How do you rate these women?

[Jonestown]

Now with the advent of social media and the internet we tend to have global views of what is attractive, which is wrong and now people all over the place are getting surgery to take to fit that standard.

Can’t help but notice that of late the filtered photos of people used on social media are more and more being used in newspaper articles about these people. No doubt it is at least partially lazy reporters just lifting the photos from the social media accounts, but it seems like a further step in people moving further away from reality

[sensualencounter]

This post is much better because now it is balanced. Both genders are victim to the social conditioning and societal constraints that has been prevalent through times and shaped the environment that we have to navigate. If you posted this first I would not have said anything from the start. The issue I have is this ongoing narrative being created for women that oh woe is them, they have such a hard time and men are the villians. It's everyone who is having a hard time, both men and women. If it makes it seem I am veering into Andrew Tate territory for highlighting that men also do not have it easy when I have not actually said anything about women in my post that would even lead to an inference that I resent them, then fine so be it. I no longer care if I have to fall into such territory of a person I do not even listen to, for merely trying to balance the fact that men also go through the same issues.

I have not complained about women commenting about being objectified, women that are not in industries/jobs where they knowingly enter with the knowledge that their looks is basically the product and they are being leered at etc yes of course they should object, it is not fair or right. However, a woman that is going into a specific job where her looks is the product and she knows this...then proceeds to be judged on what she is offering as the product ie: her looks.... and then wants to cry don't judge my looks like this etc is more akin to someone applying for a job, knowing the metrics they will be measured on and then complaining about the metrics they are measured on when they fully made the conscious decision to apply for the job knowing what to expect. It's ridiculous to be honest. We all know if a man done the equivalent of what you are trying to defend people will laugh in his face, both men and women. However, due to the ongoing narrative of oh yes woe is women, logic is ignored and equality of outcomes is also suddenly non-existant.

Just to reiterate, I agree with you. It's the lack of balance from a gender standpoint that I see from posts which leads it to seem that men are villians when it's more an ideological issue which yes, men have created but both genders are victim of. So now due to such ongoing narrative that all men are responsible and are "villians" we have a situation where men get ignored or not taken seriously with all there sufferings and then are taking the blame for issues that women deal with that alot of men do not even have anything to do with even perpetuating. In other words, it's more a systemic issue at the core of all of this which impacts both genders, not men just being dickheads towards women in general; that is my point I am trying to make, we also cannot ignore equality of outcome for peoples decisions just to placate them either.

You aren’t agreeing with him. You’re changing his argument to suit your narrative and yet I don’t think you even realise it.

I don’t feel threatened by women exerting their right to be equal. I don’t feel downtrodden, nor do I feel ignored or not taken seriously. And I know plenty of other men who feel exactly the same way as me. So where is all this coming from?

Can you give me a single example of where personally you’ve been disadvantaged by a woman? My only thing I can think of is women’s toilets are normally always cleaner than men’s but that’s because men piss everywhere and don’t give a fuck in general.

I don’t take responsibility personally for the misogynistic world around us but I do take responsibility to not perpetuate it. And that involves educating myself and listening to women and not making sweeping statements about them. And calling out the perpetual ignorance spouted by an awful lot of men.

What you have just written couldn’t have been written better by Andrew Tate himself. The sooner you stop to pause and stop portraying yourself as the victim and also trying to say that all men are victims, the sooner you’ll realise quite how ridiculous you sound.

[Cheshuk]

So the birds anyone think they're fit 

[PilotMan]

Can you give me a single example of where personally you’ve been disadvantaged by a woman? My only thing I can think of is women’s toilets are normally always cleaner than men’s but that’s because men piss everywhere and don’t give a fuck in general.

You are delusional.....and your comparison is ...I don't know what, makes no sense?

How does a woman using a womens toilet personally disadvantage a man?

Here's some examples for you;

Good looking women get in to night clubs easily and for free, men don't.

Women will frequently knock a man back for his social status, job, income, it doesn't happen much the other way around.

Women also judge men on a range of physical appearance attributes.

I think you've fallen off your high horse and banged your head 

[PilotMan]

So the birds anyone think they're fit 

I do, have your got their AW id's 

[Payyourwaymate]

You aren’t agreeing with him. You’re changing his argument to suit your narrative and yet I don’t think you even realise it.

I don’t feel threatened by women exerting their right to be equal. I don’t feel downtrodden, nor do I feel ignored or not taken seriously. And I know plenty of other men who feel exactly the same way as me. So where is all this coming from?

Can you give me a single example of where personally you’ve been disadvantaged by a woman? My only thing I can think of is women’s toilets are normally always cleaner than men’s but that’s because men piss everywhere and don’t give a fuck in general.

I don’t take responsibility personally for the misogynistic world around us but I do take responsibility to not perpetuate it. And that involves educating myself and listening to women and not making sweeping statements about them. And calling out the perpetual ignorance spouted by an awful lot of men.

What you have just written couldn’t have been written better by Andrew Tate himself. The sooner you stop to pause and stop portraying yourself as the victim and also trying to say that all men are victims, the sooner you’ll realise quite how ridiculous you sound.

I did not change his narrative when I agree with him. I did not say anything about women and them fighting for equality. True equality is equality of outcomes. A female SP complaining they are being objectified when they knowingly go into a profession where their bodies become a commodity and they essentially become objectified to earn money is similar to a male SP doing the same thing and complaining. No one would care what the male SP says. They will most likely tell him it's part of the job just deal with it. However, for the female SP now it is an issue, which is what he raised in his first post.

Both parties know what they were getting into, being judged on appearance is part of the job, if reality is now bent for the female SP so she does not have to worry about her looks being judged, but still can earn money of which her clients are partly paying money for her looks... but the male SP still has the same problem, the outcome of both parties involved in the same profession is no longer equal.

Furthermore, I said both women and men are impacted. I said it is hard for everyone, not just men.

[Cheshuk]

I do, have your got their AW id's 

 

[akauya]

This post is much better because now it is balanced. Both genders are victim to the social conditioning and societal constraints that has been prevalent through times and shaped the environment that we have to navigate. If you posted this first I would not have said anything from the start. The issue I have is this ongoing narrative being created for women that oh woe is them, they have such a hard time and men are the villians. It's everyone who is having a hard time, both men and women. If it makes it seem I am veering into Andrew Tate territory for highlighting that men also do not have it easy when I have not actually said anything about women in my post that would even lead to an inference that I resent them, then fine so be it. I no longer care if I have to fall into such territory of a person I do not even listen to, for merely trying to balance the fact that men also go through the same issues.

I have not complained about women commenting about being objectified, women that are not in industries/jobs where they knowingly enter with the knowledge that their looks is basically the product and they are being leered at etc yes of course they should object, it is not fair or right. However, a woman that is going into a specific job where her looks is the product and she knows this...then proceeds to be judged on what she is offering as the product ie: her looks.... and then wants to cry don't judge my looks like this etc is more akin to someone applying for a job, knowing the metrics they will be measured on and then complaining about the metrics they are measured on when they fully made the conscious decision to apply for the job knowing what to expect. It's ridiculous to be honest. We all know if a man done the equivalent of what you are trying to defend people will laugh in his face, both men and women. However, due to the ongoing narrative of oh yes woe is women, logic is ignored and equality of outcomes is also suddenly non-existant.

Just to reiterate, I agree with you. It's the lack of balance from a gender standpoint that I see from posts which leads it to seem that men are villians when it's more an ideological issue which yes, men have created but both genders are victim of. So now due to such ongoing narrative that all men are responsible and are "villians" we have a situation where men get ignored or not taken seriously with all there sufferings and then are taking the blame for issues that women deal with that alot of men do not even have anything to do with even perpetuating. In other words, it's more a systemic issue at the core of all of this which impacts both genders, not men just being dickheads towards women in general; that is my point I am trying to make, we also cannot ignore equality of outcome for peoples decisions just to placate them either.

Goodness, there's a lot to unpick from this.

This post is much better because now it is balanced. Both genders are victim to the social conditioning and societal constraints that has been prevalent through times and shaped the environment that we have to navigate. If you posted this first I would not have said anything from the start.
 

The post you responded to originally (#56) was not worse than my last post (#87)  because I wasn't responding to a question whether both men and women are objectified or not. The question from the OP was who do we find sexy (paraphrasing) etc.  The problem is that the OP started his question about rating women's attractiveness, thereby giving the impression that we were rating civvy women. He did not mention SPs, sadly he confused some of our members by posting a mix of civvy and sex workers' pictures.

My original post argued against what some members think that we are "wired" in a certain way to like slim women. I also added a little bit of an explanation why some members were uneasy about rating women therefore the objectification issue came along. My bad probably for mixing the two issues in one post. Then you jumped with "What about men!"

The issue I have is this ongoing narrative being created for women that oh woe is them, they have such a hard time and men are the villians. It's everyone who is having a hard time, both men and women. If it makes it seem I am veering into Andrew Tate territory for highlighting that men also do not have it easy when I have not actually said anything about women in my post that would even lead to an inference that I resent them, then fine so be it. I no longer care if I have to fall into such territory of a person I do not even listen to, for merely trying to balance the fact that men also go through the same issues.

Maybe I was being too harsh accusing you of veering into an Andrew Tate territory. You came across as being somewhat resentful of certain experiences with women, not only on this thread but on others. If I misread you then please accept my apologies.

I did like the thread you started about support for men's mental health - I must commend you on that, even though I do not agree 100% with certain things you posted there such as using anger as a motivator.
 
 

I have not complained about women commenting about being objectified, women that are not in industries/jobs where they knowingly enter with the knowledge that their looks is basically the product and they are being leered at etc yes of course they should object, it is not fair or right. However, a woman that is going into a specific job where her looks is the product and she knows this...then proceeds to be judged on what she is offering as the product ie: her looks.... and then wants to cry don't judge my looks like this etc is more akin to someone applying for a job, knowing the metrics they will be measured on and then complaining about the metrics they are measured on when they fully made the conscious decision to apply for the job knowing what to expect. It's ridiculous to be honest. We all know if a man done the equivalent of what you are trying to defend people will laugh in his face, both men and women. However, due to the ongoing narrative of oh yes woe is women, logic is ignored and equality of outcomes is also suddenly non-existant.

Honestly, I haven't got a clue as to what the hell you're going on about in this paragraph. It seems to me that you were either falling victim of confirmation bias and whataboutery and jumped to conclusions or didn't read my posts properly - or maybe all of the above.

First of all, you accuse me, wrongly, that I am defending something. I think you mean "I'm defending SPs complaining about being objectified?" If that's what you mean, you're wrong. I haven't defended anyone. I argued that men rather than being 'wired' to like slim women (in Europe/the West) are conditioned to like slimmer women due to current societal trends. I also touched on why some members here feel uneasy about rating civvy women and why most women do not like being objectified.

I didn't defend anyone, I didn't tell anyone 'please don't objectify women,' etc. As a flawed human being I always try not to pontificate, although some people seem to think I was.

Then you go on to paraphrase what I already said in my post #58. I'll rephrase it here for your benefit once again in case you missed it (I was a bit tired that night and posted in a hurry).

So here it goes... about the objectification of sex workers (prostitutes, porn actresses, cam models, etc.) assuming they are working out of their own free will and are not coerced into doing so. Under these conditions and within the transactional context of their jobs, sex workers are objectified and voluntarily choose to be objectified because their commodity is their body/looks. I would even argue that (under the above circumstances) some sex workers feel empowered by making those choices.

So I have no idea why/how you came up with:

However, a woman that is going into a specific job where her looks is the product and she knows this...then proceeds to be judged on what she is offering as the product ie: her looks.... and then wants to cry don't judge my looks like this etc is more akin to someone applying for a job, knowing the metrics they will be measured on and then complaining about the metrics they are measured on when they fully made the conscious decision to apply for the job knowing what to expect. It's ridiculous to be honest.

… because no one on this thread, especially not SPs have said anything of the sort.  This is a classic example of someone picking up a few words at random, jumping to conclusions to confirm their bias and then entering into a whataboutery fallacy. Whataboutery usually deflects from the issue we are talking about.

Just to reiterate, I agree with you. It's the lack of balance from a gender standpoint that I see from posts which leads it to seem that men are villians when it's more an ideological issue which yes, men have created but both genders are victim of. So now due to such ongoing narrative that all men are responsible and are "villians" we have a situation where men get ignored or not taken seriously with all there sufferings and then are taking the blame for issues that women deal with that alot of men do not even have anything to do with even perpetuating. In other words, it's more a systemic issue at the core of all of this which impacts both genders, not men just being dickheads towards women in general; that is my point I am trying to make, we also cannot ignore equality of outcome for peoples decisions just to placate them either.
 

If you want a balanced argument about the objectification of people (both men and women) start a thread and I  will be happy to discuss that but please don't accuse me of things that I have/haven't said or that my posts are not balanced when I was sticking to the issue at hand and you decide to jump in with another issue that is not the subject of discussion.

Anyway, I think I have spent far too long on this thread so I will leave you with the last word. I'm off to post some inane shit on other threads. 

 

[akauya]

Very well said. You echo everything I believe in too and you have taken a lot of time to explain comprehensively and yet concisely enough to keep it enthralling. 

Despite my more forthright way of posting on here, I believe I’m saying the same things but I haven’t got the patience nor the time to engage to this level. I should give everyone the same time of day and, to be fair, I believe that I do in the beginning. But once I’ve weighed up someone and they lose my respect because I deem them misogynistic AND beyond help, then I’m afraid that I find it very hard.

But even then, I do still try to engage sensibly as I never hide from my own opinions and welcome debate. Without communication we will never stand a chance of moving forward.

So, yet again a longwinded post of mine to simply say “fantastic post”!

Cheers SE. Yes I think you and I have the same beliefs but our approach when arguing in support of what we believe is vastly different. 

I do understand how you feel but I always try to remember (although sometimes I fail) that if we patronise people we don't agree with, we won't win the argument. I do tend to lose my rag when discussing politics though, especially when people regurgitate stuff they are fed by the right wing media without giving a bit of critical thought about it. That's why I try to keep away from the politics thread. Anyway that's all I will say about politics - don't want to get banned! 

[Payyourwaymate]

I thought about what you said and regarding the topic in question I can't refute your points. You're right. I did jump in I guess and to be honest, I would not hesitate to do it again just to bring a balance to what men also go through. I'm not a fan of seeing what I perceive to be one sided narratives being created, you did not do this to be fair re-reading your posts. I'll call it a day  .

[versace]

These 3

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1 - 5/10
2 - 7/10
3 - 8/10