I certainly notice it a lot in men's tennis, the same way I notice men grunting an awful lot more at the gym in the weights section. It may just be that you're used to hearing it, so you don't notice it as much.


I've Googled. I think you'd agree, the Runner's World article seems to provide a fair description of what happened, certainly in its tone as well as the detail. With the subsequent banning of the 800m race in future Olympics until it's reintroduction over 3 decades later, what that shows (and its no surprise whatsoever) is the level of discrimination against women at that time, and what a male dominate society expected of women at that time.

That distance had only just been introduced for women, there would've been very few women involved in competitive sport anyway compared with today, and training for women would've been even less enlightened than it was for men in those days. So of course the women would've looked exhausted at the end of 800m, and one or two of them may have fallen over. That's no different from today of course, you push yourself to your limit based on what you've already achieved, and if that's a very small pool of athletes who've only just started racing an event, with probably crap training and nutrition, then it'll all look a bit silly compared (unfairly) with the men in the same 800m event. And the thing about the 800m is that it's not really a distance event, it's in that grey area between a sprint and endurance event, very, very tough. Add all this together and you get a bunch of ill-prepared athletes with only a couple of them able to compete meaningfully, the others look like a ragtag bunch.

And the ignorant comments about women's reproductivity being affected (and in therefore losing their 'usefulness' in society as childbearers) are based in truth to some extent: women athletes who are pushed to their limits in training will frequently stop menstruating. To an unenlightened public of the time this would've been rather alarming! Of course, there's no long term damage and top female athletes of today (and then) will recover their femininity (I use the term ironically, as an indicator of the gormless views of the time).

I can't find any evidence of women challenging men's times and therefore being seen as a threat to male ego, hence them being shunned from many sports.

Every so often (just as with men) a top female athlete can emerge who transcends all expectation and can actually challenge some top men. Please spend 20mins Googling Beryl Burton, she was amazing. But as I say, unless there's some genetic freakery going on, in top sport men will always out-strength and out-endure women (the endurance thing slightly less so, and that has a lot to do with the way women hold and use fat, as well as the way women have developed over 10s of 1000s of years within the male species).

It's no big deal, these days top women are just as amazing as men and (I think) are just as good to watch. That's because in virtually every sport there's now a large pool of female talent, and sports science for women (which is slightly different from men) is highly evolved.

But without drugs or genetic engineering (or maybe a few more thousands of years of evolution where the human species goes down a different path) women cannot compete meaningfully in the same races as men.

Offline prophethezikah

I think you will find that a great number of feminists support legalizing prostitution and de-stigmatizing sex work.

Offline Kinkykate78

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I've Googled. I think you'd agree, the Runner's World article seems to provide a fair description of what happened, certainly in its tone as well as the detail. With the subsequent banning of the 800m race in future Olympics until it's reintroduction over 3 decades later, what that shows (and its no surprise whatsoever) is the level of discrimination against women at that time, and what a male dominate society expected of women at that time.

That distance had only just been introduced for women, there would've been very few women involved in competitive sport anyway compared with today, and training for women would've been even less enlightened than it was for men in those days. So of course the women would've looked exhausted at the end of 800m, and one or two of them may have fallen over. That's no different from today of course, you push yourself to your limit based on what you've already achieved, and if that's a very small pool of athletes who've only just started racing an event, with probably crap training and nutrition, then it'll all look a bit silly compared (unfairly) with the men in the same 800m event. And the thing about the 800m is that it's not really a distance event, it's in that grey area between a sprint and endurance event, very, very tough. Add all this together and you get a bunch of ill-prepared athletes with only a couple of them able to compete meaningfully, the others look like a ragtag bunch.

And the ignorant comments about women's reproductivity being affected (and in therefore losing their 'usefulness' in society as childbearers) are based in truth to some extent: women athletes who are pushed to their limits in training will frequently stop menstruating. To an unenlightened public of the time this would've been rather alarming! Of course, there's no long term damage and top female athletes of today (and then) will recover their femininity (I use the term ironically, as an indicator of the gormless views of the time).

I can't find any evidence of women challenging men's times and therefore being seen as a threat to male ego, hence them being shunned from many sports.

Every so often (just as with men) a top female athlete can emerge who transcends all expectation and can actually challenge some top men. Please spend 20mins Googling Beryl Burton, she was amazing. But as I say, unless there's some genetic freakery going on, in top sport men will always out-strength and out-endure women (the endurance thing slightly less so, and that has a lot to do with the way women hold and use fat, as well as the way women have developed over 10s of 1000s of years within the male species).

It's no big deal, these days top women are just as amazing as men and (I think) are just as good to watch. That's because in virtually every sport there's now a large pool of female talent, and sports science for women (which is slightly different from men) is highly evolved.

But without drugs or genetic engineering (or maybe a few more thousands of years of evolution where the human species goes down a different path) women cannot compete meaningfully in the same races as men.

Which is why stuff like trans women competing in most women’s sports is batshit crazy (and apparently makes me bigoted for calling it out).  :unknown:

Offline winkywanky

That's a separate issue, but I agree wholeheartedly.

Offline Ali Katt

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Which is why stuff like trans women competing in most women’s sports is batshit crazy (and apparently makes me bigoted for calling it out).  :unknown:
And it makes for awkward conversation in the locker rooms for them.

Offline winkywanky

It does when they want to compare cock sizes  :D