Trafficking Concern/Reporting

[Barnabus]

I know there's been some old threads about this, but I want to ask.

If you were to be seriously concerned about a girl (as in really seriously worried), or saw a very nasty looking set up. Would you report it to the police and if so how?

I know that you can report to crimestoppers anonymously.

I'm asking because obviously, I'm quite seriously concerned.

[vw]

Crimestopers best safest bet since that lowlife Harman introduced her law. 

before that law I would have reported normally if single and did so.

It is now also an offence to make or promise payment for the sexual services of a prostitute if the prostitute has been subjected to "exploitative conduct" (force, threats or deception) to bring about such an arrangement for gain. This is a strict liability offence (clients can be prosecuted even if they did not know the prostitute was forced).

External Link/Members Only

[Goldfinch]

External Link/Members Only

[Barnabus]

Crimestopers best safest bet since that lowlife Harman introduced her law. 

before that law I would have reported normally if single and did so.

External Link/Members Only

Noted. Thank you.

[scutty brown]

Some police forces publish direct phone numbers and e-mail addresses for the senior staff in charge of specific geographic areas, or with specific responsibilities.
I've had success in the past e-mailing through a chuckaway e-mail address, and including an untraceable PAYG phone number if they need more details.

[s0whatsnew?]

Listen; there's no such thing as anonymity in the digital world.  Even a throwaway payg phone can be traced thru its gps triangulated communication with base stations (there's some debate whether this happens even when turned off) and subsequent proximity tracing to  your main phone and hence your identity.

Whether a police force would go to that length for a non-priority (to them) situation, who knows.   On the other hand its simply a matter of setting up a computer search to do the data-crunching until there's a result.

I did once contact an NGO for the same reason as the OP outlines.  They also wanted my full personal details - to my surprise - before they would take me seriously.

So; for me, its back to old-fashioned pen on paper, envelope and stamp for this kind of thing.   Even then, police forces are very wary of acting on anonymous information for fear of score-settling or revenge attacks.

Well, good luck, OP.   

[HarryZZ]

Listen; there's no such thing as anonymity in the digital world.  Even a throwaway payg phone can be traced thru its gps triangulated communication with base stations (there's some debate whether this happens even when turned off) and subsequent proximity tracing to  your main phone and hence your identity.

Whether a police force would go to that length for a non-priority (to them) situation, who knows.   On the other hand its simply a matter of setting up a computer search to do the data-crunching until there's a result.

I did once contact an NGO for the same reason as the OP outlines.  They also wanted my full personal details - to my surprise - before they would take me seriously.

So; for me, its back to old-fashioned pen on paper, envelope and stamp for this kind of thing.   Even then, police forces are very wary of acting on anonymous information for fear of score-settling or revenge attacks.

Well, good luck, OP.   

Going slightly off topic here, but there's a lot of stuff unsaid about phone tracing by the police, on the one hand, I think it was those thieves that drilled into the Hatton Garden safety deposit box vault, the police found where they'd been staying and found a SIM card which had been cut up and burned yet they managed to get enough data off it to link it with other phones, then tracked back though time to see where it had been who they had contacted and what other phones had been at the same places at the same time, then tracked all those, clever stuff. Then you get those those two lots of people round Salisbury who been affected by the nerve agent, and they're asking the public is anybody knows where they'd been (although there were some very strange goings on and a lot of unasked and unanswered question with that one)

There's a drift towards becoming cashless, new laws surrounding bank accounts with the police now having the power to check your bank account without permission or even informing you, as was said earlier linking two phones even when you think one is anonymous, it's not going to get any better for punters.

[Lizzie_Lockhart]

If you feel the escort was being coerced you can fill in an anonymous report to UnseenUK who deal with modern day slavery and human trafficking

Here is a link to their reporting page - External Link/Members Only

xx

[Happyjose]

Crimestopers best safest bet since that lowlife Harman introduced her law. 

before that law I would have reported normally if single and did so.

External Link/Members Only

So the punter could commit an offence at the point of booking via AW, or by text/email/phone, simply by responding to an advert and without/before actually meeting the girl.

And here we have a punter with concerns who will probably choose not to raise those concerns with the authorities due to potential ramifications

Ill-thought-out piece of ineffective legislation that serves nobody, and could actually contribute to the trafficking problem.

Not dissimilar to reports of prostitutes calling the cops after being robbed/assaulted and ending up being prosecuted themselves and having assets seized for running a brothel

[Jimmyredcab]

Crimestopers best safest bet since that lowlife Harman introduced her law. 

before that law I would have reported normally if single and did so.

Another law that has proven impossible to enforce ------------------ never heard of a punter being prosecuted.   

If I decided to report my concerns about an establishment I would send a letter to the local nick with details of the address and phone number, obviously it would be anonymous.

If you simply report a place because the girl doesn't appear happy then you will end up reporting all Romanians. 

[Billy no mates]

If you feel the escort was being coerced you can fill in an anonymous report to UnseenUK who deal with modern day slavery and human trafficking

Here is a link to their reporting page - External Link/Members Only

xx

I have used this before, it’s pretty good, they will want to get in contact with you if they want more details. Allthough they do ‘delete all data’ related to you if you ask. You can contact anonymously, however I would imagine they may, if they get lots of information, maybe ‘risk score’ the anonymous data lower.

I didn’t use it for an escort, it was for Eastern European workers locally, so was not an issue for me.

[scutty brown]

I presume you are referring to these two threads?
https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=212090
https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=203754

This is a repost of my thoughts from there, the other threads need reading to make sense of it:


"For some Romanian groups this is pretty standard practice: go and stand outside a nearby house so they can see if you are alone, or in uniform. Has happened to me several times, one of my reviews mentions it.
Doesn't mean the girls ARE trafficked, but its a possible indicator.
Personally I would have reported it. This comes under West Yorkshire Police, and their relevant webpage is
External Link/Members Only

they say report via the Modern Slavery Helpline on 08000 121 700.

The problem here is that we don't know the actual house the girls are working from: number 26 is a cutout, once they'd seen you outside there they would have given you the actual address, maybe next door, maybe through a back entrance to an upstairs flat, or maybe through a communal front door to a block of flats

If you want to report it, go through the rigmarole again and get the actual address and then walk. If you go ahead with the booking in the suspicion the girl is trafficked then you're in the shit if she's picked up. Make sure your car is out of sight and that you are using a PAYG SIM card so the pimp/gang can't track you"

In your case, you seem to have met the girl, so report it. As long as you report the facts in good faith the police are unlikely to prosecute you

[scutty brown]

just a footnote to the above
I've found that the head of the West Yorkshire Anti-Trafficking team is Detective Chief Inspector Warren Stevenson
It should be possible to reach him through this web page
External Link/Members Only

[Thecunninglinguist]

When people report modern day slavery incidents in good faith, it is not in the interests of the police to pursue the informant too far if it is obvious that person has reasons remaining anonymous. It would be counter productive. Of course ideally they would like a statement from someone to use as evidence for their case but they are pragmatic enough I am sure to realise that if they chase people too hard and start encroaching on  private lives, then information will just dry up altogether. This site's members are by and large supportive of reporting and that will be known and noted. How many reports would it take from members with a bad experience or being outed at home for this to dry completely? Yes technically it is  fairly easy to trace a mobile number and locations but not in administrative terms. Papers have to be served on phone companies with the reason for the request and as there are many thousands of requests made to investigate actual serious criminal activity, someone reporting something via a hotline would be VERY unlikely to be checked out. It's a matter of scale and time.

[pewpewpew]

Honestly would Harmens law be enforced in most circumstances? I would imagine that it's there so that the guy who bangs an obviously underaged crying girl with black eyes etc can't say that he didn't know.

If I got arrested for banging a 30 year old looking girl who was all smiles and sunshine who just so happened to be trafficked, I would never report any concerns ever again, and would advise others not to

I'm not a lawyer but I imagine that there's a difference between the laws wording and its intent

[The Owl]

Sounds like a fucking mess to me. Legislation in place to arrest and prosecute traffickers but information that will put off a punter reporting what he thinks may be forced prostitution. It almost sounds like the laws have been constructed to discourage punters from reporting potential slavery crimes so that the police and legal system don't have to do anything.

[scutty brown]

If you report accurately and without bullshit its very unlikely anything will happen to you.
Key thing is that as soon as you realised something was wrong, you stopped and decided to make the call. You'll get some heavy questions, just play it straight

[itsmydrug]

If you report accurately and without bullshit its very unlikely anything will happen to you.
Key thing is that as soon as you realised something was wrong, you stopped and decided to make the call. You'll get some heavy questions, just play it straight

This would be my advice too, I couldn't live with myself knowing I did nothing to help, we are talking about another persons life after all.

[vw]

If you report accurately and without bullshit its very unlikely anything will happen to you.
Key thing is that as soon as you realised something was wrong, you stopped and decided to make the call. You'll get some heavy questions, just play it straight

except end up on plenty of databases, maybe be pestered as a witness and they have your name/details for any future law changes to monitor.

A

[s0whatsnew?]

Exactly.   The police just love having as many pps as possible on their databases, are trigger-happy to arrest so as to legally take a DNA sample which becomes the property of ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) which is a PRIVATELY financed organization.   Creeping privatization of law 'n order.

BTW, the NGO recommended by Lizzie L  half a page ago wants to install cookies on anyone who writes to them online.   Now why do they do that?   Advertisers ?   I don't think so.

Do we have a paranoia emoji?   

[scutty brown]

Exactly.   The police just love having as many pps as possible on their databases, are trigger-happy to arrest so as to legally take a DNA sample which becomes the property of ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) which is a PRIVATELY financed organization.   Creeping privatization of law 'n order.

BTW, the NGO recommended by Lizzie L  half a page ago wants to install cookies on anyone who writes to them online.   Now why do they do that?   Advertisers ?   I don't think so.

Do we have a paranoia emoji?   

Paranoid bollocks
You're completely wrong

[s0whatsnew?]

Paranoid bollocks
You're completely wrong

Which bit?   The modernslaveryhelpline  or ACPO ? or both?

[Thecunninglinguist]

Exactly.   The police just love having as many pps as possible on their databases, are trigger-happy to arrest so as to legally take a DNA sample which becomes the property of ACPO (Association of Chief Police Officers) which is a PRIVATELY financed organization.   Creeping privatization of law 'n order.

BTW, the NGO recommended by Lizzie L  half a page ago wants to install cookies on anyone who writes to them online.   Now why do they do that?   Advertisers ?   I don't think so.

Do we have a paranoia emoji?   

A load of  ill informed paranoid BOLLOCKS. For a start ACPO  has not existed since 2015 and the only national database they had any access to as an organisation was the DVLA database. They contracted to the government to supply car parking companies etc with keeper details for which they charged. They should not have done it IMHO but there you go.

[scutty brown]

Which bit?   The modernslaveryhelpline  or ACPO ? or both?

your entire post is paranoid bollox

[horsa]

Listen; there's no such thing as anonymity in the digital world.  Even a throwaway payg phone can be traced thru its gps triangulated communication with base stations (there's some debate whether this happens even when turned off) and subsequent proximity tracing to  your main phone and hence your identity.

Whether a police force would go to that length for a non-priority (to them) situation, who knows.   On the other hand its simply a matter of setting up a computer search to do the data-crunching until there's a result.

I did once contact an NGO for the same reason as the OP outlines.  They also wanted my full personal details - to my surprise - before they would take me seriously.

So; for me, its back to old-fashioned pen on paper, envelope and stamp for this kind of thing.   Even then, police forces are very wary of acting on anonymous information for fear of score-settling or revenge attacks.

Well, good luck, OP.   

how about if you only have a throwaway payg phone? yes they can trace this but what are they going to trace it to if you dont have a main phone or contract phone? 

[s0whatsnew?]

how about if you only have a throwaway payg phone? yes they can trace this but what are they going to trace it to if you dont have a main phone or contract phone? 

Good point.

[s0whatsnew?]

A load of  ill informed paranoid BOLLOCKS. For a start ACPO  has not existed since 2015 and the only national database they had any access to as an organisation was the DVLA database. They contracted to the government to supply car parking companies etc with keeper details for which they charged. They should not have done it IMHO but there you go.

Yes, ACPO dissolved in 2015 but its replacement body, the NPCC, is just as ambiguous.   Read wikipaedia for details of acpo's remit, including admin of the national DNA database.   You may remember the recent furore over their refusal to delete the dna records of suspects found innocent or never charged.  Acpo's status as a private company (but funded by the Home Office and regional police forces) meant that they had no accountability or meaningful oversight.   Doesn't that make you just a teensy bit suspicious?

So now NPCC.   Aagh!   Go to the Questions and Answers  section of their website.   Some of the juicy bits:
Q. What is their legal status?  A. 'A national unit hosted by the MPS (Met) but independent of it.' !!! Q. Are you subject to  Freedom of Information requests?  A.  Long story short: No!  (my precis-ing here)  Q. What are the oversight arrangements?  A. Blah blah, blah blah.  (my abrevs again)

BTW,  one of the former bigwigs of acpo, Sara Thornton, is now in the equivalent role of npcc.   I could go on, there's plenty more detail tucked away in Section 22a Agreement pdf, but i'll wait for you to call my bluff.   

[s0whatsnew?]

your entire post is paranoid bollox

Did you actually look at the modernslaveryhelpline website?   Does it push cookies or not?   

[horsa]

Good point.

they can only track you if you have 2 phones, is that what you meant? they use the payg phone to locate your movements and then find out who you are via the contract phone?

[s0whatsnew?]

they can only track you if you have 2 phones, is that what you meant? they use the payg phone to locate your movements and then find out who you are via the contract phone?

More or less, yes.    Apart from that, triangulation is so finely tuned that the base station can decide at least in some locations, whether a phone - any phone - is on a ground floor or upper floor.   The difference  shows up on my own self-location map at my place.  Gobsmacking.   

[DUX]

A 'Nokia 3310' or a letter as suggested earlier is probably the only safe way to do this anonymously. It's a shame that our governments surveillance fetish puts people off doing the right thing easily.

[scutty brown]

Did you actually look at the modernslaveryhelpline website?   Does it push cookies or not?   

all websites push cookies
just use CCleaner if it worries you

[s0whatsnew?]

all websites push cookies
just use CCleaner if it worries you

 

[scutty brown]

I dunno what point you're trying to make, but cookies are easy to beat.
As for your comments about phone triangulation, if you're that worried just limit where and when you have it turned on.
But the truth is the police are so limited by manpower they'd only try that tactic if they thought you were a major criminal. They've not got the time to waste. Besides which they have some major legal hoops to jump through before they start tracking phones

[s0whatsnew?]

I dunno what point you're trying to make, but cookies are easy to beat.
As for your comments about phone triangulation, if you're that worried just limit where and when you have it turned on.
But the truth is the police are so limited by manpower they'd only try that tactic if they thought you were a major criminal. They've not got the time to waste. Besides which they have some major legal hoops to jump through before they start tracking phones

Firstly, cookies are not necessary to identify a person emailing or looking at a website.  That can be done simply by tracing back the IP number of the site visitor.   

The purpose of cookies is to spy on that IP's viewing history of other sites.   When done by commercial interests its annoying but can be seen as a part of modern economics.  When done by a social-value organization like the modernslaveryhelpline that depends on the goodwill of its informants, I become very, very, suspicious.  Our ability to disable those cookies is irrelevant; its the fact that an org purporting to uphold human rights is happy to invade my privacy behind my back.   Would you respect an individual person who does that?   I think not.   Why then would you shrug your shoulders just because its an automated computer function?

You're right, of course, that most sites push cookies as a default.   Maybe that helpline simply hasn't thought about it, or isn't even able to turn them off.  Maybe someone ought to have a friendly chat with them.

Another possibility (my own hunch) is that the police have advised them that for a report to be taken seriously there needs to be this level of background intel on the informant.    The point is not that its unlikely that the police would use that intel against you or I or the OP, but that they can if they want to.  I rest my case.   

[scutty brown]

Of course it loads cookies - they're session cookies for the webforms on the site.
If you think the police are going to waste time tracking you, you're mad: they don't have enough manpower and those people they do have think cookies come in biscuit tins.
Seriously, they'll only track your phone and web history if they think you're a major criminal - and even then they have to jump through multiple levels of permissions.
There may be a theoretical risk: there isn't a real one.

[itsmydrug]

I dunno what point you're trying to make, but cookies are easy to beat.
As for your comments about phone triangulation, if you're that worried just limit where and when you have it turned on.
But the truth is the police are so limited by manpower they'd only try that tactic if they thought you were a major criminal. They've not got the time to waste. Besides which they have some major legal hoops to jump through before they start tracking phones

Splitting hairs i know but the police dont have that capability, it gets passed on to the the various military groups who specialize in that field. They dont have time for insignificant errands like that and are understaffed trying to stop the next UK attack or tracking baddies in some #####stan country anyway.

[Marmalade]

I remember the days when punters could just approach police with a tip off. Before the big purge in the Glasgow SW scene you could just go up to a copper and mention that so-and-so prossie had tried to nick your wallet or something. It was before the immigrant trafficking scandals but I’m sure you would have been able to do the same if you saw a dodgy situation. They didn’t take your name or anything, just said thanks very much as it helped them to keep an eye on the ones suspected of criminal intent.

Imagine with the law still like that. You came out of a booking and felt something was dodgy. Mention it to a copper on the street. No third degree. They wouldn’t break the door down or take it as gospel or anything. Just say thanks for the tip off so they could be aware. Keep an eye out for evidence and do their job instead of harassing people or making people too nervous to report a suspected serious crime.

[Thecunninglinguist]

Of course you could always get around the whole issue by using a public payphone !

[Londonpunter30]

Keep seeing dodgy profiles in Croydon popping up for well over 3 months.. same pics, same mobiles, same crap text on a daily basis.. one punter even created a profile linking this all together saying they are trafficked.. aw have still done fuck all about it

[scutty brown]

Keep seeing dodgy profiles in Croydon popping up for well over 3 months.. same pics, same mobiles, same crap text on a daily basis.. one punter even created a profile linking this all together saying they are trafficked.. aw have still done fuck all about it

Then do something about it: find the address and tell the police
But don't shag any of the girls - that would be a deliberate offence