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Author Topic: Newsnight on sex industry in UK / Germany / Nordic  (Read 3962 times)

Curious6705

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Quote from: BBC Website
Mega-brothels: Has Germany become 'bordello of Europe'?

Germany legalised prostitution in 2002, creating an industry now thought to be worth 16bn euros a year.

By treating prostitution as a job like any other, the idea was to prise women away from the pimps that often run the sex trade.

[...]

The feminist Alice Schwarzer has led a campaign for Germany to reverse course on its prostitution laws and copy the approach in Sweden, where it is illegal to buy sexual services but not to sell them.

This means a man caught with a prostitute faces a heavy fine or prosecution, but the woman does not.

That model has slowly been gaining ground across Europe and is now being seriously considered in seven countries, most notably France.

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Newsnight item last night - begins about 17:30 - filmed report in Germany at Paradise Stuttgart and new site in Saarbrucken on French border. Then a panel discussion - the usual fare with a feminist MP and a Poppy project spokesperson, a sex worker and an academic - though they struggle to get a word in against the Poppy person at times. The trigger for this Newsnight item and discussion being that the Harriet Harmful lobby have prepared a report for presentation to parliament recommending legislation to criminalise the buying of sex in the UK.

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Offline Straife

Another case of ever growing thinly veiled misandry. It's illegal for the man but not the woman? Yeah, sounds fair to me. It takes two to tango.

beaulybhoy

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laura lee looks as if she's put on a few pounds

Curious6705

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I find this aspect of the BBC report interesting -

Quote from: BBC Website
A two-year UK parliamentary inquiry into the sex trade, to be published next month, is expected to recommend the same Swedish model for England and Wales, although any change in the law is extremely unlikely before the 2015 general election.

The Newsnight introduction to the piece says something like the BBC has seen the "final reports from a group of MPs" taken together with the panel discussion, it seems the underlying research is about as reliable as that used by Harman and McShane in the last parliament - i.e. pretty much made up to suit the argument they want to put forward. Laura Lee makes the point that sex workers have not been consulted, and the academic makes the point that the "research" contradicts academic research which is peer reviewed. Of course, they are more or less shouted down and ignored by the person from the Poppy project, and the MEP - which are the usual tactics such people seem to adopt.

This seems like a rerun of the discussions that preceded the 2009 legislation, and presumably is intended to set the stage for Harman should labour come to power in the 2015 election.

I think it's a bit previous of the BBC to stage this debate now, before the report has been published, because the "research" on which it is based is most likely seriously flawed, if not actually entirely made up and fictitious. Until the report is published the research it is based upon cannot be analysed. So the debate goes on without any reference to the facts - though that seems always to be the case.

The panel discussion and the attitudes of the Poppy person and MEP are almost comically reminiscent of the episode of Borgen in which a similar panel told a sex worker that she does not know what goes on in her industry - which was the case in this discussion! 



Offline akauya

I find this aspect of the BBC report interesting -

The Newsnight introduction to the piece says something like the BBC has seen the "final reports from a group of MPs" taken together with the panel discussion, it seems the underlying research is about as reliable as that used by Harman and McShane in the last parliament - i.e. pretty much made up to suit the argument they want to put forward. Laura Lee makes the point that sex workers have not been consulted, and the academic makes the point that the "research" contradicts academic research which is peer reviewed. Of course, they are more or less shouted down and ignored by the person from the Poppy project, and the MEP - which are the usual tactics such people seem to adopt.

This seems like a rerun of the discussions that preceded the 2009 legislation, and presumably is intended to set the stage for Harman should labour come to power in the 2015 election.

I think it's a bit previous of the BBC to stage this debate now, before the report has been published, because the "research" on which it is based is most likely seriously flawed, if not actually entirely made up and fictitious. Until the report is published the research it is based upon cannot be analysed. So the debate goes on without any reference to the facts - though that seems always to be the case.

The panel discussion and the attitudes of the Poppy person and MEP are almost comically reminiscent of the episode of Borgen in which a similar panel told a sex worker that she does not know what goes on in her industry - which was the case in this discussion!


Thanks for the links mate. And you are absolutely spot on on your comments above specially the Borgen episode, it's like life imitating fiction! Scary stuff.


Offline smiths

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Newsnight item last night - begins about 17:30 - filmed report in Germany at Paradise Stuttgart and new site in Saarbrucken on French border. Then a panel discussion - the usual fare with a feminist MP and a Poppy project spokesperson, a sex worker and an academic - though they struggle to get a word in against the Poppy person at times. The trigger for this Newsnight item and discussion being that the Harriet Harmful lobby have prepared a report for presentation to parliament recommending legislation to criminalise the buying of sex in the UK.

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Sadly Harridan and her ilk will continue their crusade and parts of the media are either with them or scared of them plus we mainly only here the antis side on this. Cant see anything happening before the election, but we already know if Labour and Harridan get back in she will do all she can to push the criminalisation of punters through.

The police prostitution lead Armitt doesnt see a problem with off-street, non brothel punting as he stated thats between consenting adults, i hope he sticks to that view, or isnt replaced with a yes person. ;)

cjkanye02

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I urge any punter to visit the German FKKs. They truly are heaven of paid sex.

Offline smiths

I find this aspect of the BBC report interesting -

The Newsnight introduction to the piece says something like the BBC has seen the "final reports from a group of MPs" taken together with the panel discussion, it seems the underlying research is about as reliable as that used by Harman and McShane in the last parliament - i.e. pretty much made up to suit the argument they want to put forward. Laura Lee makes the point that sex workers have not been consulted, and the academic makes the point that the "research" contradicts academic research which is peer reviewed. Of course, they are more or less shouted down and ignored by the person from the Poppy project, and the MEP - which are the usual tactics such people seem to adopt.

This seems like a rerun of the discussions that preceded the 2009 legislation, and presumably is intended to set the stage for Harman should labour come to power in the 2015 election.

I think it's a bit previous of the BBC to stage this debate now, before the report has been published, because the "research" on which it is based is most likely seriously flawed, if not actually entirely made up and fictitious. Until the report is published the research it is based upon cannot be analysed. So the debate goes on without any reference to the facts - though that seems always to be the case.

The panel discussion and the attitudes of the Poppy person and MEP are almost comically reminiscent of the episode of Borgen in which a similar panel told a sex worker that she does not know what goes on in her industry - which was the case in this discussion!

I am 100% certain Harridan and her ilk will once again as in 2009 make up figures that back their agenda up. In 2009 they used a figure of 4000 trafficked for sex women as fact, operations Pentameters 1 and 2 found about 400 and many of them were either illegals or doing it voluntarily, plus the convictions were woeful. So the actual factual proof never backed up the 4000 figure.

Now one forced woman is one too many in my book, but the facts should be what laws are based on in my view. ;)

Offline CoolTiger

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I urge any punter to visit the German FKKs. They truly are heaven of paid sex.

Agreed.

Also when you get a chance, read up Jerboa's reports on his visits there, on here and on PNet.

Offline jburke1215

Corus Boy has put up an interesting map, https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=24787.0

Now if EU is ruled by Germany, as many think, how long before we follow them rather than the go the 'Harman Way'?   :rolleyes:

Curious6705

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Thanks for the links mate. And you are absolutely spot on on your comments above specially the Borgen episode, it's like life imitating fiction! Scary stuff.

Cheers - 16bn euros in Germany from prostitution according to the BBC, and that's just part of a large sex industry I believe, started by German women in the first place, after the second world war, because "our boys" had killed off most German men. That large industry is not afraid to speak up for itself and, I hope, wields commensurate political influence.

One theme that seems to be emerging from the FemiNazis is that they want to see common policy across the EU. I hope the German sex industry is aware of this and is thinking "bring it on" ...

Curious6705

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I am 100% certain Harridan and her ilk will once again as in 2009 make up figures that back their agenda up. In 2009 they used a figure of 4000 trafficked for sex women as fact, operations Pentameters 1 and 2 found about 400 and many of them were either illegals or doing it voluntarily, plus the convictions were woeful. So the actual factual proof never backed up the 4000 figure.

Now one forced woman is one too many in my book, but the facts should be what laws are based on in my view. ;)

Absolutely agree.

It frustrates me sometimes to read posts by UKP members who seem to conflate pimping and coercion, as though the one implies the other. IMO an employer or agent who provides marketing and housekeeping services - say a good FKK or party provider - is an example of a "pimp" that does not coerce, and can make an excellent SP.

Curious6705

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I am 100% certain Harridan and her ilk will once again as in 2009 make up figures that back their agenda up. In 2009 they used a figure of 4000 trafficked for sex women as fact, operations Pentameters 1 and 2 found about 400 and many of them were either illegals or doing it voluntarily, plus the convictions were woeful. So the actual factual proof never backed up the 4000 figure.

Now one forced woman is one too many in my book, but the facts should be what laws are based on in my view. ;)

Yes - I hope some investigative journalists will be taking a very close look at the "research" in this latest report when it is published.

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Offline smiths

Absolutely agree.

It frustrates me sometimes to read posts by UKP members who seem to conflate pimping and coercion, as though the one implies the other. IMO an employer or agent who provides marketing and housekeeping services - say a good FKK or party provider - is an example of a "pimp" that does not coerce, and can make an excellent SP.

It works in Germany so the proof is evident, Harridan and her ilk have NO interest in the proof or facts though of course, its a crusade where nothing will change their views. Punters are abusers and WGs the abused even if they deny they are, thats the view which these people will use to try to criminalise all punters here.

Even if she does get back in all is not lost. She has to get such a law through, the Labour majority in the commons will determine how easy that will be in all probability in my view, then through the lords. Then if it gets passed how would it be enforced, chances are the top cops in any given area will actually decide this as they do now with brothels. Easy to raid brothels and get punters, really time intensive and costly to catch punters off-street with Indies, highly unlikely to happen as i see it. More about bark than bite as her coercion law has been. However, just it being illegal would i imagine deter some punters as they have too much to lose which is completely understandable obviously.

In 2009 as her coercion law was going through i did think that would cause serious problems, as NIK and some others posted at the time it wouldnt and they were certainly proved right. ;)

Offline akauya

Yes - I hope some investigative journalists will be taking a very close look at the "research" in this latest report when it is published.

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Thank God for papers like The Guardian, I can just imagine what the Daily Mail wolud say - probably that we are inundated with trafficked women yada yada yada...

This bit is interesting in that article:

"Those figures credited Pentameter with "arresting 528 criminals associated with one of the worst crimes threatening our society".  But an internal police analysis of Pentameter, obtained by the Guardian after a lengthy legal struggle, paints a very different picture.

The analysis, produced by the police Human Trafficking Centre in Sheffield and marked "restricted", suggests there was a striking shortage of sex traffickers to be found in spite of six months of effort by all 55 police forces in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland together with the UK Border Agency, the Serious and Organised Crime Agency, the Foreign Office, the Northern Ireland Office, the Scottish government, the Crown Prosecution Service and various NGOs in what was trumpeted as "the largest ever police crackdown on human trafficking".


Basically the fuzz made it all up!  :rolleyes:

Offline akauya

oops posted before I finished...

... anyway, there are loads of figures reported in that article that make a very interesting read. Operation Pentameter was a big failure.


Curious6705

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... there are loads of figures reported in that article that make a very interesting read. Operation Pentameter was a big failure.

Yep - when all the stuff leading up to the 2009 legislation was going on I would often read the site - began by expecting it to be FemiNazi to the max, but was pleasantly surprised how even handed the debate was - at least in the comments - and how the mods let it play out with little if any censorship. They give the likes of Bindel space, but also investigative journalism that completely contradicts her and what she stands for.  :thumbsup:

Curious6705

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It works in Germany so the proof is evident, Harridan and her ilk have NO interest in the proof or facts though of course, its a crusade where nothing will change their views. Punters are abusers and WGs the abused even if they deny they are, thats the view which these people will use to try to criminalise all punters here.

Even if she does get back in all is not lost. She has to get such a law through, the Labour majority in the commons will determine how easy that will be in all probability in my view, then through the lords. Then if it gets passed how would it be enforced, chances are the top cops in any given area will actually decide this as they do now with brothels. Easy to raid brothels and get punters, really time intensive and costly to catch punters off-street with Indies, highly unlikely to happen as i see it. More about bark than bite as her coercion law has been. However, just it being illegal would i imagine deter some punters as they have too much to lose which is completely understandable obviously.

In 2009 as her coercion law was going through i did think that would cause serious problems, as NIK and some others posted at the time it wouldnt and they were certainly proved right. ;)

I also thought it would create big problems. I hadn't punted for some time, but when the legislation passed I just had to try visiting a few SPs - and of course it was just business as usual.  :)

Offline akauya

It's such a shame that such an interesting and important issue that this is, it's unfortunately ignored because of that ParisB thread at the moment.

Thanks for bringing this up Curious let's hope more UKP members read this and take note. I wish we could do something because if Harriet Harridan and her ilk ever make it into power we will all be fucked!


JB1969

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interesting read but unfortunately even with the UK being morally corrupt they will still bring up the moral issue to prevent prostitution from being legalised.

Offline DJ Fruit Polo

Another case of ever growing thinly veiled misandry. It's illegal for the man but not the woman? Yeah, sounds fair to me. It takes two to tango.

The idea is that women are being used and ill-treated, so legislation should be brought in to protect them.  As they're being painted as the victims in this scenario they can't very well be treated as criminals at the same time.  That only leaves the other half of the sex-work transaction, the oppressive clients, to be criminalised.   

Persie

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How much would you pay for the black girl...she is fit!

At least £150 innit! :thumbsup:

Offline CurvyKinkyVixen

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Harman the Hag , pedo supporter , has no right to bitch about prostitutes.  ( P.I.E - Been in this weeks news)

I bet her husband partakes :)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 07:10:13 pm by CurvyKinkyVixen »

Offline CurvyKinkyVixen

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It's such a shame that such an interesting and important issue that this is, it's unfortunately ignored because of that ParisB thread at the moment.

Thanks for bringing this up Curious let's hope more UKP members read this and take note. I wish we could do something because if Harriet Harridan and her ilk ever make it into power we will all be fucked!

Not if I can help it !!

Masses of ex labour supporters have defected to other partys. Bunch of has beens = Labour.

Online Strawberry

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Amnesty International are currently running a consultation of it's members in the UK on their global stance on sex work (which is decriminalisation of both workers and clients). If you are a member you can email them for a pack which includes a feedback form to put your views forward. It might not do anything, but if you don't say anything the voice doesn't get heard.

Offline CurvyKinkyVixen

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I know a lot of you dislike the DM , but it was the first link in google.

Offline Anadin

I'm pretty sure that Laura Lee was on LBC not too long ago and she was pretty good but on that but on the Newsnight debate that Dorcas Erskine pretty much owned all of them. If someone says please don't interrupt me and then begins to interrupt you well you should call her on it or ignore her and counter her points. Plus she somehow managed to present stats and cleverly manage to prevent anyone else from putting forth anymore research. I also noticed she was the only one to have notes with her, the otherside really needs to do better.

Offline Horizontal pleasures

what happened in Sweden when they outlawed putting? Surely it still goes on?

Online Strawberry

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what happened in Sweden when they outlawed putting? Surely it still goes on?

I'd need to find a link but from memory it's supposedly decimated the street scene, independents are thriving and prices high. Could be a reason or two to oppose it in there!

Here's something to get you started;

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« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 12:09:23 am by Strawberry »

Curious6705

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I know a lot of you dislike the DM , but it was the first link in google.

It does beg the question, when we have seen numerous prosecutions over alleged sexual offences by people in the public eye decades ago, why haven't the likes of Harman and Hewitt been prosecuted?

Offline akauya

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I know a lot of you dislike the DM , but it was the first link in google.

It does beg the question, when we have seen numerous prosecutions over alleged sexual offences by people in the public eye decades ago, why haven't the likes of Harman and Hewitt been prosecuted?

Indeed... something fishy out there.

Is there anything we could do to make the Harriet Harman - PIE (Paedophile Information Exchange) debacle more prominent?  Start blogs about it? Write to our MPs? Put it on the first page here? Keep googling to make it appear at the top in searches?

We must be able to start a campaign or something, that woman must be stopped!

Is anyone on Reddit? Is it on there?


Offline smiths

It does beg the question, when we have seen numerous prosecutions over alleged sexual offences by people in the public eye decades ago, why haven't the likes of Harman and Hewitt been prosecuted?

Good to see Harridan getting some heat about this and it being prominent on the BBC news. If it just sows a seed of doubt about that creature in some peoples minds i view that as a very good thing indeed. ;)

Curious6705

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Good to see Harridan getting some heat about this and it being prominent on the BBC news. If it just sows a seed of doubt about that creature in some peoples minds i view that as a very good thing indeed. ;)

Indeed - I see this morning on the BBC website -

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The deputy Labour leader has accused the Daily Mail of running a "politically-motivated smear campaign".

Which is rich coming from someone who specialises in running a politically-motivated smear campaign against punting.

vorian

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Indeed - I see this morning on the BBC website -

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Which is rich coming from someone who specialises in running a politically-motivated smear campaign against punting.

For once I'm with the Daily Mail, lets hope they don't let this go and let her off the hook as she is playing the politics game, failing to answer the central questions but answering and denying one's that they have not accused her off. Just hope this gets enough traction that anytime her name is mentioned it is subconsciously linked to child abuse in the publics eye. That might just be enough to stop her becoming Labour Party leader and maybe even PM.

Of course the downside of this is she might try to link prostitution and child abuse together and to prove how tough she is against child abuse attack prostitution with even more vigor.   

Offline smiths

Harridan has now expressed regret that the National Council for Civil Liberties granted affliate status to the Paedophile Information Exchange. Her spokeswoman later said Harridan regrets the existence of the PIE. I bet she does NOW.

vorian

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Harridan has now expressed regret that the National Council for Civil Liberties granted affliate status to the Paedophile Information Exchange. Her spokeswoman later said Harridan regrets the existence of the PIE. I bet she does NOW.

Seems inconceivable now to think that the PIE was even comfortable to masquerade as a political organisation. The 70's really were strange times. I have read up on them since this story broke, deluded and twisted comes to mind and trying to link gay rights and child abuse just bizarre.

 I do hope the police have traced these men and are keeping a very close eye on them even now, make me wonder why resources are spent on the celebrity sex trials for offenses from the 60s and 70s but something like this is ignored until the Daily Mail raise it. Saying that maybe all these PIE sickos died or were locked up years ago, I do hope that is the case.

Offline smiths

Seems inconceivable now to think that the PIE was even comfortable to masquerade as a political organisation. The 70's really were strange times. I have read up on them since this story broke, deluded and twisted comes to mind and trying to link gay rights and child abuse just bizarre.

 I do hope the police have traced these men and are keeping a very close eye on them even now, make me wonder why resources are spent on the celebrity sex trials for offenses from the 60s and 70s but something like this is ignored until the Daily Mail raise it. Saying that maybe all these PIE sickos died or were locked up years ago, I do hope that is the case.

PIE have been mentioned by the media over the years, i saw documentary a few years ago about them. Of course your right that things have changed but noncing kids was a crime then as it is now, right minded people saw PIE as a bunch of nonces trying to further their noncing through PIE. Such an organisation would get banned nowadays of course and rightly so.

The DM have Harridan on the ropes for her to issue this statement and if she doesnt sue them it weakens her position even more. I hope they keep the pressure up on her, although Milibland supported her yesterday there is only so much he and others will put up with. Saying that Harridan is sadly a very senior figure in Labour and will no doubt fight tooth and nail literally to keep her job.

Rochdull lad

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I'll bet Cameron refers to it somehow or other during Prime Minister's Questions tomorrow.  Serve the old bag right.

jcdmj12

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I'll bet Cameron refers to it somehow or other during Prime Minister's Questions tomorrow.  Serve the old bag right.

Let's hope so.  I don't normally give a shit about politics, but I'll be voting Tory next election in the hope of keeping her out.