"They're taking our jobs"

[sparkus]

I know someone who owns a moderately successful builders.  Started with extensions, now does modest housing developments, that sort of thing.

Cannot.  For.  The.  Life.  Of.  Him.  Recruit.

Why? Most aren't willing to get hands dirty and work all weathers (not for everyone, I appreciate, but nor is university) but before you lay a single brick there's tea-making, hod carrying and piss-taking receipts to be had.  Most now just aren't willing to as they're too busy sat on Instagram plotting a way to Love Island.  That, by the way, is the assessment of careers officers to him.

[petermisc]

Any manual job has been over looked because there has been plenty to do them, they have known for years drivers and trades have an ageing workforce, companies have ignored this and not invested in the future, all about the bottom line these days

We have long relied heavily on foreign workers to keep manual wages low.  This has kept prices low.

We lost most of our manufacturing industries basically because foreign workers will do the work cheaper.  We import the goods.  For service industries, we have kept costs low by importing foreign workers.

If we are going to pay the kind of wages that attract UK workers, then we have got to be prepared to pay the kind of prices that go with that.  We can still import cheap TVs from places where wages are low.  The prices that are going to rise are in those sectors where the jobs have to be done locally.  Especially for sectors where wages are a large part of the cost, like care homes, nursing, building trades, hospitality and the like.  Not a lot you can do to automate most of these, you are reliant on trained workers.  If you increase wages in one sector, then competition for workers is inevitably going to raise wages across the board.  With the inevitable effect on costs and prices.  And if the costs of providing the NHS, council services, etc go up, either taxes will also need to go up, or services cut even further.

We might have been able to wean ourselves slowly off our dependency on foreign workers, but Covid has meant it has happened much more dramatically.

[PepeMAGA]

The problem with Brexit is that those wanting to remain knew what they were voting for. Those who voted to leave, all wanted to leave for different reasons e.g. bureaucracy, immigration, NHS etc

Give it a rest.
No politics, remember?

[lostandfound]

Struggling to explain how a lowly paid EE worker and their dependants are a burden to the state.Ok. Let's pretend you never said it.

The problem with Brexit is that those wanting to remain knew what they were voting for. Those who voted to leave, all wanted to leave for different reasons e.g. bureaucracy, immigration, NHS etc

Please answer me this question though. If protecting British jobs is so important to people that they're happy to put their name to a referendum that (to them) meant less migrant workers then where are your clothes produced? Where is the sofa in your front room made? Your shoes?

If you really want to protect British jobs then that is going to cost you my friend. Firstly in time, by making a bit of an effort to source British manufactured goods and secondly in money as British produced goods are largely more expensive than from the Far East or other parts of the world.

You'd have to be really uninformed not to understand that, so let's pretend you never said it. 

It's not about what I want - a vote was taken, action followed, and we are where we are.

I am sure a significant undercurrent in that vote was low wages being paid in many "working class" occupations, and yep the market may have to pay them more, and some lazy business managers will have to work on raising productivity and innovation instead of relying on cheap labour to bail them out.

I do find it amusing that Boris is telling the haulage industry to pay their drivers more. Won't go down well with many but then lorry drivers and other low paid workers also have a vote.

[dubs]

Give it a rest.
No politics, remember?

Brexit is no longer a political issue. Now that the effects are being felt, it is an economics, logistics, cost of living, quality of life issue.

[king tarzan]

Brexit was always intended to reduce the number of foreign workers here.  The combination of Brexit and Covid meant that what should have been a gradual decline in numbers became a sudden exodus.  Not surprisingly, significant numbers wanted to be back in their home countries, back with their nearest and dearest, at a time of crisis.  This has caused problems not just in the UK, but in other countries heavily dependent on migrant workers.

The big difference is that while they are likely to start going back to places like Germany, we have put up a big "we don't want you" sign.  Even with the HGV drivers, yes we might reluctantly be offering temporary visas, but we are still saying that we are going to kick them back out again at the end of the year.  Put yourself in their shoes, and why on earth would you chose to come here when there are far more inviting countries?

Thank you Nigel and Boris..

The positive immigration they made feel unwelcome
The negative immigration are more than welcome to munch and crunch away happily at benefits and housing..

Wow what a way to go 

[sparkus]

Give it a rest.
No politics, remember?

TBH I feared the worst when I first saw the subject heading in the topic list.

Then I remembered the same line in the "I hear you're a racist now, Father" part of that Father Ted episode

[daviemac]

Brexit is no longer a political issue. Now that the effects are being felt, it is an economics, logistics, cost of living, quality of life issue.

Do you really want to take a chance?   

[Marmalade]

The immigrants question has several sides. What people don't want (but aren't allowed to say) are Allawabbas setting up home, not integrating, the wife not working, and then having a family of nine kids. Temporary workers, which are needed, and which are the majority of fruit pickers, have to get up early, work in fairly rubbish conditions for low pay, but get to take the money home and with more in their pocket than a shit job in their own country. Nurses are also needed and get more permanent status and immigration job points. It's a simple equation that Australia I think has had for years: let in the people you need and keep the others out all but really exceptional cases.

Truck drivers aren't that badly paid -- 78K I think is mentioned -- but they took a big hit when the tax rules changed and they couldn't stick tax-free earnings in dividends, thus in effect taking a pay cut. Ok job if you enjoy being independent and travelling. Major drawbacks if you are addicted to home life or don't want to live in a box while on the road for several days.

The other thing we need IMO is highly trained scientists, mathematicians. Some of those could and should be fast-tracked from Hong Kong. Yet for some reason there seems to be a wide open door for anyone simply in the name of 'uman rites...

[Marmalade]

Scotland of course officially wants more immigrants. Clearly we must be short of criminals as the Scottish 'government' has also launched a campaign to help those having difficulties committing their regular business while imprisoned.
External Link/Members Only

If more criminally minded immigrants are allowed into the country, will they take the jobs of those currently selling crack cocaine or trafficking minors? Or would it be better at least to stop those so profiled from entering the country in the first place?

[king tarzan]

TBH I feared the worst when I first saw the subject heading in the topic list.

Then I remembered the same line in the "I hear you're a racist now, Father" part of that Father Ted episode

Kept within a framework of doable opinions should be fine

[RAJEC]

The whole thing has become a clusterfuck. The UK economy needs foreigners to keep it strong. The “they’re taking our jobs” brigade have likely never had a job and it’s more evident now than ever before. Even with free education access to everyone, we still continue to produce idiots.

[king tarzan]

The whole thing has become a clusterfuck. The UK economy needs foreigners to keep it strong. The “they’re taking our jobs” brigade have likely never had a job and it’s more evident now than ever before. Even with free education access to everyone, we still continue to produce idiots.

We should have idiot race courses🤣🤣🤣

[anyfucker]

The whole thing has become a clusterfuck. The UK economy needs foreigners to keep it strong. The “they’re taking our jobs” brigade have likely never had a job and it’s more evident now than ever before. Even with free education access to everyone, we still continue to produce idiots.

idiots indeed, i was sitting on the train and listening to a very fat woman try to force her small child to eat more chips even though the child said they had had enough:-(
the mother and granny were talking about living on benefits and getting the "council to pay" for them to stay in a hotel whilst they had a wet room fitted.

[RAJEC]

idiots indeed, i was sitting on the train and listening to a very fat woman try to force her small child to eat more chips even though the child said they had had enough:-(
the mother and granny were talking about living on benefits and getting the "council to pay" for them to stay in a hotel whilst they had a wet room fitted.

It’s not their fault to be totally honest. When you have a culture and government that promotes and sustains this type of demographic, what can you expect. What’s worse is those that really need help, will miss out on houses, food and support because the whales decided to have a hotel stay during their bathroom upgrade.

Despicable.

[Markus]

Brexit was always intended to reduce the number of foreign workers here.  The combination of Brexit and Covid meant that what should have been a gradual decline in numbers became a sudden exodus.  Not surprisingly, significant numbers wanted to be back in their home countries, back with their nearest and dearest, at a time of crisis.  This has caused problems not just in the UK, but in other countries heavily dependent on migrant workers.

The big difference is that while they are likely to start going back to places like Germany, we have put up a big "we don't want you" sign.  Even with the HGV drivers, yes we might reluctantly be offering temporary visas, but we are still saying that we are going to kick them back out again at the end of the year.  Put yourself in their shoes, and why on earth would you chose to come here when there are far more inviting countries?

+100

Even with nurses during COVID, they only offered temporary visas.  It really has become a race to the bottom in every sense of the word.  I read last week that Pret wants to employ 3000 new workers, the same number they laid off during COVID.  I for one hope they can’t fill the places.  Yes they are a business and can’t keep on losses but it’s the one year they should have put their employees first instead of their bottom line.

[Ali Katt]

I can't believe the amount of job vacancies at the moment especially in the hospitalty industry, seems that everywhere is short of staff.
A visitor attraction near me has one cafe on short hours and another closed and they told me that they just can't get staff to fill the jobs. It can't all be down to EU workers leaving the UK surely? I suppose a look at the unemployment figures would give a clearer picture of what's actually happening.

Assuming that no-one wants to do these jobs, admittedly they are mostly minimum wage, what are all the other jobs that they're now doing and where did those vacancies suddenly spring from?

I think a lot of people either got furloughed or just left. Bear in mind cafes, pubs and bars were closed for nearly 18 months. A friend of mine in 2020 is a chef, he cooked up the food he had left and donated it to a local homeless charity rather than let it spoil. Loads of people are worried another lockdown could see loads of closures, I've seen a few small coffee shops go, a massive Pret and a few pubs - one was even Greene King owned, say what you want about the beer being bad, they are one of the biggest brewers and chains in the UK.

[Ali Katt]

It’s not their fault to be totally honest. When you have a culture and government that promotes and sustains this type of demographic, what can you expect. What’s worse is those that really need help, will miss out on houses, food and support because the whales decided to have a hotel stay during their bathroom upgrade.

Despicable.

The government wants people on benefits. Distract them with stupid shit like free money and what do they spend it on: Netflix, iPhones and Sky - weapons of mass distraction. Keep them like animals in a cage and they don't pose a threat.

[Marmalade]

+100

Even with nurses during COVID, they only offered temporary visas.  It really has become a race to the bottom in every sense of the word.  I read last week that Pret wants to employ 3000 new workers, the same number they laid off during COVID.  I for one hope they can’t fill the places.  Yes they are a business and can’t keep on losses but it’s the one year they should have put their employees first instead of their bottom line.

And what on earth would that acheive?

[sir wanksalot]

TBH I feared the worst when I first saw the subject heading in the topic list.

Then I remembered the same line in the "I hear you're a racist now, Father" part of that Father Ted episode

I'm sorry. I only mentioned it as it was already being discussed in all but name

[Marmalade]

I'm sorry. I only mentioned it as it was already being discussed in all but name

I had to look it up to see what you're on about so might as well share...
External Link/Members Only

[cotton]

A proper wage is enough to live on rather than just exist. Some people who have jobs also receive universal credit because their pay is so low - the taxpayer is subsidising their employer.

Yes some people receive universal credit because their pay is so low , but this is because they work part time hours.
The government gives approx £400p/m as a figure needed to live on , so approx £100 per week. Universal credit entitlement reduces by .63p per £1 earned so this means that universal credit entitlement fizzles out at about the £160 per week mark. Based on minimum wage this equates to about 18 hours work per week.
Somebody working full time 40 hours per week at minimum wage earns well above the threshold and receives no universal credit.
So i would say that this is an issue of part time workers whos earning are sufficiently low that they still qualify for universal credit , rather than an issue of the taxpayer subsidising employers. 

[Ali Katt]

Yes some people receive universal credit because their pay is so low , but this is because they work part time hours.
The government gives approx £400p/m as a figure needed to live on , so approx £100 per week. Universal credit entitlement reduces by .63p per £1 earned so this means that universal credit entitlement fizzles out at about the £160 per week mark. Based on minimum wage this equates to about 18 hours work per week.
Somebody working full time 40 hours per week at minimum wage earns well above the threshold and receives no universal credit.
So i would say that this is an issue of part time workers whos earning are sufficiently low that they still qualify for universal credit , rather than an issue of the taxpayer subsidising employers.

Maybe there aren't full time jobs in some sectors. Zero hour contracts and unpaid trials sometimes lasting a week have been a cancer.

[lostandfound]

idiots indeed, i was sitting on the train and listening to a very fat woman try to force her small child to eat more chips even though the child said they had had enough:-(
the mother and granny were talking about living on benefits and getting the "council to pay" for them to stay in a hotel whilst they had a wet room fitted.

Not exactly anything new. When I lived down West we used to call these types "Pirates". Not inculcated by any contemporary govt - already endemic decades ago.

[Markus]

And what on earth would that acheive?

I just don’t believe that any kind of routine mass hiring and firing of employees is healthy for a business or an economy.  Costa and Pret do this regularly and I’m not in favour of it. 

[RAJEC]

I just don’t believe that any kind of routine mass hiring and firing of employees is healthy for a business or an economy.  Costa and Pret do this regularly and I’m not in favour of it.

I’ve read that the largest online retailer hire/fire regularly, which serves as a means of keeping the fittest employees. They haven’t done too badly, but I do agree with your sentiment somewhat

[JamesKW]

You are right abut tip of the ice berg, but wrong about settled status, that was no big deal if they lived and worked here, I know plenty that did it, there are other reasons some have gone home. A lot to do with it being home and it being not so easy to make a home here and lots of others, settled status sent some home, but not those that worked legally and wanted to stay.

Various reasons to return home,but coming to work here was only ever going to be short term,to earn as much money as possible,live in shared accomodation and return with as much money as possible to spend in homeland where you can get a lot more for your money. Many ended up staying because they had familys here,liked it more and ended up setting down roots.

[JamesKW]

I just don’t believe that any kind of routine mass hiring and firing of employees is healthy for a business or an economy.  Costa and Pret do this regularly and I’m not in favour of it.

Pret in London only employ foreign employees I believe they recruit abroad,but one consolation is they have been screwed by COVID and wfh.

[Pillowtalk]

Importing cheap labour from EE reduced the cost to business, but they were in effect being subsidised by the tax payer, as the low wages paid resulted in that labour / their dependents being a burden on the state.

Many of the EU workers I met and still meet are scientists, engineers, medics and other high skilled professionals. None of these are a 'burden on the state' - they are performing essential roles. we need to move on from this rubbish.

[JamesKW]

If more criminally minded immigrants are allowed into the country, will they take the jobs of those currently selling crack cocaine or trafficking minors? Or would it be better at least to stop those so profiled from entering the country in the first place?

Probably,in my area crime used to be run by Irish gangs,now it is more likley Albanians.

[Blackpool Rock]

Many of the EU workers I met and still meet are scientists, engineers, medics and other high skilled professionals. None of these are a 'burden on the state' - they are performing essential roles. we need to move on from this rubbish.

Yes the vast majority of those who came were young and relatively fit so didn't end up in hospital needing hip replacements etc so less than average burden on the NHS than the fat lazy home grown fuckers.

They also came to work so were earning and paying tax / NI instead of drawing unemployment benefit

Study after study has said they were net contributors but once the "Little Englanders" had spewed their bile for a decade enough other non thinking people were also of the same opinion to the point that it apparently became "Fact"

[lostandfound]

Many of the EU workers I met and still meet are scientists, engineers, medics and other high skilled professionals. None of these are a 'burden on the state' - they are performing essential roles. we need to move on from this rubbish.

That's just the circles you move in. Many of the EE immigrants I meet are from the best universities in their country and doing PHDs at the best universities here. But I don't fool myself that they are typical. When I stay in a chain hotel or buy a coffee etc it almost always seems that the staff speak with a central European accent.

[VolapUK]

They also came to work so were earning

And some are using some of that hard earned money to punt, let's not forget 

[sparkus]

And some are using some of that hard earned money to punt, let's not forget 

I've spent plenty of my income on EE arrivals to the UK.

[mradventures]

i do think they wherent a burden to the state on balance, because while they take up some resources like housing, seats on the bus etc, they where educated and will likely retire back home (thus we dodge the most expensive part of there lives - but gain on the profitable for state employed age bracket.)

but i do wonder if the "taking our jobs" thing has some merit, because of where we are now. before i figured things would naturally balance out (that the increased population here would need more stuff, so would create more jobs)

but things need to get better for those on the low end... nearly all the gains for the past however long have been at the top of society.

[RAJEC]

i do think they wherent a burden to the state on balance, because while they take up some resources like housing, seats on the bus etc, they where educated and will likely retire back home (thus we dodge the most expensive part of there lives - but gain on the profitable for state employed age bracket.)

but i do wonder if the "taking our jobs" thing has some merit, because of where we are now. before i figured things would naturally balance out (that the increased population here would need more stuff, so would create more jobs)

but things need to get better for those on the low end... nearly all the gains for the past however long have been at the top of society.

Incorrect.

Free council housing, benefits payments, free schooling… what more do they need to make things better?

[petermisc]

i do think they wherent a burden to the state on balance, because while they take up some resources like housing, seats on the bus etc, they where educated and will likely retire back home (thus we dodge the most expensive part of there lives - but gain on the profitable for state employed age bracket.)

but i do wonder if the "taking our jobs" thing has some merit, because of where we are now. before i figured things would naturally balance out (that the increased population here would need more stuff, so would create more jobs)

but things need to get better for those on the low end... nearly all the gains for the past however long have been at the top of society.

I don't understand your comment that 'the "taking our jobs" thing has some merit, because of where we are now'.  Surely where we are now, with companies unable to recruit, proves that they weren't taking our jobs.

What they did do was to keep wages low, and so keep prices low.  I don't see how you can claim that low prices only benefit those at the top of society.

Agreed that better wages would mean people would buy more stuff.  But the majority of that stuff is made in countries where wage costs are low, not here in the UK.   And the higher wages get in the UK, inevitably more will be outsourced to low wage countries.

[Marmalade]

If I get an immigrant with no papers to fix a lock, a leaky pipe, or some wiring it will cost me a quarter of what a registered, qualified workman will charge. The problem is that I won’t know if he is indeed an expert in his trade or merely a chancer needing a job. Tradesmen at the top of their game talk to me about their share portfolios, second house and still enjoy their work. Average solicitors stuck in conveyancing go home feeling they’re wasting their life.

We currently rely on an increasingly large proportion of doctors, nurses and specialist consultants from abroad. While there are quality training and assurance programmes in place, it would be worrying if their ‘accreditation’ was beginning to fall below standards of their British -trained colleagues.

We don’t need to “get more people into university”: we need to get more people into those jobs where they can excel and be fulfilled in life, whatever those jobs may be.

[jeanphillipe]

External Link/Members Only

 

I wonder if this lot have finally got jobs now the immigrants aren't there to steal them.

[Blackpool Rock]

External Link/Members Only

 

I wonder if this lot have finally got jobs now the immigrants aren't there to steal them.

Ah yes Ingerlunds finest 

[sir wanksalot]

That's just the circles you move in. Many of the EE immigrants I meet are from the best universities in their country and doing PHDs at the best universities here. But I don't fool myself that they are typical. When I stay in a chain hotel or buy a coffee etc it almost always seems that the staff speak with a central European accent.

Whereas their British counterparts are sat at home not wanting to embarass themselves by waiting tables.

[RAJEC]

Whereas their British counterparts are sat at home not wanting to embarass themselves by waiting tables.

I think the irony is also wasted on them 

[king tarzan]

Whereas their British counterparts are sat at home not wanting to embarass themselves by waiting tables.

Arrogance and entitlement
Pitfalls
Let them be..
Another group of fucken parasite's

[Colston36]

A "burden to the state"?

I really struggle to understand where this narrative comes from.

If EE labour was cheap then it was only cheap in that they were willing to do the menial jobs that the British unemployed didn't want to do. As I have said before. I don't know where or when we in this country we started thinking that every job has to be well paid. There are going to be well paid jobs and shit paid jobs but it's still a job.

Where do you get the idea that EE workers and their dependants were a burden on the state?

Your last point highly relevant. Repeated surveys here and in the US show that immigrants are better citizens in terms of paying taxes etc. Britain is a country built by immigrants, though I wish Boris's family had stayed away.

[Ali Katt]

Arrogance and entitlement
Pitfalls
Let them be..
Another group of fucken parasite's

True in some cases, but not all. It can be fucking hard to get a job. You need a thick skin to deal with rejection. Worse than Tinder.

[Ali Katt]

I don't understand your comment that 'the "taking our jobs" thing has some merit, because of where we are now'.  Surely where we are now, with companies unable to recruit, proves that they weren't taking our jobs.

What they did do was to keep wages low, and so keep prices low.  I don't see how you can claim that low prices only benefit those at the top of society.

Agreed that better wages would mean people would buy more stuff.  But the majority of that stuff is made in countries where wage costs are low, not here in the UK.   And the higher wages get in the UK, inevitably more will be outsourced to low wage countries.

I call it the Chinese model when it comes to goods. People will happily but 10 t-shirts at £5 each that last one wash than buy one £50 T-Shirt. I thought very little was manufactured in the UK, but there's more than I realised.

[JamesKW]

Britain is a country built by immigrants, though I wish Boris's family had stayed away.

Exactly, many were immigrants once, but whilst the first generation worked hard, this wasnt always carried over to the next.

[Blackpool Rock]

Exactly, many were immigrants once, but whilst the first generation worked hard, this wasnt always carried over to the next.

Ah yes the 3rd generation rule or "Rags to riches and back to rags in 3 generations"

• First generation: These are the people who work diligently to make things better for themselves and their family. In so doing, they build wealth. By the time they are ready to retire, they would have acquired significant assets, which they can then pass on to their children.

• Second generation: The second generation would have grown up seeing the struggles of their parents and, thus, be more likely to understand the value of hard work. They are able to make better financial choices and build on the wealth started by their parents

• Third generation: It is believed this generation often fails to understand the struggles and sacrifices that went into building their family's wealth. The premise is that because this generation grew up more financially stable, they fail to develop an appreciation of what is required to build and maintain wealth. They are, therefore, apt to make poor financial decisions and spend more freely, thereby leading to a loss of wealth.

[Ali Katt]

Ah yes the 3rd generation rule or "Rags to riches and back to rags in 3 generations"

• First generation: These are the people who work diligently to make things better for themselves and their family. In so doing, they build wealth. By the time they are ready to retire, they would have acquired significant assets, which they can then pass on to their children.

• Second generation: The second generation would have grown up seeing the struggles of their parents and, thus, be more likely to understand the value of hard work. They are able to make better financial choices and build on the wealth started by their parents

• Third generation: It is believed this generation often fails to understand the struggles and sacrifices that went into building their family's wealth. The premise is that because this generation grew up more financially stable, they fail to develop an appreciation of what is required to build and maintain wealth. They are, therefore, apt to make poor financial decisions and spend more freely, thereby leading to a loss of wealth.

I'm seeing groups of super rich Chinese and Pakistanis in the UK in their early 20s. Will see how it plays out.

[JamesKW]

I'm seeing groups of super rich Chinese and Pakistanis in the UK in their early 20s. Will see how it plays out.

These groups often have a high regard for education but ultimately that could be a problem, as you end up with too many lawyers/doctors/accountants and not enough tanker drivers.