Would you ever (or do you) rent out flats/houses to SPs?

[deg_dilemma]

Just crossed my mind because rental demand is so high in my area and I'm sure SPs are struggling to find places to work from, so they often end up hopping around hotels which isn't always ideal.

A regular I see told me she finds it hard to book the apartment she uses, because many other SPs also book it and so they compete for the flat. She gets it once a month, for a week, but sometimes won't even get that.

I'm seeing more and more SPs renting out the somewhat worse apartments, like those in dodgy areas or with no parking, or no public transport. Just so that they can get a place to work from.

It got me thinking, must be a good business model where you can rent out short-term to SPs, taking into account the rental regulations, neighbours, safety etc.

I've thought about but it would be a hard one to swing by the Mrs 

I'd be really interested to hear if anyone here does rent to SPs, and how it works.

[Mkhelen]

The police and CPS see it as your a pimp
Making a profit on the escorts earnings

Even if its not cash but a service in exchange for payment of accommodation still the same thing in the CPS laws.

Legally it's very unsafe

Illegally you have the risk of taking a dogy one who will blackmail you effectively ending your business, your reputation and your marriage.

The clean up after removing a bad tenant will cost you loads too

Go to a reputable rental company
It's not like the porno

[Mkhelen]

Most SP use day use hotel room or Serviced apartments

If you really like the girl book her a hotel room as payment for the duration and activities seeking included

[willie loman]

many working girls use arbnb, it has in fact never been easier to find suitable accommodation, at least in a large tourist city, anyone who has an airbnb  is likely to have come across travelling brasilians and romanians of both sexes.

[flybynightpm]

I know of multiple landlords doing exactly this, hiring rooms and flats by the day/week, I've no idea how they square it up with their accountant or the law though. These examples are out of town, with and without neighbours. Go and look at the WS's site for rates under "Seeking/Offering". Imagine the hot water/heating bills LOL.

[deg_dilemma]

I should have clarified, that yes I meant rent out in like a Serviced Apartment or AirBnB kind of way.  Not a long term BTL rental.

I much prefer visiting SPs in apartments (rather than hotels or even houses) because they are usual easy to drive to and park at, or in London have very easy public transport. Hotels are OK but parking can be a nuisance especially with ANPR and CCTV, and of course you need to navigate the reception desk and work out how to get to a room without looking like a punter 

The apartments I referred to in my post above are those that we 'know' to be used by SPs. Like the flat one of my regulars uses - it's always an escort working there but a different one each week, and due to the demand she can only get hold of it once every few weeks. So they aren't 'normal' AirBnB flats: they must be known in SP circles because only SPs ever use them. And they are nice, clean, well taken care of.

As for the flat owner, they account for the rental income exactly the same way. It's just business income and you declare as usual and pay tax on profits. That much I do know very well 

Anyway I'm just spitballing. It would be interesting to see how this works as business proposition that suits the flat owner and the SPs.

[PumpDump]

The police and CPS see it as your a pimp
Making a profit on the escorts earnings

Even if its not cash but a service in exchange for payment of accommodation still the same thing in the CPS laws.

Legally it's very unsafe

Illegally you have the risk of taking a dogy one who will blackmail you effectively ending your business, your reputation and your marriage.

The clean up after removing a bad tenant will cost you loads too

Go to a reputable rental company
It's not like the porno

How can the police see you as a pimp? You rent out to a tenant, you have no idea what they are doing. If that was the case many of the owners of hotels such as travelodge/premier inn would be prosecuted as some of their hotels are basically whore houses!


And if they are willing to pay double the rent, then it would be worth it even considering paying for the cleanup.

[Mkhelen]

Your the registered home owner
If she gets arrested for running a brothel ie working with another sex worker
The landlord is contacted and prosecution does happen we see it so many times in the newspapers

Hotels are different

[PilotMan]

Your the registered home owner
If she gets arrested for running a brothel ie working with another sex worker
The landlord is contacted and prosecution does happen we see it so many times in the newspapers

Hotels are different

I'd be interested to see any such newspaper articles that support what you say, where the Landlord was unwittingly allowing a brothel to be run and was prosecuted 

First off, the burden of proof is on the law. The CPS would have to prove that you knowingly (or could reasonably have known) that a "brothel" was operating on your premises and that you facilitated it or turned a blind eye to it.

Second, you cannot be prosecuted for renting a property to an individual who is offering sexual services (which isn't illegal).

Third, for a long term rental, the renter would need to declare to the landlord who will reside there, and pass various tenant checks including identity documents. So a landlord would be protected by the false declaration of the renter if the renter was running a brothel.

Finally, most standard / template rental contracts have a clause stating that you cannot operate a business from the residence. So a landlord has further protection.

For Serviced Accommodation / Air BnB or similar short terms lets, the landlord is unlikely to have any knowledge of who is renting the property each week and it would be unlikely that the landlord will run any detailed checks.


So, in summary it's unlikely that you would get prosecuted as a landlord unless you were actually engaged in running a "Brothel".

[PilotMan]

The police and CPS see it as your a pimp -
Making a profit on the escorts earnings

Even if its not cash but a service in exchange for payment of accommodation still the same thing in the CPS laws.

Legally it's very unsafe

Illegally you have the risk of taking a dogy one who will blackmail you effectively ending your business, your reputation and your marriage.

The clean up after removing a bad tenant will cost you loads too

Go to a reputable rental company
It's not like the porno

That's all hyperbole and fluff about the CPS and Police - you're forgetting the high benchmark for burden of proof on the CPS and police.

Why would an SP blackmail a landlord and with what?

My two worst tenants were a disabled woman in a wheelchair, she caused the most damage I've ever seen. And it was nigh on impossible to evict her.

The second were a pair of 70+ pensioners who smoked like a chimney, despite the tenancy saying no smoking and despite them being warned about it and them declaring themselves as non smokers. The clean up bill was horrendous and they left owing '000's in unpaid rent. Try suing a 70+ pensioner, no chance of getting anywhere.

I think I'd rather take my chance with a sex worker who probably doesn't want trouble and / or attention and will pay their rent on time - quite often months in advance.

[Backstreetboy]

It is perfectly standard for leases - commercial or residential - to contain a clause prohibiting use for immoral purposes and a macho landlord may well choose to avoid the full legal route and appoint a firm of bailiffs to change the locks without any notice.

[PilotMan]

It is perfectly standard for leases - commercial or residential - to contain a clause prohibiting use for immoral purposes and a macho landlord may well choose to avoid the full legal route and appoint a firm of bailiffs to change the locks without any notice.

Don't be a clown, any firm of bailiffs wouldn't be doing that without the proper paperwork, maybe your mates from the pub.

But then you might just find you're actually falling foul of the law and end up getting yourself (as the landlord) a criminal conviction for harassment. Then you would be prohibited from being a landlord in future.

[Backstreetboy]

Without any notice is perfectly legal if accompanied by such as a Torts and Interference with Goods Act Notice

[daviemac]

That's all hyperbole and fluff about the CPS and Police - you're forgetting the high benchmark for burden of proof on the CPS and police.

Be careful about burden of proof with sex work, for example not knowing an escort is underage, trafficked or coerced is no defence in law.

[southern punter]

How can the police see you as a pimp? You rent out to a tenant, you have no idea what they are doing.

Except the original post was about marketing to SPs deliberately and specifically as a "SP-friendly landlord".  That's going to put you in a very grey area at best

[deg_dilemma]

Except the original post was about marketing to SPs deliberately and specifically as a "SP-friendly landlord".  That's going to put you in a very grey area at best

But it happens, obviously on a large scale going by how many SPs work from apartments all over the country.

I'm wondering how.

Most likely is an AirBnB model, at least legally speaking, and the person taking the apartment on short-term rent is at arm's length to the owner/agent. It sounds very easy this way. The real question is how the SP market is targetted.

[Watts.E.Dunn]

We have these here "serviced aparments" in Cambridge and their bloody expensive i reckon thats why very few touring girls come here or stop here!..

Local sites like watson house thats in the rabbit warren off station road a studio aparement is £136 – £169 per night

Two bed around £185 – £249 per night

All plus VAT at 20%

Does get a bit less expensive the longer you book!...

[deg_dilemma]

We have these here "serviced aparments" in Cambridge and their bloody expensive i reckon thats why very few touring girls come here or stop here!..

Local sites like watson house thats in the rabbit warren off station road a studio aparement is £136 – £169 per night

Two bed around £185 – £249 per night

If a SP is in demand, charges £150/hour and has 6 clients a day = £900/day ==> £4500 in a 5 day week let's say.

So then the bloody expensive £169 (£845/week) as you put it can be seen in perspective as very reasonable.

I just thought SPs would pay a premium to rent apartments for working purposes.

Mind you, I'm London based so even a normal let of a 2 bed flat is £2500/month here!

[pythondan]

In my neck of the woods there is a block of flats known as "4 floors of whores" which is very popular with touring girls. They do just seem to book via a web site and I don't think it is targeted at sex workers but the price - £90'ish per night - suits them.

If you have an AirBnB type property to rent out surely you just want reliable renters who don't trash the place. Is the OP hinting at some sort of payment in kind type scenario with his favourite girls? 

[KatieEdinburgh]

If a SP is in demand, charges £150/hour and has 6 clients a day = £900/day ==> £4500 in a 5 day week let's say.

So then the bloody expensive £169 (£845/week) as you put it can be seen in perspective as very reasonable.

I just thought SPs would pay a premium to rent apartments for working purposes.

Mind you, I'm London based so even a normal let of a 2 bed flat is £2500/month here!

I would not try run the numbers without the perspective of actually working yourself , its always wayyy wayy off every time clients attempt to do the maths. 6x a day, 7 days a week every week?  Nah. Theres ways to do 1k a day but its normally less clients higher rates than 150

[PilotMan]

Without any notice is perfectly legal if accompanied by such as a Torts and Interference with Goods Act Notice

I'm currently involved in such a case, so I am very familiar with the the act and how it is interpreted, (nothing to do with property rentals BTW).

I'm interested to learn how that legislation would apply, and how it would be used to override a tenants right to occupy?

[KatieEdinburgh]

If you have an AirBnB type property to rent out surely you just want reliable renters who don't trash the place. Is the OP hinting at some sort of payment in kind type scenario with his favourite girls?

I think he’s just thinking can charge more for SPs than regular tenants. Purely financial motives. Trying to profit off us is nothing new honestly lol

[KatieEdinburgh]

many working girls use arbnb, it has in fact never been easier to find suitable accommodation, at least in a large tourist city, anyone who has an airbnb  is likely to have come across travelling brasilians and romanians of both sexes.

Nah Willie it might be fairly easy to book an Airbnb in Edinburgh but in terms of costs it’s more expensive than ever. It does have an effect on tourers

[PilotMan]

But it happens, obviously on a large scale going by how many SPs work from apartments all over the country.

I'm wondering how.

Most likely is an AirBnB model, at least legally speaking, and the person taking the apartment on short-term rent is at arm's length to the owner/agent. It sounds very easy this way. The real question is how the SP market is targetted.

AdultWork

[PilotMan]

Be careful about burden of proof with sex work, for example not knowing an escort is underage, trafficked or coerced is no defence in law.

As part of the right to rent scheme, a landlord (or their agent) has to know the names and have proof of identity of anyone living at a property over 18, they should be named on the tenancy. For minors you only have the right to know their names and D.O.B.

Most landlords are using an agency to perform these tasks and vet tenants, so you are at "arms length" in most cases. When I sign a tenancy agreement on one of my properties, I have no idea who the tenant is or what they do for a living (I only see their name(s) on the agreement), my agent takes care of everything to their professional bodies specified standard and the requirements of the law.

That may not stop something illegal from happening, but it would most likely overcome the burden of proof requirements and provide a ground for my defence if something illegal happened on my property.

This all refers to landlords who are purposely and intending to act within the law and feel morally obliged to report any illegal activity from happening on their property. A rouge landlord, is a rogue landlord and the law is unlikely to be a deterrent.

For example, a landlord was recently convicted for renting properties to an Organised Crime Group for the purposes of growing cannabis. He was clearly aware of what was going on to a significant extent, and profited from the activities. He was both the landlord and the agent.

Except the original post was about marketing to SPs deliberately and specifically as a "SP-friendly landlord".  That's going to put you in a very grey area at best

If it was an SP working on her own, then that's not running a brothel and her activities would be legal. The renters status occupying the property is dealt with as above.

If the S.P. declares just herself and no minors and signs a tenancy to that effect, then you aren't involved in running or setting up a brothel.

[scutty brown]

Here's an example of a website dedicated to short-term lets for escorts
External Link/Members Only

others must exist, though obviously AirBnB and similar get used a lot.
But there are obviously people specialising in the trade - take Preston as an example, in the complex of flats around New Whore Lane there must be around 25 flats more or less permanently used by touring escorts. That has to be centrally organised through some kind of hidden agency. Besides that I know from past history that there are letting agents in the Lancashire towns who are perfectly happy to lease to girls and their pimps, no questions asked. And totally illegal.

[scutty brown]

If it was an SP working on her own, then that's not running a brothel and her activities would be legal. The renters status occupying the property is dealt with as above.

If the S.P. declares just herself and no minors and signs a tenancy to that effect, then you aren't involved in running or setting up a brothel.

It's not quite that clear cut.
Sections 34 and 35 of the 1956 act make it clear that a landlord who knowingly leases a property for prostitution commits an offence.
But there's section 36 as well which is a bit of a catch-all and open to interpretation. We've had arguments over it here before, though someone did actually point out that he believed it's never actually been used........
Anyway S36 reads
"Tenant permitting premises to be used for prostitution.
It is an offence for the tenant or occupier of any premises knowingly to permit the whole or part of the premises to be used for the purposes of habitual prostitution."
Notice it refers to "habitual prostitution" (which doesn't even need to be paid-for), nothing said about brothels so it applies to single sex workers.
The big ambiguity is in what's meant as "tenant or occupier". If you own a flat on lease-hold and then rent it out on a short-term basis who is the "tenant or occupier"? You or the visitor? Does it being a furnished flat make a difference?
I used to think it was clear-cut, now I'm not so sure.

[PilotMan]

Without any notice is perfectly legal if accompanied by such as a Torts and Interference with Goods Act Notice

I'm currently involved in such a case, so I am very familiar with the the act and how it is interpreted, (nothing to do with property rentals BTW).

I'm interested to learn how that legislation would apply, and how it would be used to override a tenants right to occupy?

Are you still waiting for your mate down the pub to advise you?

[PilotMan]

It's not quite that clear cut.
Sections 34 and 35 of the 1956 act make it clear that a landlord who knowingly leases a property for prostitution commits an offence.
But there's section 36 as well which is a bit of a catch-all and open to interpretation. We've had arguments over it here before, though someone did actually point out that he believed it's never actually been used........
Anyway S36 reads
"Tenant permitting premises to be used for prostitution.
It is an offence for the tenant or occupier of any premises knowingly to permit the whole or part of the premises to be used for the purposes of habitual prostitution."
Notice it refers to "habitual prostitution" (which doesn't even need to be paid-for), nothing said about brothels so it applies to single sex workers.
The big ambiguity is in what's meant as "tenant or occupier". If you own a flat on lease-hold and then rent it out on a short-term basis who is the "tenant or occupier"? You or the visitor? Does it being a furnished flat make a difference?
I used to think it was clear-cut, now I'm not so sure.

When all is said and done, at your police interview - "no comment".

The burden of proof is on the police and CPS 

[Doc Holliday]

It's not quite that clear cut.
Sections 34 and 35 of the 1956 act make it clear that a landlord who knowingly leases a property for prostitution commits an offence.
But there's section 36 as well which is a bit of a catch-all and open to interpretation. We've had arguments over it here before, though someone did actually point out that he believed it's never actually been used........

You mean Discussions surely? 

Yes it has been discussed before and I recall myself going down a rabbit hole looking into it.

This is section 34 of Sexual Offences Act 1956 External Link/Members Only covering Landlords and section 35 covering tenants External Link/Members Only

There is this FOI request which appears to show almost no recent cases being prosecuted under section 34 and slightly more under section 35. This compares to much higher numbers for keeping a brothel generally. It is important to note the caveat that the data is for cases commenced but not the outcome.

External Link/Members Only

Numbers for punters under section 53a SOA 2003 are also interesting?

[chrisintcov]

If you own a leasehold flat there will almost certainly be covenants imposed on the tenant in the lease. These covenants are described as redeemable or irredeemable.

If you breach a redeemable covenant, for instance to clean the windows. If you don’t clean the windows the freeholder won’t be able to take action against you if you do redeem the breach of covenant by subsequently cleaning your windows.

If you breach an irredeemable covenant, and selling sex from the flat will fall into this category then stopping selling sex won’t redeem the covenant. The freeholder will be entitled to forfeit the lease on the flat on the basis that the whole block of flats has irredeemably tarnished.  Think how many field reports euphemistically describe a block of flats as well known.

This is a matter for the civil courts, nothing to do with the criminal law or the CPS or definitions of a brothel or immoral earnings.

If you are the owner of a leasehold flat and you rent the property to someone who does sell sex from the flat you do risk losing the flat.

[Doc Holliday]

If you own a leasehold flat there will almost certainly be covenants imposed on the tenant in the lease. These covenants are described as redeemable or irredeemable.

If you breach a redeemable covenant, for instance to clean the windows. If you don’t clean the windows the freeholder won’t be able to take action against you if you do redeem the breach of covenant by subsequently cleaning your windows.

If you breach an irredeemable covenant, and selling sex from the flat will fall into this category then stopping selling sex won’t redeem the covenant. The freeholder will be entitled to forfeit the lease on the flat on the basis that the whole block of flats has irredeemably tarnished.  Think how many field reports euphemistically describe a block of flats as well known.

This is a matter for the civil courts, nothing to do with the criminal law or the CPS or definitions of a brothel or immoral earnings.

If you are the owner of a leasehold flat and you rent the property to someone who does sell sex from the flat you do risk losing the flat.

Yes it is important to point out the situation with civil law and flats which are owned but a leasehold applies (which is likely to be the majority situation) and you do indeed run the risk of losing the lease. You also point out that even if the selling of sex stops this may not prevent action. However I suggest in practice stopping the activity is likely to put a stop to any further threatened court action? It is fairly common for SP's who rent such flats to lose them for this reason due to pressure on the Landlord from other parties.

As Scutty pointed out earlier though there are some flats in some areas who become very well known as being used for prostitution over prolonged periods of time and often by multiple and varied users which seem to survive so it is far from clear cut. Still unwise territory to dabble in though.

[chrisintcov]

I would add that if you let a flat to a tenant who breaches the covenants in respect of the flat, you will almost certainly also be in breach of the mortgage conditions on your loan if you have one and therefore not only risk forfeiture by the freeholder but repossession by your lender.

[Mr Sinister]

Don't think I would, just wouldn't want any trouble from punters and my place being marked as a brothel.

I have thought about "renting" out a room, converting it to a temp studio for a girl to do camming/OF material.

[RandomGuy99]

Why complicate things?

Best to let the SPs sort themselves out with venues.

You just go visit them and pay.

Much less worry and stress and no chance of "creepy landlord who fancies a free shag and causes the SP grief when they say no" behaviour developing.

Don't mix business with pleasure.

[willie loman]

Nah Willie it might be fairly easy to book an Airbnb in Edinburgh but in terms of costs it’s more expensive than ever. It does have an effect on tourers

agreed that for one girl, cost is high, but two girls,  even 3, its affordable

[willie loman]

I would not try run the numbers without the perspective of actually working yourself , its always wayyy wayy off every time clients attempt to do the maths. 6x a day, 7 days a week every week?  Nah. Theres ways to do 1k a day but its normally less clients higher rates than 150

i agree punter maths tends to pick a good day, multiply by 5, multiply by 48, if it was that easy there would be loads of girls trying their hand

[RandomGuy99]

agreed that for one girl, cost is high, but two girls,  even 3, its affordable

But legally if you have more than SP working at a premises at the time then they'd be running a pop up brothel, which would be illegal.

[willie loman]

But legally if you have more than SP working at a premises at the time then they'd be running a pop up brothel, which would be illegal.

if you are only there for a week or two, chances of prosecution are virtually zero. For hookers the problem isnt the police, its the neighbours

[scutty brown]

But legally if you have more than SP working at a premises at the time then they'd be running a pop up brothel, which would be illegal.

But realistically as long as the girls keep a tidy house and keeps the nutters and druggies away the police won't bother. They're more interested in the girls safety than lawbreaking and put bluntly the modern police don't have the resources to bother with trivial brothel offences.

[RandomGuy99]

But realistically as long as the girls keep a tidy house and keeps the nutters and druggies away the police won't bother. They're more interested in the girls safety than lawbreaking and put bluntly the modern police don't have the resources to bother with trivial brothel offences.

Agreed, but if the neighbours alert the police due to high footfall then you have problems.

I've been to one flat where 5 eastern European SPs were working there are the same time. There was literally a queue round the block.  I arrived and saw the shit show and walked away.

[RandomGuy99]

if you are only there for a week or two, chances of prosecution are virtually zero. For hookers the problem isnt the police, its the neighbours

But you might get a load of grief from the neighbours and they might be harassing your visitors by taking number plates and photos of the comings and goings.

[DastardlyDick]

Agreed, but if the neighbours alert the police due to high footfall then you have problems.

Yes, the Police would (more or less) be obliged to act if enough credible complaints are received, if only as a "fly the flag" excercise.
High footfall, and stupid clients getting the address wrong can be the downfall of brothels, but it varies by Force Area. Years ago, Madame Becky tried moving premises having enjoyed a very tolerant Division of TVP, who only discreetly visited occasionally to check on the SPs welfare etc. Unfortunately, she moved to a different division where they were a lot less tolerant and got the full on raid treatment.

[johnd80]

never do that. it can bring problems.But if some one came through an estate agent and doing that you cannot do much about it as eviction could be expensive. I have a friend who was renting a house.He rented it to one european man.He paid  six month rent in one go with cash.Neighbours told him that he was bringing different women there most of them looked like escorts.But He could not evict him for 6months and because he has already paid rent.Because of neighbours complian,he asked him to leave after 6months

[PilotMan]

Any business savvy SP would have built up a war chest £££. This gives them bargaining power when it comes to negotiating rent and if they pay 6+ months in advance, it can help them avoid having employment and other checks.

But the caveat is savvy SP's, I reckon they're few and far between.

As johnd80 said, once you take the 6 months rent, you're going to be pushed to get rid of a tenant.

I had a similar problem with a tenant, they were a couple of pensioners and they paid 12 months in advance. After a few months I found out they were chain smokers and were slowly ruining the property. Both the agent and legal advisers said to let it run. They still stayed past the tenancy expiry notice and when I eventually managed to evict them, they left owing thousands in rent.