Legal advice

[maxxblue]

I know that there are some really good sources of legal advice on UKP (e.g. Silverado), and I've learned quite a bit from the UKP discussions, such as , it is not illegal to visit a brothel - although it IS illegal to manage/run a brothel.

My question is, if one is caught in a brothel/massage parlour in a police raid, what is the best strategy to adopt?

Do I have the right not to reveal my name?

What would happen if I decided not to reveal my name?

If I decide not to reveal my name, do the police have the right to search me and find out my details from my wallet?

Should I accept a caution, or take a chance that I will not be prosecuted?

I had initally been concerned about being raided in a brothel without realising that it was a brothel, but now understand that this is not illegal for a punter - am I correct in thinking this?

I'd appreciate any advice!

[foxyc]

Why not avoid any brothels and stick to independent girls if possible?

[Corus Boy]

Never lie to the police or you will get done.

You can refuse to give your name but the police will then hold you until they establish your identity.

[CBPaul]

Tell the truth and give your name.

Prosecution or caution.... depends on if you want or need to keep things as quiet as possible. If it were me I would be contrite and accept a caution, prosecution leads to articles in local papers and I would avoid that at all costs. Local hacks will think it's Christmas if given the chance to report on a salacious story rather than than their usual uninteresting fodder.

I got pulled over twice when I used to street punt, took the telling off and nothing else happened. Struck me that it was easy money for the police as the punter would invariably be shitting themselves - I was - Any hint of arguing and no doubt they would have made life very difficult.

This does assume that you are caught with a girl of legal age and working freely. Otherwise you'd be fucked.

[vorian]

Tell the truth and give your name.

Prosecution or caution.... depends on if you want or need to keep things as quiet as possible. If it were me I would be contrite and accept a caution, prosecution leads to articles in local papers and I would avoid that at all costs. Local hacks will think it's Christmas if given the chance to report on a salacious story rather than than their usual uninteresting fodder.

I got pulled over twice when I used to street punt, took the telling off and nothing else happened. Struck me that it was easy money for the police as the punter would invariably be shitting themselves - I was - Any hint of arguing and no doubt they would have made life very difficult.

This does assume that you are caught with a girl of legal age and working freely. Otherwise you'd be fucked.

Only applies to kerb crawling,  in a police brothel raid the punter has not broken the law. Unless underage girls or forced girls. Can't recall many prosecutions for this as difficult to prove. Personally if you want out quick give you real name and details as lying to police is worse or say nothing unless they arrest you, but no point pissing them off.

[Thepacifist]

You have the right to remain silent, anything you do say, can and will be used in a court of law. Firstly, you should realise the difference between common law and statutes. All acts of legislation require the consent of the willing. Police constables (not officers) take an oath to the Queen and to uphold the common law of the land. You should record the encounter as evidence. You have the right to film.

If a constable says: 'give me your details' you should respond with: Am I obliged to give you my details? And or: Is that an order or a request? If they say it's a request, then you have the right to decline such request. If they say it's an order, you should ask under what law and you should demand the exact wording of said law. Without the exact wording, you would be unable to understand and therefore the law would not be able to be enforced.

External Link/Members Only

research danny shine @ socialexperimentalist and Charlie veitch on youtube.

[foxyc]

You have the right to remain silent, anything you do say, can and will be used in a court of law. Firstly, you should realise the difference between common law and statutes. All acts of legislation require the consent of the willing. Police constables (not officers) take an oath to the Queen and to uphold the common law of the land. You should record the encounter as evidence. You have the right to film.

If a constable says: 'give me your details' you should respond with: Am I obliged to give you my details? And or: Is that an order or a request? If they say it's a request, then you have the right to decline such request. If they say it's an order, you should ask under what law and you should demand the exact wording of said law. Without the exact wording, you would be unable to understand and therefore the law would not be able to be enforced.

External Link/Members Only

research danny shine @ socialexperimentalist and Charlie veitch on youtube.

Trouble is if you make life too difficult for the police by avoiding their questions, they will make life difficult for you.  For example they could detain you whilst they spend time ascertaining whether the girls are forced or not.  So best policy is to be honest.

[cockneybstrd]

You have the right to remain silent, anything you do say, can and will be used in a court of law. Firstly, you should realise the difference between common law and statutes. All acts of legislation require the consent of the willing. Police constables (not officers) take an oath to the Queen and to uphold the common law of the land. You should record the encounter as evidence. You have the right to film.

If a constable says: 'give me your details' you should respond with: Am I obliged to give you my details? And or: Is that an order or a request? If they say it's a request, then you have the right to decline such request. If they say it's an order, you should ask under what law and you should demand the exact wording of said law. Without the exact wording, you would be unable to understand and therefore the law would not be able to be enforced.

External Link/Members Only

research danny shine @ socialexperimentalist and Charlie veitch on youtube.

Interesting point. However you more likely to get the police wound up by that approach. Thats fine if your on student demo. But in the heat of raid your not going to be thinking clearly and your likely to find yourself in the wagon with some fat pc jumping on your back with that shit.

[Jimmyredcab]

My experience of the police is that it is not a good idea to be a smart arse, they can give you more problems than you give them, you have broken no laws, give them your name and go on your way, they will be interested in the brothel owner-- not you.

[Curious6705]

Should I accept a caution, or take a chance that I will not be prosecuted?

If you accept a caution does this not mean you then have a criminal record, which you must disclose eg to an employer.

Why would the police seek to caution you or prosecute you? Visiting a brothel is not in itself illegal.

[James999]

Should I accept a caution, or take a chance that I will not be prosecuted?

A caution for what ?

[MrMan1973]

It depends what you mean by a caution:

An official caution is where you are arrested, taken to a police station and interviewed. If you have no previous convictions then you are eligible for a police caution. If however the brothel has had forced/ underage prostitutes you could potentially be in a bit of bother.

'Words of advice' or a bit of a telling off is not a caution and will not show up in any CRB check - a caution will only show up in an Enhanced CRB check. As long as you're not a teacher, social worker or similar then your employer will not need to know.

Finally the poster who reckons the police need to quote the law verbatim otherwise they can't demand your details is talking horse doo doo. A constable can request/ demand your details if they have reasonable suspicion that you may have been involved in a crime.

[Corus Boy]

A caution for what ?

I think the OP meant if he was offered one, for some offence he may have committed.

Here is some easy reading;

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[James999]

I think the OP meant if he was offered one, for some offence he may have committed.

Exactly my point though WHAT FOR ?

You may as well debate life inprisonment or the death penalty it's just about as pointless 

[abdul]

My question is, if one is caught in a brothel/massage parlour in a police raid, what is the best strategy to adopt?

Do I have the right not to reveal my name?

What would happen if I decided not to reveal my name?

If I decide not to reveal my name, do the police have the right to search me and find out my details from my wallet?

Should I accept a caution, or take a chance that I will not be prosecuted?

 Hey bro the thing is police has the right to ask you about your details anywhere no matter wherever you're in a brothel or elsewhere and if you deny to reveal your details you will simply make things up resulting you have to stay longer with police investigation as initially they try to find if you have any criminal record. As it is not illegal to visit brothel for a guy but as a precaution don't try to involve any criminal or illegal activity like drugs..so if you face such situation don't try to make argument with police. They will simply ask your details or simply interview although it's weird sometimes if they take you on street to ask questions. Once I have had police raid in a brothel in 2009 at Statford and most disaster situation was when I was about to cum and sudden knocking at door one of the worst memory of life.

[Roland D Hay]

My experience of the police is that it is not a good idea to be a smart arse, they can give you more problems than you give them, you have broken no laws, give them your name and go on your way, they will be interested in the brothel owner-- not you.

Good advice Jimmy 

[Frederick]

You have the right to remain silent, anything you do say, can and will be used in a court of law. Firstly, you should realise the difference between common law and statutes. All acts of legislation require the consent of the willing. Police constables (not officers) take an oath to the Queen and to uphold the common law of the land. You should record the encounter as evidence. You have the right to film.

If a constable says: 'give me your details' you should respond with: Am I obliged to give you my details? And or: Is that an order or a request? If they say it's a request, then you have the right to decline such request. If they say it's an order, you should ask under what law and you should demand the exact wording of said law. Without the exact wording, you would be unable to understand and therefore the law would not be able to be enforced.

External Link/Members Only

research danny shine @ socialexperimentalist and Charlie veitch on youtube.

That's the old version. You don't have the right to remain silent now.

"You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention, when questioned, something you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence."

[jcdmj12]

The best approach with police them is to be unfailingly polite and respectful with them. However, you should educate yourself on what they are and aren't allowed to do, and stand firm on those things, without coming across as an "I know my rights" dickhead.  If you piss the police off enough, they will find something to arrest you for, even if they know they it won't stick.

Accepting a caution is very rarely a good idea, as it is taken as an admission of guilt and will remain on your record indefinitely.

Here is a good guide to dealing with police if you're unlucky enough to get arrested:

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Here is detailed info on the name and address issue:

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This PDF is also worth reading:

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The "no comment" thing is amazingly useful if you are doing something potentially criminal.  I've avoided arrest using it a couple of times in the past after the police realised that they weren't going to be able to trick me into admitting anything (not punting related).

[smiths]

I know that there are some really good sources of legal advice on UKP (e.g. Silverado), and I've learned quite a bit from the UKP discussions, such as , it is not illegal to visit a brothel - although it IS illegal to manage/run a brothel.

My question is, if one is caught in a brothel/massage parlour in a police raid, what is the best strategy to adopt?

Do I have the right not to reveal my name?

What would happen if I decided not to reveal my name?

If I decide not to reveal my name, do the police have the right to search me and find out my details from my wallet?

Should I accept a caution, or take a chance that I will not be prosecuted?

I had initally been concerned about being raided in a brothel without realising that it was a brothel, but now understand that this is not illegal for a punter - am I correct in thinking this?

I'd appreciate any advice!

Its not illegal to punt in a brothel, but if its proved a WG or more were underage, being coerced/forced or had been trafficked that could lead to legal bother.

My advice is give your name and address but nothing else, do not give false details as that could get you done. If they ask other questions say you wish to speak to a Solicitor before answering them. Yes this may annoy them but it also means you get legal advice and arent possibly incriminating yourself for anything the police discover.

You are perfectly entitled to say you wish to speak to a Solicitor before answering any more questions, the onus is on the police to find any evidence. If they did find any on the premises then they could arrest you but they would be doing that whether you answered their questions or not in my view. Its very rare i have heard of punters being arrested in brothels, the police are of course their because the owner, manager and any staff who actively help manage it excluding the WGs are breaking the law.

[Frenchie]

'You have the right to remain silent, anything you do say, can and will be used in a court of law'.........goes on 'you have the right to an attorney ..if you cannot afford one , -one will be appointed for you '.... As quoted in every American cop film !!

Sorry ,- this isn't even the old version !! Too many American crime films watched by 'Thepacifist'

Old version .' You are not obliged to say again unless you wish to do so , but anything you do say may be taken down in writing and given  in evidence '

And I agree with all the other posters ..when somebody else is holding ALL the cards - don't piss them off !!!!!!

[Corus Boy]

In the UK:

I am arresting you for [The crime they committed ].

You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court.

Anything you do say may be given in evidence.

Do you understand?

[Thepacifist]

'You have the right to remain silent, anything you do say, can and will be used in a court of law'.........goes on 'you have the right to an attorney ..if you cannot afford one , -one will be appointed for you '.... As quoted in every American cop film !!

Sorry ,- this isn't even the old version !! Too many American crime films watched by 'Thepacifist'

Old version .' You are not obliged to say again unless you wish to do so , but anything you do say may be taken down in writing and given  in evidence '

And I agree with all the other posters ..when somebody else is holding ALL the cards - don't piss them off !!!!!!

External Link/Members Only

[Farmboy]

In the UK:

I am arresting you for [The crime they committed ].

You do not have to say anything, but it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court.

Anything you do say may be given in evidence.

Do you understand?

And they also now have to explain to you the necessity for the arrest at the time

[cockneybstrd]

If you get arrested nothing can be inferred from your silence if once provided with legal counsel you answer the questions instead of relying on stuff you later require in court.

It is always worth bearing this in mind if your nicked for what ever reason

[helmsdale]

If you accept a caution does this not mean you then have a criminal record, which you must disclose eg to an employer.

Why would the police seek to caution you or prosecute you? Visiting a brothel is not in itself illegal.

If you are doing a sensitive job, your offer of employment will depend on you disclosing to your prospective employers all of your past cautions and convictions and then ones incurred during your employment.

[Silverado]

1. My question is, if one is caught in a brothel/massage parlour in a police raid, what is the best strategy to adopt?

Your chances of being caught in a brothel raid are extremely  slim. As others have said, don’t be gobby with the police. They don’t like it. There’s a time and place for it. Being caught in a brothel wearing just a condom, probably isn’t the right time. Chances are that you’ll just be asked to get dressed and leave. Best to do that without any fuss. Don’t insist on a refund. Watch when you leave, in case the media are outside taking photos. If you’ve parked your car outside consider whether it’s actually a good idea to walk over to it. It may be best to leave it and come back later.

2. Do I have the right not to reveal my name?

The police may or may not take punters names. There are very few circumstances where it’s a criminal offence not to give your name etc. to the police. Being caught in a brothel raid isn’t one of them. There may be consequences though.

3. What would happen if I decided not to reveal my name?

If the police are told at the pre-raid briefing back at the station to make sure that they take names then they’re going to be very reluctant to let you go without doing so. That’s when they use the “Ways and Means Act”. They could start talking about coerced foreign girls. That may be of concern if you’re with a Romanian girl etc. They could say that you match the description of the brothel-owner and they need to eliminate you from their enquiries. There isn’t actually a Ways and Means Act. It just means that if the police want to do something very often they’ll find a way of doing it.

Personally I would give my details, because I doubt that anything would come of it. It’s not illegal to visit a brothel. It’s very easy for the CPS to prove that premises are a brothel. They don’t need punters as witnesses, and besides punters make very poor witnesses in brothel-keeping cases. Your details will get written down in the pocket-book, and that’ll probably be the end of it.

Former Labour MP Joe Ashton was caught up in a brothel raid in 1998 with a 21 year old Thai girl in Northampton. He refused to give his name, much to the frustration of the police. Eventually they let him go, but rather sneakily followed him to his car and got his registration number. These days I think they’d just threaten to arrest for suspicion of paying a girl subjected to force etc.

If you do give a false name (which I wouldn’t recommend) then you could be facing the more serious offence of obstructing a police officer in the execution of his duty.

4. If I decide not to reveal my name, do the police have the right to search me and find out my details from my wallet?

Generally, no. Not unless you’re arrested.

5. I had initally been concerned about being raided in a brothel without realising that it was a brothel, but now understand that this is not illegal for a punter - am I correct in thinking this?

Yes. That’s correct. It’s not illegal to visit a brothel or pay for sex. It’s illegal to pay or promise to pay for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force (ie. force, threats, coercion or deception). I’ve yet to come across a single reported case of anyone actually having been convicted in the Magistrates court since the law came into force 4 years ago.

6. Should I accept a caution, or take a chance that I will not be prosecuted?

Personally. I would never accept a caution for this offence. The CPS will be very reluctant to prosecute. The offence was clearly designed to deter punters and not to be used to prosecute them. In the unlikely event that it ever got that far, you’d be well advised though to seek specialist legal advice and not rely on what you read in a punting forum.

[Ludwig]

5. I had initally been concerned about being raided in a brothel without realising that it was a brothel, but now understand that this is not illegal for a punter - am I correct in thinking this?

Yes. That’s correct. It’s not illegal to visit a brothel or pay for sex. It’s illegal to pay or promise to pay for the sexual services of a prostitute subjected to force (ie. force, threats, coercion or deception). I’ve yet to come across a single reported case of anyone actually having been convicted in the Magistrates court since the law came into force 4 years ago.

When I first stumbled across the FOI request below, I initially thought that the maker of the request, one Mr Ado Silver, must have been made by UKP's resident legal eagle himself 

External Link/Members Only

[Silverado]

When I first stumbled across the FOI request below, I initially thought that the maker of the request, one Mr Ado Silver, must have been made by UKP's resident legal eagle himself 

External Link/Members Only

Yes. That was my FOI request. I'm fairly sure that the reply is incorrect though. I've never seen any reported cases in the media. There was a similar, but earlier request, where the MoJ or Home Office  confused section 53 with section 53A. I think that's what happened again.

I can't believe that 43 people were convicted in the first year and not one single case was recorded in the press or media.

[Ludwig]

Yes. That was my FOI request. I'm fairly sure that the reply is incorrect though. I've never seen any reported cases in the media. There was a similar, but earlier request, where the MoJ or Home Office  confused section 53 with section 53A. I think that's what happened again.

I can't believe that 43 people were convicted in the first year and not one single case was recorded in the press or media.

Given my own experience of the incompetence of the MOJ in the past, I suspect you're right about the confusion - I too wasn't aware of any supposed 53A convictions (until I read that FOI); and 43 annual convictions for Section 53, rather than 53A, sounds more plausible (albeit lower than I'd have thought)...

[Frenchie]

Old version .' You are not obliged to say again unless you wish to do so , but anything you do say may be taken down in writing and given  in evidence '

What a time to do a typo !!!!!..   Of course it should have  read  'You are not obliged to say ANYTHING...............'

As for the  youtube link--- WTF has that got to do with anything ? .  (besides  showing that the film maker is a total knob )

[wristjob]

You have the right to remain silent, anything you do say, can and will be used in a court of law. Firstly, you should realise the difference between common law and statutes. All acts of legislation require the consent of the willing. Police constables (not officers) take an oath to the Queen and to uphold the common law of the land. You should record the encounter as evidence. You have the right to film.

If a constable says: 'give me your details' you should respond with: Am I obliged to give you my details? And or: Is that an order or a request? If they say it's a request, then you have the right to decline such request. If they say it's an order, you should ask under what law and you should demand the exact wording of said law. Without the exact wording, you would be unable to understand and therefore the law would not be able to be enforced.

External Link/Members Only

research danny shine @ socialexperimentalist and Charlie veitch on youtube.

Some really handy information there, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't test any of it if I were caught in a raid on a brothel. s others have said don't piss the police in that situation off because they could make it so much more embarrassing for you.

AIUI there's nothing illegal unless you are caught inside an underage/trafficked girl. If you aren't an idiot that shouldn't really happen (and I don't think anybody has been done for it to date) and they generally aren't interested in the punters - don't give them reason to be interested.

Will look at some of that if I'm in a different police situation though.

[Silverado]

Given my own experience of the incompetence of the MOJ in the past, I suspect you're right about the confusion - I too wasn't aware of any supposed 53A convictions (until I read that FOI); and 43 annual convictions for Section 53, rather than 53A, sounds more plausible (albeit lower than I'd have thought)...

This is the previous FOI request that I referred to:

External Link/Members Only

As you can see, the request was specifically about section 53A (ie. the new offence introduced in 2010).

The reply referred to section 53 (controlling for gain) and gave numbers of convictions which obviously pre-dated the 2010 offence.

I think it's down to the way that the MoJ categorise the offences. They tend to lump them together for recording purposes.

Probably not helped by the fact that s.53A didn't become a recordable offence until 30 July 2012.

We were told in December 2008 that the police expected to prosecute 300 cases a year.

"Police expect to close up to 1,200 brothels and prosecute 300 men a year under new laws designed to crack down on prostitution. The figures are contained in official Home Office impact assessments produced to accompany the Policing and Crime Reduction Bill, due to be debated by MPs in the new year."

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In a BBC article in 2011:

"Greater Manchester Deputy Chief Constable Simon Byrne, who is the Association of Chief Police Officers' lead on the issue of prostitution, said he was "surprised" at how many convictions there had been because the law "is difficult to prosecute".

External Link/Members Only

[Thepacifist]

Old version .' You are not obliged to say again unless you wish to do so , but anything you do say may be taken down in writing and given  in evidence '

What a time to do a typo !!!!!..   Of course it should have  read  'You are not obliged to say ANYTHING...............'

As for the  youtube link--- WTF has that got to do with anything ? .  (besides  showing that the film maker is a total knob )

What it showed was Danny not giving his details.

To be fair, I've researched more in to this and have now seen videos of the police arresting people for not complying. Whether they would be charged or not I don't know. I don't believe so, but it's probably not worth testing it in a brother type situation.

[vorian]

Nice to have fact and not guesswork posted. 

[DJ Fruit Polo]

Nice to have fact and not guesswork posted. 

+1