Old Trafford protest

[Bertiebeenthere]

Morning all,

Do these protesters really think the Glazers will sell Utd?
It's not a football club anymore, it's a privately owned business and most businesses have debts, as long as the debt is less than the market worth there are no issues.
I could understand the fans' ire if Utd were hovering just above the relegation zone.
They're in 2nd place in the best/hardest league in the world, albeit with a one in a million chance in winning it and probably in the final of the Europa League.
Since the Glazers took over they have won at least 19 trophies.
Can someone please explain what their gripe is?

BBT

[David1970]

Looking at the pictures on the TV looked like a hooligans day out, scum are always scum.

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[lillythesavage]

While you are correct, no need for violence at all, though tv interviews and radio phone ins with genuine supporters not involved in the violence were people just wanting a football club back, which few are now in the premiership.

They are playthings and money makers for those with plenty of it anyway, Asset stripping and running up debt is par for the course, usually to fill their coffers more.

The super league announcement was badly timed, towards the ending of restrictions with people desperate to get out, and has backfired badly. Supporters are reacting against these billionaire club owners and have realized for years that football is being ruined by their greed, this was the final straw and has motivated genuine supporters to group and react, thugs have no place in that, but the seed is sown.

West Ham, now homeless and renting is a case in point, where has the money gone from the sale of Upton Park? You cannot tell me the board spent it on players, or that they were not involved in building the housing estate now there, making more money and it was blatant asset stripping with no consideration for the other local business it has killed, many survived on match day takings.

[ratedj]

Morning all,

Do these protesters really think the Glazers will sell Utd?
It's not a football club anymore, it's a privately owned business and most businesses have debts, as long as the debt is less than the market worth there are no issues.
I could understand the fans' ire if Utd were hovering just above the relegation zone.
They're in 2nd place in the best/hardest league in the world, albeit with a one in a million chance in winning it and probably in the final of the Europa League.
Since the Glazers took over they have won at least 19 trophies.
Can someone please explain what their gripe is?

BBT

Unless someone makes them an irresistible offer it is unlikely that the Glazers will sell, but that does not stop the fans from having a right to protest against the ownership. Unfortunately, there was a small minority whose actions overstepped the mark and went against the ethos of the protests.

Since the Glazers acquired the club in 2005, Man United have acquired over £1 billion in debt, due to the Glazers taking out a loan to purchase the club. Yes, it's not unusual for businesses to have managable debts, but prior to 2005 United were a debt-free club. You said, 'As long as the debt is less than the market worth there are no issues,' but the issue is that that money being taken out of United to service the debt could actually be used to strengthen the club. This latest protest has of course been exacerbated by the ESL proposals. The whole ESL episode has highlighted the need for reform in football governance/onwership.

[ratedj]

Looking at the pictures on the TV looked like a hooligans day out, scum are always scum.

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There will always be a small minority who ruin things for everyone else, but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

[cideruk]

Interesting just how much they have spent on players (graphic on MotD) only topped in Europe by Man C

Ticket prices haven't rocketed
Huge amounts spent in transfer windows

Not sure what the fans are annoyed about?

Is it just because Liverpool won the league last year and their neighbours are going to win it this season?

[Coriniumstud]

Why didn’t they protest Thursday Night at home to Roma ?
Oh yeah that’s a trophy they can win
Scum will always be scum and they have plenty of it

[Yankee21]

slashing a coppers face.
Instant loss of public support

[ratedj]

Why didn’t they protest Thursday Night at home to Roma ?
Oh yeah that’s a trophy they can win
Scum will always be scum and they have plenty of it

I know you should never answer a question with a question, but had the fans protested on Thursday v Roma do you believe that that would have had the same effect as protests prior to a game v Liverpool?

[cideruk]

I know you should never answer a question with a question, but had the fans protested on Thursday v Roma do you believe that that would have had the same effect as protests prior to a game v Liverpool?

Probably more worried UEFA would award the tie to Roma

[ratedj]

Probably more worried UEFA would award the tie to Roma

No. The Liverpool v United game in January had an average of 4.5 million viewers, the biggest audience for a game shown only on Sky Sports in Britain and a figure only bettered by Game of Thrones.

[Blackpool Rock]

This article charts the history of how they arrived at yesterdays protests.

The current owners do appear to be taking money out while saddling the club with debt, from the fans point of view I can see why they maintain this is money that should be spent on players; training facilities and ground improvements etc

Many years ago a rich local businessman with a few Million spare would own the football club and often not expect to turn a profit, it was more like a pet project however these days it's big business and some owners want to plunder the honey pot.

Question is what happens to Utd if they decide to sell  It needs someone else with a hefty bank balance to take it over and how much say would the fans still have, realistically a fans consortium is unlikely to raise enough cash to buy the club.

The fans complain that the Glaziers haven't come over but in the aticle it said they previously had death threats so why the fuck would they 

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[chrishornx]

No. The Liverpool v United game in January had an average of 4.5 million viewers, the biggest audience for a game shown only on Sky Sports in Britain and a figure only bettered by Game of Thrones.

[/color]

really ?

are you saying Game of Thrones has the largest uk viewing figure ?

that sounds way off the mark

[The0neAnd0nly]

[/color]

really ?

are you saying Game of Thrones has the largest uk viewing figure ?

that sounds way off the mark

Its probably for Sky subcription viewing figures only.

I'm sure Charles and Diana wedding did around 20 million terrestrial and World Cup Final 66 something similar


Edit: link confirms World Cup Final most watches UK event ever followed by Diana's funeral. 32 million each

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[chrishornx]

Its probably for Sky subcription viewing figures only.

I'm sure Charles and Diana wedding did around 20 million terrestrial and World Cup Final 66 something similar


Edit: link confirms World Cup Final most watches UK event ever followed by Diana's funeral. 32 million each

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And Line of Duty, I'm a Celebrity, Gavin and Stacey, Call the Midwife etc. etc

[Coriniumstud]

Didn’t Eastenders get the most when Den gave Angie divorce papers at Xmas

[ratedj]

Its probably for Sky subcription viewing figures only.

Exactly this.

[Markus]

Who do they think has £3 billion to buy the Glazers out?  Also why would you sell one of the most valuable clubs in the world?  Compared to Real Madrid, the debt Utd have is a pittance.

The fans (if you can call them that) should realise that the Glazers aren’t going anywhere.  There was a far bigger protest when they took over but that eventually subsided.  It’s weird for them to protest when Utd are on the up.  Yes the super league was a bad idea but give the manager around £100 million a year to invest in the squad and you have a real possibility of winning major silverware in the next few years.  Sometimes it’s far better to have ownership who is in the background. The biggest problem Utd have is that their stadium needs an upgrade and it will hit their transfer plans in years to come.

[David1970]

Glad to see the police have started making arrests of the scum that attacked them, hope the courts come down hard on them.

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[lamboman]

slashing a coppers face.
Instant loss of public support

Exactly and as usual the apologists describe them as not football fans and a minority when in fact they are football fans and a significant monority.

[JontyR]

No one buys one of the biggest clubs / institutions in the world unless they intend for them to continue to be so. As such I always found the attitude of the United Fans a little bit odd, the club sold its soul way before that.

And the thing is, very few of the fans who were there on Sunday would have protested if it were them that could have clinched the championship that day.

Not disputing that they feel that the club is not being run in the way it should be. But is it a protest at lack of involvement or the ownership model....or because they think that it is stopping them winning the trophies they were used to a decade ago.

[Fac51]

Man ure "knocked off their perch" by Liverpool and Man City (their 2 biggest rivals)

Priceless 

[Stevelondon]

Not so much a protest as a bunch of idiots on a jolly.
Our brave coppers getting bottles thrown at them for fucks sake.

They don’t know how fortunate they are.

I’m a fucking Newcastle supporter.

[Gordon Bennett]

It's clear that the access media just don't "get" football. All this guff about football being "saved" from the nasty super league and hero fans pushing for 51% ownership of "their" clubs. FFS!!! The Premier League is a television extravaganza owned by foreign billionaires. It's risible to think a bunch of Herberts and Chavs can have some say in his its running. The horse bolted from the stable nearly 30 years ago when 20 clubs broke away from the football league.... They made their bed then so they can fuck off and lie in it as far as I'm concerned. They can take their shitbag deluded entitled moronic fans with them as well. Take a knee on the way too. Pricks!

[ratedj]

It's risible to think a bunch of Herberts and Chavs can have some say in his its running.

Somewhat of a generalisation, but anyhow, this might, or might not, be of interest to you.

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Just to note, it was actually 22 clubs that broke away to form the new Premier League!

[chrishornx]

There will always be a small minority who ruin things for everyone else, but you cannot tar everyone with the same brush.

Who are defined a 'small minority'

those who actually injured police?
those who threw things at police?
those who invaded the pitch?
thise who smashed windows?
those who broke into the VIP lounges ?
those who hurled barricades and spat at police and their horses?
those who threw flares at police?

seems to me the small minority was pretty big

[winkywanky]

Exactly and as usual the apologists describe them as not football fans and a minority when in fact they are football fans and a significant monority.

I think you mean significant moronity  .

[winkywanky]

A police officer was dragged and kicked and another suffered a fractured eye socket in clashes with protesters outside Manchester United's ground.

Plus a copper was slashed with a Stanley knife or something? 

An utter fucking disgrace  . Ban them for life, from attending any football match.

[TomTank]

Don't know where to start with this.
The fight has been going on for 16 years because many knew what private equity investors meant.
They acquired the club without a penny of their own money and have bled it dry ever since. What they did should be a crime.
Football clubs were meant to be community assets for the fans, and owners to be the ultimate fans, not financial rapists.

This all needs reversing, and the Glazers should walk away with nothing.
To make an omelete you have to break some eggs.

[TomTank]

Who are defined a 'small minority'

those who actually injured police?
those who threw things at police?
those who invaded the pitch?
thise who smashed windows?
those who broke into the VIP lounges ?
those who hurled barricades and spat at police and their horses?
those who threw flares at police?

seems to me the small minority was pretty big

You can believe anything the media wants you to believe.

[chrishornx]

You can believe anything the media wants you to believe.

of course. It is all a pack of lies and made up

[JontyR]

Football clubs were meant to be community assets for the fans, and owners to be the ultimate fans, not financial rapists.

It was publically listed before this though. And as a public limited company it had obligations to its shareholders more than to the "emotional stakeholders". Any soul of the club went before the Glazers arrived.

United and its fans are protected in a way that many clubs aren't in a way that they are worth more as real estate than as community assets. Any efforts that focus on securing these assets shouldn't be starting at United. 

[TomTank]

It was publically listed before this though. And as a public limited company it had obligations to its shareholders more than to the "emotional stakeholders". Any soul of the club went before the Glazers arrived.

United and its fans are protected in a way that many clubs aren't in a way that they are worth more as real estate than as community assets. Any efforts that focus on securing these assets shouldn't be starting at United.

The PLC was the start of it going wrong, but the Glazers have taken it to almost a criminal level.
I don't know what you mean by your second statement - United shouldn't be allowed to have decent owners?

[SamOmar]

Glad to see the police have started making arrests of the scum that attacked them, hope the courts come down hard on them.

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Why have the owners not commented on this incident, they should be held accountable just as much

[Blackpool Rock]

Why have the owners not commented on this incident, they should be held accountable just as much

Perhaps you could point us in the direction of what they have done that's illegal 

[Charlie Chalk]

Don't know where to start with this.
The fight has been going on for 16 years because many knew what private equity investors meant.
They acquired the club without a penny of their own money and have bled it dry ever since. What they did should be a crime.
Football clubs were meant to be community assets for the fans, and owners to be the ultimate fans, not financial rapists.

This all needs reversing, and the Glazers should walk away with nothing.
To make an omelete you have to break some eggs.

I don’t know where to start with this.

When were football clubs “meant” to be community assets for the fans? If this is (or ever was the case) then why did the vast majority become limited companies? Why not convert themselves into charities? Your view is the ultimate “jumpers for goalposts”, “Roy of the Rovers” sepia tinged fantasy of a past that never existed.

As for “bled the club dry”, that’s emotive nonsense. If that were the case they wouldn’t have one of the highest net transfer spend in World football and would not have been able to break the World Record fee for Pogba a few years back. No one is denying that they take money out of Man Utd to service the debt but there is no argument to say that the club would have won more trophies if they hadn’t. Their problem is that they can no longer dominate domestic football financially, thanks to the investments in clubs like Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool. What have Man Utd’s financial results been like since the Glazers took over? Better, or worse than before? Regardless, taking something away from someone who has bought and paid for it is called “theft” - why should the Glazers be robbed when they have done nothing wrong, except for steering the company they own in a different direction to the one their patrons (99.99% of whom know nothing of how to run a large organisation) would like?

Finally, what do you mean by your last comment? Who or what are the eggs that deserve to be broken as a result of people disagreeing with the board decisions of a private company? Does that mean I have the right to set fire to my local Asda because I disagree with their turnip prices?

These protests are as futile as they are stupid. Owners know exactly how fickle fans are, give them a few wins and a couple of shiny trinkets to cheer and they’ll be back onside before you can say “glory hunter”; just look at Chelsea a few years ago at the end of Mourinho’s 2nd spell. There has always been a nasty undercurrent to football supporters that allows and encourages the use of violence. Those responsible for the assaults on police should be given maximum sentences as a deterrent to their knuckle-dragging troglodyte friends.

[David1970]

Don't know where to start with this.
The fight has been going on for 16 years because many knew what private equity investors meant.
They acquired the club without a penny of their own money and have bled it dry ever since. What they did should be a crime.
Football clubs were meant to be community assets for the fans, and owners to be the ultimate fans, not financial rapists.

This all needs reversing, and the Glazers should walk away with nothing.
To make an omelete you have to break some eggs.

Man Utd is a business not a community asset, I don’t get where you get the community asset from? The owners are maximising their profit as all business owners do, if you think that’s wrong head for North Korea. Why should the owners of a business walk away from a business that is making them money?
The main story is thugs attacked the police who were doing their duty, they should be caught and put away. Justifying the thugs actions by attacking the owners who are maximising their profits is as they should is unbelievable.

[Blackpool Rock]

Man Utd is a business not a community asset, I don’t get where you get the community asset from? The owners are maximising their profit as all business owners do, if you think that’s wrong head for North Korea. Why should the owners of a business walk away from a business that is making them money?
The main story is thugs attacked the police who were doing their duty, they should be caught and put away. Justifying the thugs actions by attacking the owners who are maximising their profits is as they should is unbelievable.

Yeah after the initial protests in 2005 the "Community" focused alternative was set up so if people feel that strongly they can lend their support to the small upstart who in fairness have done very well in the time they've been formed.
The flip side of course is that there is still no success or big games to watch that are on the scale of Man Utd and no prospect of big European nights etc

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[JontyR]

I don't know what you mean by your second statement - United shouldn't be allowed to have decent owners?

Nope, don't mean that. I'm just saying that if there was a slice of revenues apportioned to the move towards protecting clubs that there are plenty of clubs pro / semi pro / amateur and grass roots that are at significant risk of being bought and stripped of assets that should be prioritised rather than to a club that is being run off its own profitability.

[TomTank]

Some people here clearly do not undestand why football exists.

I've lifted the below from a Guardian article (cue loads of looney leftie comments) which sums it up nicely:

The FA once took a robust view that clubs were not there for owners or directors to exploit. In 1899, just as professional, commercialised football was taking off, the FA imposed rules to protect the clubs' sporting heart. These allowed clubs to form limited companies, but prohibited directors from being paid, restricted the dividends to shareholders, and protected grounds from asset-stripping.

Later codified as the FA's Rule 34, these restrictions established the culture that being a club director was a form of public service, that directors should be 'custodians', to support and look after clubs. There never was a golden age of selfless club owners, but the system of clubs as not-for-profit companies did provide the basis for their phenomenal growth. Fans were never overcharged, which helped to encourage loyalty and return visits. .............

The FA and their rules were in need of updating as football itself changed and modernised, but instead they surrendered completely. When, in 1983, Irving Scholar's Tottenham Hotspur became the first club to announce the intention of floating on the stock market, the club's advisers asked the FA if Spurs would be free to form a holding company to evade the FA's restrictions on dividends and directors' salaries. The FA, who have never explained why, permitted Spurs to do what they wanted. Every other club that floated after that formed holding companies similarly, to bypass the FA's rules.

The reason that the FA surrendered completely was because they also had their snouts in the trough, and cared more for money than the principles established.

FA Rule 34 still exists, and most football clubs have been breaking it for the last 30 years of a 150 year old non-profit making "industry".

The owners hide behind lazy uninformed analysis of "it's big business", "These are limited companies", "Man Utd is a business not a community asset" (btw Joel Glazer himself described them as a 'treasure of the community'), “jumpers for goalposts”, “Roy of the Rovers”, sepia tinged fantasy of a past that never existed ....", "free market", but the facts of a past that did exist, are there in plain sight.

You wouldn't allow the British Army or The Church of England to be in these owners' hands to maximise profits.

[TomTank]

Nope, don't mean that. I'm just saying that if there was a slice of revenues apportioned to the move towards protecting clubs that there are plenty of clubs pro / semi pro / amateur and grass roots that are at significant risk of being bought and stripped of assets that should be prioritised rather than to a club that is being run off its own profitability.

I agree that the whole thing needs better regulation.
Generations of my family and friends have poured support into Manchester United - I don't see why we should be at the back of the queue .....

[SamOmar]

Perhaps you could point us in the direction of what they have done that's illegal 

maybe not illegal in hitting the police however they should be held accountable by the fans, premier league, FA, UEFA for that they have done leading up to this. I'm sorry but in my opinion throwing a punch pales in comparison to not caring about a community, making lots of people unemployed and grass roots clubs bankrupt . The list goes on ...

Face the fans Glazers

[JontyR]

Generations of my family and friends have poured support into Manchester United - I don't see why we should be at the back of the queue .....

And that makes you different to any other club how?

Didn't say that you should be at the back....just don't see why you should be at the front? Without going into the detail of the situations what happened to the fans of Bury or Macclesfield isn't going to be happening at Old Trafford any time soon.

Nothing can be done until the Glazers decide that they've had enough - but when they do then the options open to Man Utd will be far greater in terms of taking over their own assets than say a semi pro club with a ground in a town or village centre that is being eyed up by some housing developer.

[pegman8]

Looking at the pictures on the TV looked like a hooligans day out, scum are always scum.

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I thought the scum were east of the pennines about 40 miles form Manchester.
Let's be honest every club has it's share

[TomTank]

And that makes you different to any other club how?

Didn't say that you should be at the back....just don't see why you should be at the front? Without going into the detail of the situations what happened to the fans of Bury or Macclesfield isn't going to be happening at Old Trafford any time soon.

Nothing can be done until the Glazers decide that they've had enough - but when they do then the options open to Man Utd will be far greater in terms of taking over their own assets than say a semi pro club with a ground in a town or village centre that is being eyed up by some housing developer.

You said plenty of other clubs should be prioritized.
Why should I as a fan of my local club be pushed behind anyone, just because the success I helped generate has made us more of a cash cow to vultures?

Add Coventry to your list .... they're all a disgrace and should all be tackled as soon as possible, no priorites.
Of course, my main concern is United, but I want all clubs to be able to compete fairly .... I hate the Arsenal situation - a great club who used to be a great rival, but nowhere near it with Kroenke's control.

Not aimed at you, but the lack of knowledge, and crying about nasty thugs in this thread is astounding.

[Charlie Chalk]

maybe not illegal in hitting the police however they should be held accountable by the fans, premier league, FA, UEFA for that they have done leading up to this. I'm sorry but in my opinion throwing a punch pales in comparison to not caring about a community, making lots of people unemployed and grass roots clubs bankrupt . The list goes on ...

Face the fans Glazers

There was a bit more than a punch thrown, though. Do you really think that being upset at how your club is run justifies assaulting and injuring police? Or could it be that these reprobates are spoiling for a fight and looking for any excuse?

And how exactly have the Glazers been directly responsible for people losing their jobs and clubs being made bankrupt?

[David1970]

maybe not illegal in hitting the police however they should be held accountable by the fans, premier league, FA, UEFA for that they have done leading up to this. I'm sorry but in my opinion throwing a punch pales in comparison to not caring about a community, making lots of people unemployed and grass roots clubs bankrupt . The list goes on ...

Face the fans Glazers

They are accountable to their shareholders, they are a business. If their customers don’t like the owners then don’t buy their products rather than attacking the police.
Why do football fans think football clubs are different to any other business

[TomTank]

They are accountable to their shareholders, they are a business. If their customers don’t like the owners then don’t buy their products rather than attacking the police.
Why do football fans think football clubs are different to any other business

It's been explained above.
If you're not prepared to read and process what you have read, and haven't considered the facts, why should we bother answering you again?

[TomTank]

There was a bit more than a punch thrown, though. Do you really think that being upset at how your club is run justifies assaulting and injuring police? Or could it be that these reprobates are spoiling for a fight and looking for any excuse?

And how exactly have the Glazers been directly responsible for people losing their jobs and clubs being made bankrupt?

Nobody wants to assault or injure the police. In fact, the police were pretty helpful in allowing the protests to happen.
There are unsavoury incidents every day in life, at pop concerts, parks, hospitals, coronavirus protests, football grounds etc.
The minor skirmishing with the police was a result of somebody taking a piss against a wall and a cameraman shouting the police, then an over enthusiastic policeman attacked the pisser with a baton.

On the whole these were non-violent protests, but there will always be some nastiness when trying to effect social change.

The Glazers are despicable scum - some people need to put their "Man Ure" bias to one side and smell the coffee.
 

[ratedj]

They are accountable to their shareholders, they are a business. If their customers don’t like the owners then don’t buy their products rather than attacking the police.
Why do football fans think football clubs are different to any other business

Your comment exhibits a lack of appreciation and knowledge of the sport.