Criminalising Punters - Scottish Parliamentary Consultation underway

[bops909]

Please stick with this longer than usual post. There's some disturbing things going on...

The topic of the Nordic Model has come up several times before but what's different now is that there is a Scottish Parliamentary consultation on the topic - and you don't have to be in Scotland to respond to it - something that the nordicmodelnow pressure group is keen to point out -  they have prepared a cut and paste answer for their supporters.

External Link/Members Only

It's also disturbing that the evidence being presented by the Scottish Parliament is being wrapped in a claim no-one can object to (violence against women) is clearly being slanted in one direction and is based on some very thin and dated evidence, leading to some very dubious conclusions such as

"52% of men interviewed had purchased sex before the age of 21, and 74% by 25 years old....if a man had not purchased sex by 25 years old, then he would be less likely to do so in the future"

External Link/Members Only

Hopefully no-one would disagree with the desirability of reducing the harms associated with sex work and to that extent the consultation is a good idea, but Sex Worker organisations are against the conclusions being drawn, and the one-sided presentation of evidence.

There may be no perfect solution to a complex situation but the Nordic Model is not a panacea and does not reduce harm, as has been found in places that have adopted it.

By contrast New Zealand has taken a different approach, has reviewed it after 5 years and found it had worked.

In NZ they are creating a safer decriminalised environment for those engaging in the sex industry. It's not perfect but they are eroding stigma, reclaiming rights, and in NZ, a WG can and have successfully sued brothel owners. Hard to imagine that here.

External Link/Members Only

I think it really would be helpful if the consultation heard from us responsible punters.

The other side doubtless have someone copying and pasting the  comments in UKP that suit their case that punters are all scum, so we owe it to ourselves, and the women and men who make responsible choices to enter and stay in the sex industry, to contribute to the consultation.

From what I've seen on here, a lot of UKP contributors are genuine and recognize there are issues in sex work and would like to see it be safer and reduce the risks and harms there can be.

If we stay silent, if the evidence the Scottish Parliament hears is one sided and politicized, it will lead to bad outcomes for us as punters, and the people we engage with.

I'd like to ask fellow UKP members to send their feedback to the consultation. It's all anonymous - you just have to give a burner email address and answer a few questions.

If you're not sure what to say or why it matters, have a look at the Scottish Sex Workers website. External Link/Members Only

We've got until 10th December.

Thanks. And now we return to our usual programming....

[Home Alone]

Wow; that's one Hell of a post to digest at this time of night, bops. And that's without following the consultation links.

Thanks for posting it, though. Sounds like we've got a LOT of reading, writing and, perhaps above all, thinking to do in the next few weeks.

[MilleMiglia]

Where on earth did they get those figures from? As the saying goes "Lies, damn lies.....

[snaitram99]

I read the first few lines of the Overview. They seem to have started with a conclusion that should only be reached, if at all, after the conclusion of the consultation process.

Surely there are some canny Scottish lawyers who can point out this must be an abuse of process, if that's the right term?

[signy]

They seem to have started with a conclusion...

Unfortunately, that's how consultations work. Whether it be a new road scheme, redundancies at work or shutting local services, the powers that be decide what they want to do, but know that legally they have to go through a consultation process. The outcome has already been decided (if you get the wrong result, just make a small tweak and then do it again, and again, and again...).

[CoverMyEyes]

I read the first few lines of the Overview. They seem to have started with a conclusion that should only be reached, if at all, after the conclusion of the consultation process.

Surely there are some canny Scottish lawyers who can point out this must be an abuse of process, if that's the right term?

Isn't also the way they have provided "suggested answers" that, from a quick skim, support their conclusion for people to copy/download also somewhat devious and designed to sway the responses to this consultation?

Edit: Ah, no. That's suggested answers from the nordic site, not the consultation itself, and they're bound to be on that side. My bad.

[xyfek]

I fear it's only a matter of time before all of the UK adopts the so-called Nordic model. The wind has certainly been blowing in that direction for a while now. These people have an agenda and they won't listen to reason. I'm not sure whether they're required to do the consultation, but I think the outcome is pretty much decided already...

[unclepokey]

We had all this in England a few years ago. The end result was what I call the April Fools Day legislation (as it became the law on that day). What that did was to make it an offence for a punter to pay for sex with a person who was essentially non-consensual in that matter whether the punter knew or knew not that that was the case. The law seemed to me to be already covered by the law relating to rape but I believe it was particularly intended to deter punters and more particularly in cases where the sex workers concerned were trafficked or under other duress.
At the time a former Assistant Chief Constable friend of mine observed that the police didn't have the resources to cope with this and it was generally therefore in terrorum* legislation. Indeed I don't think many punters have been given a red card as a result of it.
It's a step further perhaps that Scotland may be looking at but my guess is that enforcement will be the issue that will kick actuality down the road.
UP

* my Latin is negligible even my spelling thereof. But aliquando Homerus dormitat

[bops909]

Where on earth did they get those figures from? As the saying goes "Lies, damn lies.....

Well they are the conclusions from routine health screening interviews with 250 men in a GUM clinic in Glasgow in 2006.

There's a lot of extrapolation and interpretation of data collected for a different purpose involved.

[bops909]

I fear it's only a matter of time before all of the UK adopts the so-called Nordic model. The wind has certainly been blowing in that direction for a while now. These people have an agenda and they won't listen to reason. I'm not sure whether they're required to do the consultation, but I think the outcome is pretty much decided already...

Let's hope not. The Nordic Model pressure group seem to want to stigmatize everyone.

They see all WGs as victims and all punters as criminals and frame the whole thing as exploitation and violence.

From what I've seen on UKP, responsible punters know there are risks and potential harms involved, but surely stigmatizing everyone more doesn't make it better for anyone.

[summerwinter]

Scot pep have a template reply, just copy and paste in the consultation. It is super straight forward.   

External Link/Members Only

Would be a shame if this become law!

[Home Alone]

Thanks for that link, summer winter; it's really helpful at focusing the mind on answering the - loaded - questions sensibly.

[nbarnes]

They see all WGs as victims and all punters as criminals and frame the whole thing as exploitation and violence.

Nope. The Radfem scum despise the prostitutes even more than the punters, they just pretend they don't to make their position more palatable to the average woman.
Regulation and legalisation is the only way to reduce harm to all involved.

In terms of enforcement, I read an interesting story about Iceland a while back. Don't have a link unfortunately, but shouldn't be too difficult to find.
Prostitution in Iceland is booming despite the nordic model - due to the cost of living being so high and all their women being gorgeous scandi blondes.

The police can't cope - so the feminazis have actually started a vigilante group called Big Sister. How this operates in reality, I have no idea.

[DrGFreeman]

no point in preaching to the choir on this - I would guess most on here are advocates of decriminalisation
not that the SNP administration is interested in our view or of scotpeep or anyone elses but their own

the delightful Hariet Harmen tried to make prostitution illegal but found there was no public support to do so
at least this is only at consultation stage
I though the UK govts parliamentary committee investigation again a few years ago was fairly balanced, so some sense may still prevail

criminalising us punters is already the law in northern ireland I thought
would be very interested to hear from our UKP brothers on what this means in practice ?

[cultvoid]

At the time of writing, it is illegal for people to be outdoors unless they have a "reasonable excuse". It is illegal to hug your mum (unless you live with her).

Many on this board have welcomed the above and many posters have commented that society should respect authority more.

So, there you have it. We have a highly authoritarian government and the majority are quibbling that they'd like them to be MORE authoritatian.

This isn't a covid thread. But given the above, what do you think the chances of prostitution still being legal in say a years/5 years time?

It's zero, or close to it. The only arguable point is the timescale. It might take a while because they're too busy banning other things, but don't worry, they'll get to you eventually.

"first they came for the covidiots, for they did not wear a mask. I am not a covidiot, so I did not speak up. Then they came for the punters, and there's noone to speak for me, so I can no longer blow my load up stranger's pussies".

Nothing you can do about it, it'll be "rolled out" worldwide too.

[Malvolio]

I think the chance of prostitution still being legal five years from now is very high - there are more important issues to deal with and I don't see it as a vote winner.

[Kelgon85]

riminalising us punters is already the law in northern ireland I thought
would be very interested to hear from our UKP brothers on what this means in practice ?

I believe in the other thread discussing a similar topic, someone commented that when the law first came in NI was fairly quiet on the punting front for a while. Now, though, it is thriving (I believe that was the word they used). Just going on AW, you can see there are an awful lot of WGs operational in NI.

[Kelgon85]

Ooops, sorry. Double post.

[bbois77]

External Link/Members Only

Lots on Irish site, hope OK to link

[Bond]

Criminalisation of the paying for sexual services was in the Scottish Labour Party manifesto for the last Scottish Parliament election in 2016 and now it seems that (at least some) senior SNP figures are keen to join the bandwagon as well. The least we can do is reply to the consultation and try to stop this from becoming official SNP policy for the next legislature.

Failing that, the only hope would be that the Tories, LibDems and Greens between them get a majority of seats in the next Scottish parliament to prevent this insane piece of legislation from being enacted. There's almost zero chance of that happening however.

At the risk of sounding like a Tory cheerleader, I would say that my expectation is that when Labour is next in power such legislation will also be introduced for England and Wales.

[Squire Haggard]

If this becomes law in Scotland, its a near certainty that England will be next.

The well known feminazis in the Scottish Government that are behind this anti men campaign are:
                               
                                Group co-convener Rhoda Grant MSP
                                   
                                Group co-convener Ruth Maguire MSP

                                Ash Denham MSP

They must know that the vast majority of SPs choose this line of work, and dont experience violence of any kind, and are not trafficked.

However, its abundantly clear to me that they are not interested in letting the facts stand in the way of their anti men campaign. They want to spoil our fun, because they want others to be as miserable as they are. Also, I doubt that many of us would piss on them if we were paid to, and they know it.

I draw your attention to this link from the Scottish board. I'll assume that the harpies behind this all agree with Rhoda Grant's statement, which everyone on here will recognise as completely untrue,

''"Those who advertise prostitution are actively encouraging violence against women," group co-convener Rhoda Grant said.

"It is time we stood up to them, called them to account and ensured that no woman is for sale in Scotland today."


https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=285732.0

 

[cultvoid]

I think the chance of prostitution still being legal five years from now is very high - there are more important issues to deal with and I don't see it as a vote winner.

2019: in one year's time, all non essential businesses to close, including pubs. Vote winner?

When has any government crack down appeared in a manifesto? They're brought in as a result of mass hysteria, and this year has proved that mass hysteria is very easy to generate.

All it will take is one high profile case of a trafficked whore getting murdered or something, and every single punter will pay for it.

If it saves one life. "Castrate the punters. Lock up the brothels. Save a whore".

Coming soon. Punting is in the queue, it's just a question of what else they want to ban first.

[bedhedred]

Q: should I waste any time answering this consultation or will they simply look at "Mr" and delete the email?

[Squire Haggard]

Perhaps the best way of responding is via the people that are on the same side as us and who the feminazi MSPs always choose to ignore.  Its perhaps better rather than risk Scottish government feminazis 'losing' some responses.

External Link/Members Only



They suggest this at the bottom of the first page.

External Link/Members Only



I doubt that many on here will disagree with their aims,

''We are a sex worker-led charity that advocates for the safety, rights and health of everyone who sells sex in Scotland.

We believe that sex work is work, and that sex workers deserve protections such as labour rights. Along with Amnesty International, the World Health Organization and the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women (GAATW), we believe that the decriminalisation of sex work best upholds the safety and rights of people who sell sex. Like these organisations, we believe that the Swedish model has been a disastrous failure for sex workers.

We believe in the right of all sex workers to organise and unionise for better workplace conditions. We believe that everyone who sells or trades sex deserves to be listened to.''

[B4bcock]

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=287808.0


Current thread in Off Topic which has an interesting quote in the BBC News link;

 A government spokesman said: "We have no plans to change the law around prostitution and are committed to tackling the harm and exploitation associated with sex work.

[winkywanky]

I have little doubt that if the political will were there, a (probably quite large) self-funding police-led task force could be set up to tackle real trafficking and coercion (and therefore most of the violence, implied or real).

In other words, using the proceeds of crime act and fines in general, you could probably get rid of a lot of the scum and it would cost literally nothing (or very little) in real terms.

For starters, you could have a team of 500 checking out AW every day and looking for new and/or dodgy profiles, and conduct random visits simply posing as punters.

Pick up the Romanian scum (other scums are available), prosecute them, take away their ill-gotten gains, sentence them, and then deport them when their time is up, blocking them from ever entering the UK again.

I'm probably living in cloud cuckooland  .

[winkywanky]

But horny housewives, or those on their uppers looking for a short term way out, why should they be denied, and why should punters (who are mostly good men) be denied?

It's literally the oldest game in town.

[B4bcock]

I have little doubt that if the political will were there, a (probably quite large) self-funding police-led task force could be set up to tackle real trafficking and coercion (and therefore most of the violence, implied or real).

In other words, using the proceeds of crime act and fines in general, you could probably get rid of a lot of the scum and it would cost literally nothing (or very little) in real terms.

For starters, you could have a team of 500 checking out AW every day and looking for new and/or dodgy profiles, and conduct random visits simply posing as punters.

Pick up the Romanian scum (other scums are available), prosecute them, take away their ill-gotten gains, sentence them, and then deport them when their time is up, blocking them from ever entering the UK again.

I'm probably living in cloud cuckooland  .

Excellent idea, winky, and it might have the extra benefit of scaring the shit out of those running AW so much that they actually start to check the validity of the site's profiles.

[Home Alone]

I have little doubt that if the political will were there, a (probably quite large) self-funding police-led task force could be set up to tackle real trafficking and coercion (and therefore most of the violence, implied or real).

In other words, using the proceeds of crime act and fines in general, you could probably get rid of a lot of the scum and it would cost literally nothing (or very little) in real terms.

For starters, you could have a team of 500 checking out AW every day and looking for new and/or dodgy profiles, and conduct random visits simply posing as punters.

Pick up the Romanian scum (other scums are available), prosecute them, take away their ill-gotten gains, sentence them, and then deport them when their time is up, blocking them from ever entering the UK again.

I'm probably living in cloud cuckooland  .

I know you posted yesterday, ww; but I'd just like to say that I - and I'm sure I wasn't the only one - appreciated the return of your use of asides, such as the one I've quoted in bold, to make important points.

[unclepokey]

But horny housewives, or those on their uppers looking for a short term way out, why should they be denied, and why should punters (who are mostly good men) be denied?

It's literally the oldest game in town.

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in, how shall I say, believing in the concept of the right-thinking punter. I count myself therein.
Well said WW

Uncle Pokey

[DrGFreeman]

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=287808.0
Current thread in Off Topic which has an interesting quote in the BBC News link;
 A government spokesman said: "We have no plans to change the law around prostitution and are committed to tackling the harm and exploitation associated with sex work.

Except thats the UK government
The consultation is from the Scottish govt as this is a devolved matter

Maybe the mods could change the thread title to 'scottish parliament consultation' to prevent confusion?

[winkywanky]

Except thats the UK government
The consultation is from the Scottish govt as this is a devolved matter

Maybe the mods could change the thread title to 'scottish parliament consultation' to prevent confusion?

I'm not a Mod but I've taken the liberty of doing that, it seems reasonable.

[B4bcock]

There was an item on ITV News At Ten last night about the trafficking of young romanian girls for prostitution and again it was stated the official UK position is to leave things as they are.  If Scotland adopts some version of the Nordic Model and makes buying sex illegal whilst things in England remain unchanged, it will be interesting to see if towns such as Berwick-Upon-Tweed become busy punting grounds for horny scotsmen.  Might be a boost for the local economies of english border towns!

[Trex]

I decided to not to see Romanian girls anymore because of this.

You guys should do the same as well, so we won’t get that silly law called Nordic model in this country.

[Squire Haggard]

I decided to not to see Romanian girls anymore because of this.

You guys should do the same as well, so we won’t get that silly law called Nordic model in this country.

I'll repost this from the Scottish board, as its the feminazis in a position of power that we need to beware of.

Its not just the small minority of potentially trafficked girls that concerns them. The Three Witches behind this are stirring the pot in the hope of putting a curse on ALL SPs and punters. The proof is this ram-packed buzzword cut and paste load of convoluted lies and meaningless crap from from the chief witch, Ash Denham.

  ''Commercial sexual exploitation refers to a continuum of violence. Prostitution is just one act on this continuum.''

                         '' I see this consultation paper as an opportunity for us to hold that national discussion to inform future policy decisions about how we address this form
                           of gendered violence........''

 External Link/Members Only           

[xyfek]

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=287808.0


Current thread in Off Topic which has an interesting quote in the BBC News link;

 A government spokesman said: "We have no plans to change the law around prostitution and are committed to tackling the harm and exploitation associated with sex work.

That seems to be the position of the Tories, but it might be a different story once Labour gets back in. And it's inevitable that they will sooner or later, I think.

[Marmalade]

That seems to be the position of the Tories, but it might be a different story once Labour gets back in. And it's inevitable that they will sooner or later, I think.

In England yes, but in Scotland they have no chance against the SNP (who simply have too many seats). Andrew Neil has just done an extremely good rant at them, and rightly criticised Boris’ remarks into the bargain.

I don’t like anti-Scottish sentiment, and to give the wee Crankie her due, she’s apparently handled the pandemic better than Boris and Princess NutNuts. But Andrew Neil was on the ball, rightly taking some of the wind out of the SNP’s sails.

External Link/Members Only

As to Labour Party in England a lot depends on Starmer. He’s pretty right wing for a socialist and his views as far as I can see on p4p is not abolitionist.
External Link/Members Only

He was also on the committee of the govt report that criticised the Nordic model.
External Link/Members Only

[Trex]

In England yes, but in Scotland they have no chance against the SNP (who simply have too many seats). Andrew Neil has just done an extremely good rant at them, and rightly criticised Boris’ remarks into the bargain.

I don’t like anti-Scottish sentiment, and to give the wee Crankie her due, she’s apparently handled the pandemic better than Boris and Princess NutNuts. But Andrew Neil was on the ball, rightly taking some of the wind out of the SNP’s sails.

External Link/Members Only

As to Labour Party in England a lot depends on Starmer. He’s pretty right wing for a socialist and his views as far as I can see on p4p is not abolitionist.
External Link/Members Only

He was also on the committee of the govt report that criticised the Nordic model.
External Link/Members Only

@xyfek Jeremy Corbyn is favoured of the Nordic model thank god he didn’t win last year.

Keir Starmer doesn’t want Jeremy Corbyn to be his MP and I can see Keir isn’t a fan of the Nordic, so that’s good thing. Scotland is likely going to have a Nordic model and if Scotland are thinking to leave the UK then a lot of horny Scots Going to be buggered.

[xyfek]

In England yes, but in Scotland they have no chance against the SNP (who simply have too many seats). Andrew Neil has just done an extremely good rant at them, and rightly criticised Boris’ remarks into the bargain.

I don’t like anti-Scottish sentiment, and to give the wee Crankie her due, she’s apparently handled the pandemic better than Boris and Princess NutNuts. But Andrew Neil was on the ball, rightly taking some of the wind out of the SNP’s sails.

External Link/Members Only

As to Labour Party in England a lot depends on Starmer. He’s pretty right wing for a socialist and his views as far as I can see on p4p is not abolitionist.
External Link/Members Only

He was also on the committee of the govt report that criticised the Nordic model.
External Link/Members Only

@xyfek Jeremy Corbyn is favoured of the Nordic model thank god he didn’t win last year.

Keir Starmer doesn’t want Jeremy Corbyn to be his MP and I can see Keir isn’t a fan of the Nordic, so that’s good thing. Scotland is likely going to have a Nordic model and if Scotland are thinking to leave the UK then a lot of horny Scots Going to be buggered.

That is reassuring, but they have some of the most vocal proponents of the Nordic model in their ranks. They're bound to make a push for it. Whether it will be official party policy or not remains to be seen.

[rathbone]

Without getting into the politics of it, definitely worth anyone who's interested reading through the Scot-PEP paper and making a submission to the government.  After all, there are thousands of sex workers and sex buyers, so we shouldn't allow a vocal minority to force through a law which might increase harm rather than their unsubstantiated claim of reducing it.

[bops909]

As the OP on this discussion I just wanted to say thank you for the contributions and debate up to this point. 

A few people have mentioned how easy it is to put in a view to the consultation. It is really straight forward to do so.

If you're not sure about whether you should, maybe have a look at the views of this international human rights organisation and what they  have learned from interviewing sex workers on three continents--that sex work is more dangerous in criminalized environments.

External Link/Members Only

  Thanks everyone who has contributed to this thread so far 

  And thank you to the mods I spoke to beforehand as well !