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Author Topic: What the fuck? Tell me I've been stupid (EAS)  (Read 13812 times)

Offline cunningman

She is.

Is this because she hates you?  Or her life?  And maybe her reliance on you?

As in - she gave up a career to do the kids thing and now she's left behind and dependent on you and
she wasn't when you hooked up (when you were equals) and now she is.

Easy to dismiss.  Even when talked about and agreed back then.  How much do you, and could she,
earn now?  (Not asking for that, just think about it)

Not pointing a finger, but you could see how she feels trapped as well.  Many of us have been in
this space.

Ask her what she needs to be happy?  Not as in 'I will pay' but like 'do you want independence?'.

Admission: we don't have an answer yet, and its been a while bubbling up.  Its not an easy subject.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 10:14:16 pm by cunningman »

Offline jimbobted

Is this because she hates you?  Or her life?  And maybe her reliance on you?

As in - she gave up a career to do the kids thing and now she's left behind and dependent on you and
she wasn't when you hooked up (when you were equals) and now she is.

Easy to dismiss.  Even when talked about and agreed back then.  How much do you, and could she,
earn now?  (Not asking for that, just think about it)

Not pointing a finger, but you could see how she feels trapped as well.  Many of us have been in
this space.

Ask her what she needs to be happy?  Not as in 'I will pay' but like 'do you want independence?'.

Admission: we don't have an answer yet, and its been a while bubbling up.  Its not an easy subject.
She hates me, she's told me that to my face and written it in her diary.
Yes, she gave up a reasonably successful career to look after kid No. 2 - that was entirely her idea and decision, although I think she does resent it.

Good idea, I'll ask her what she needs to be happy. I suspect the answer will be for me to have a personality transplant, but you never know.

Offline tp69

She hates me, she's told me that to my face and written it in her diary.
Yes, she gave up a reasonably successful career to look after kid No. 2 - that was entirely her idea and decision, although I think she does resent it.

Good idea, I'll ask her what she needs to be happy. I suspect the answer will be for me to have a personality transplant, but you never know.

Most of your responses suggest you're over the relationship, and presenting her with that question won't help as it won't change her current reference point. If you could turn the clock back to pre-kids, when things were best between you, was she the right person? If the answer is yes, then Pilot gave you what I think is the best advice in that you need to forget everything and give it 100% effort to salvage your marriage, but it'll mean starting to do a larger share of the child care, giving her back free time, perhaps nurturing her into doing things she enjoys again etc. In time this will change how she feels about you and you may rekindle what you had. If you're not prepared to be the bigger person, for whatever reason, including that you simply don't want to, then it sounds like it's over - whether you stay together or not. When both parties are digging their heels in, and resent each other, it will never work.

Offline jimbobted

Most of your responses suggest you're over the relationship, and presenting her with that question won't help as it won't change her current reference point. If you could turn the clock back to pre-kids, when things were best between you, was she the right person?
No.
I knew I was making a big mistake at the time, and I'm reasonably sure she did too.
Yes, we kind of resent each other. Her because she perceives me as lazy and uncaring, and me because perceived her as an unreasonably angry foul mouthed grump.
TBH I can't imagine ever fancying her again. Was talking to someone today about it and mused that a year or 2 ago there was probably something to be rekindled, but that's been snuffed out now (speaking for myself only here).
« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 11:17:25 pm by jimbobted »

Offline akauya

I intended to reply to your original post in the other thread but didn't get round to it.

Monogamy in humans is a fascinating subject and this predominant trait is believed to go back at least 1000 years. There is no doubt that as an evolutionary preference it has added structure and stability by creating family units and child protection, which in turn leads to building of a community and societal structure and enabled humans to evolve to where they have done.

There are subdivisions of monogamy and true ‘lifetime’ monogamy is now somewhat rare, especially as lifespan is greatly increased. Serial monogamy ie multiple relationships in a lifetime but monogamous in each one, is the norm and still the preferred globally. Even in societies where polygamy is more prevalent and acceptable, monogamy is apparently still the dominant choice.

Open relationships do of course exist although predominantly sexual rather than emotional, but by their very nature require both parties to be happy with this. This is also rare and whilst I personally have known of a number, I don't know of any which are emotionally open?

Cheers Doc, interesting posting as always.

No, I haven't met anyone in an emotionally open relationships either.  Although monogamy has indeed facilitated the rise of human evolution as you said, I think it was by sacrificing people's happiness (apologies for the awful generalisation). I suppose, the best solution for modern couples is one that aligns with their individual needs, values, and communication styles. Couples should be free to choose non-monogamous relationships, open relationships, or other type of relationship that suit their needs and desires. I think at some point in the future this will happen and society will be more open to different types of relationship to exist in the open and being the norm rather than the exception. Maybe then there would be fewer divorces and fewer unhappy couples.


@akauya and @doc
There’s an interesting book that discusses why humans are monogamous read a while ago. Human Evolution by Robin Dunbar I think it was.


Thanks for that; will have a look. If you're interested you can also read "Sex at Dawn" by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jetha. A popular book that deals with human sexuality and relationships in lay terms. Although it was heavily criticised by some academics I really enjoyed it.


Offline JontyR

She hates me, she's told me that to my face and written it in her diary.

Maybe she hates you because you read her diary.

Have you ever considered she may be very lonely? Or depressed?

Kids can be very isolating. Especially if you had a fulfilling life before hand.

Offline jimbobted

Maybe she hates you because you read her diary.

Have you ever considered she may be very lonely? Or depressed?

Kids can be very isolating. Especially if you had a fulfilling life before hand.
We are both lonely and depressed. She wasn't exactly outgoing before we had kids.
Maybe things will improve when she (allegedly) goes back to work in a few months.

Offline hamchang

I'll ask her what she needs to be happy. I suspect the answer will be for me to have a personality transplant, but you never know.

If she says that then its time to start dividing up the LPs and go your separate ways. Before you do that though make sure you considered all aspects of the bachelor lifestyle. Loneliness in people who have been in a long term relationship can be a killer even if it wasn't the best. Plan activities, hobbies aside from shagging, and build a support network. Lastly, why not move to Thailand and be done with it. East Pattaya is a great community.

We are both lonely and depressed. She wasn't exactly outgoing before we had kids.
Maybe things will improve when she (allegedly) goes back to work in a few months.

Mate of mine recently had the same after 22 yrs marriage the wife went back to work. She felt free again, valued, worth while and promptly left him.

Offline pantywetter

I’ve been down this route myself a few times.

A few good meets then I start planning the longer meets, the hotel outcalls, the dinner dates etc.

Then a bit of extra texting which is reciprocated.

Then a bit of extra time, then a meeting off the clock.

Then some difficult conversations because of you met.

Then the headfuck about their job.

Then the messy ending.

I must have read 50 stories like this over the years on punters forums and lived it myself.  Her cutting you off early is the right decision and the kindest thing she could have done for you. 

Any other way has no happy ending.


Offline jimbobted

I’ve been down this route myself a few times.

A few good meets then I start planning the longer meets, the hotel outcalls, the dinner dates etc.

Then a bit of extra texting which is reciprocated.

Then a bit of extra time, then a meeting off the clock.

Then some difficult conversations because of you met.

Then the headfuck about their job.

Then the messy ending.

I must have read 50 stories like this over the years on punters forums and lived it myself.  Her cutting you off early is the right decision and the kindest thing she could have done for you. 

Any other way has no happy ending.
Appreciate the insight. Depends what you're after I guess. I have no issue with her escorting, or with her other sexual activities. I wasn't expecting her to make any promises, just wanted to hang out and have mutual fun when it was mutually convenient.
Perhaps that's incredibly naive of me, or perhaps it would have been great fun.
Still don't understand why she appeared to make herself available in this way to then ghost. Of course people are entitle to change their mind, but she could have just said so. One to put down to experience and in future I won't let my guard down again - I've always pushed back against apparent genuine affection from escorts and will try to stick to that in the future.

Online Nagilum

First, don't feel daft. The real issue is the marriage at home. That is the source of all your problems and you found somebody you could escape with and forget the misery. The truth is, you need to sort what is going on at home.

As for the escort in question, its likely she came to her senses. You said it yourself, she had a relationship with a punter previously and that didn't (seemingly) end well. So she is likely avoiding the mistake, and you probably became too clingy towards the end, which we know women run from. I'm totally an outsider and just guessing.

EAS sucks, I've had girls express a desire to have a relationship and each time I have declined and continued seeing them as business. Develop a harder skin, keep punting and rotate your regulars. Don't feel attached and just move on to the next greatest thing.

Offline rubric

No I don't think that was the case.
Nope, not naming her in a public forum.
Correct.
She is.

My advice, which you probably won't like; It's not going to be particularly productive to try and work out exactly why she reacted the way she did, would you really prefer if it had been a much more complex denouement? Because I suspect you just wanted it to 'work', as we all do in that situation.  Ghosting - from either side - is pretty common these days, and if you let it get under your skin it can be a complete head fuck.

Yes, it could be the snog, maybe she saw you in more a platonic frame, and that crossed streams, equally it might not be, for whatever reason she had a re-think and it's not productive to think of what you might have done differently.  To an extent successful relationships work out because there is a bit of tolerance for error on both sides, absent that and you are stepping on eggshells trying to find a perfect path.

Offline Plan R

Fuck me what a thread.
I feel for the OP (and even the misses somewhat).
I'm in my mid 50s now and at the point where the Captain Sensible song 'Glad its all over' sums up my love life.
Women are strictly 'recreational use only' now.
I'm not saying that attitude is big or clever or defensible - it's just where I am now, having had my heart and dreams and home shattered numerous times - just like so many have.
Mates who are smarter, nicer, richer harder working, better looking than me can't hold their relationships together either.
Fuck that  :wacko: find another brass mate and move on.
#uttercynicinlatterlife
#sorry/notsorry
All the best to you OP 🍺

Offline PaulRuff

Watched an interesting psychology vid on YouTube yesterday, premise was that in the main 'modern' women treat men the way men treat jobs... it's about the whole package offered, emotions don't really come into it & if a better offer comes along they'll likely take it and move on.  It's not at all personal, just business in their mind.

Offline PilotMan

Watched an interesting psychology vid on YouTube yesterday, premise was that in the main 'modern' women treat men the way men treat jobs... it's about the whole package offered, emotions don't really come into it & if a better offer comes along they'll likely take it and move on.  It's not at all personal, just business in their mind.

Link?


Offline akauya

External Link/Members Only

I'm sorry but the guy sounds just like another Red Pill advocate spouting sweeping generalisations about women all wrapped in an envelope of "academic" study. Interesting how he "he specializes in men's mental health and healthy masculinity"... now where have I heard that before?

Offline PilotMan

... now where have I heard that before?

I was thinking the same too.

The market for relationship advisors is really crowded, so you have to be different to stand out - that's all he's doing.

He will appeal to Incels and other low esteem men who blame women for their problems, but fail to look inwards first. Which is exactly why Andrew Tate gets traction.

This whole concept is back to front in my experience, as soon as you start to blame someone else (women per se in this instance), you are effectively handing over power to them (women) and the only possible outcome is that you end up becoming a victim.


Offline akauya

I was thinking the same too.

The market for relationship advisors is really crowded, so you have to be different to stand out - that's all he's doing.

He will appeal to Incels and other low esteem men who blame women for their problems, but fail to look inwards first. Which is exactly why Andrew Tate gets traction.

This whole concept is back to front in my experience, as soon as you start to blame someone else (women per se in this instance), you are effectively handing over power to them (women) and the only possible outcome is that you end up becoming a victim.

Exactly, they become wrapped in their own world and the whole thing becomes a self-imposed (as opposed to self-fulfilling) prophecy.

Online Southernbloke

Very sorry to hear this OP . In my experience over 30 years punting I have met several ladies who I could have got closer to.
I always have done the same thing if I don’t hear from them for a while I just send them a text saying “ I haven’t heard from you for a while, I hope you’re ok and I don’t want to bother you so if you want to get in touch you have my number “ signed my name
All but 1 lady I have never heard from again a lot can be said during a punt and not just by punter’s, it’s sometime the case that the lady has had a good time and says a bit more than she means and when the cold light of day dawns she is a bit embarrassed and cuts communication.
I have read most of the comments on here ( I can’t comment on the state of his marriage) but generally the advice is good, don’t let it paralyse your life and find someone else who you can have fun with.
Just my thoughts OP and I wish you luck

Offline elnukky

I was thinking the same too.

The market for relationship advisors is really crowded, so you have to be different to stand out - that's all he's doing.

He will appeal to Incels and other low esteem men who blame women for their problems, but fail to look inwards first. Which is exactly why Andrew Tate gets traction.

This whole concept is back to front in my experience, as soon as you start to blame someone else (women per se in this instance), you are effectively handing over power to them (women) and the only possible outcome is that you end up becoming a victim.

Is that not why the main message of these 'red pill' influencers is for men to put down the video games, get in the gym, and improve yourself?

Offline PilotMan

Is that not why the main message of these 'red pill' influencers is for men to put down the video games, get in the gym, and improve yourself?

"Looking inwards" is about improving yourself in your thinking and attitude, that comes way before any facile improvements.

Offline elnukky

"Looking inwards" is about improving yourself in your thinking and attitude, that comes way before any facile improvements.

Putting down the video games, fixing your health and wellness, progressing your career actually requires you to change you attitude and thinking patterns. I'm not sure what you disagree with.

Offline akauya

Is that not why the main message of these 'red pill' influencers is for men to put down the video games, get in the gym, and improve yourself?

I think you are focusing on only one aspect of the "red pill" influencers.

On the Tate thread I wrote:


Jordan Peterson is the perfect example of a ‘masculinity guru’ who rose to prominence by advising young men to do things that their father (or male role model) arguably should have advised them to do when they were younger (e.g. do exercise, eat healthily, educate yourself, etc.) but Jordan mixed his ‘advice’ with his own warped vision of life and relationships with women; all enveloped in faux-academic language which gave the impression that he knows what he’s talking about.


A lot of their supporters tend to ignore the misogyny of these influencers disguised in a respectable and sensible advice for men. There is no denying that advising young men to drop video games, eat healthily, do exercise, etc. is very good advice - everyone should do that, not just men. The problem is when the influencers add their own warped ideas about what women are "really like."

Basically what their message is saying is women are cold hearted bitches who will drop you in a heartbeat unless you are an alpha male.

Jordan Peterson gives that message in an academic language, Andrew Tate in crude language, the guy in the video above does it in more sedate language. But the message is the same. Another message that come through from these guys is that women should be at the service of men.

Any man who has had one or more meaningful relationships with women will know that's total bs, but for young impressionable men and especially teenagers finding out their way in life and male/female relationships that message is giving them a grim view of women and what to expect from them. If they ever have a failed relationship or failed to get into any relationships it will always be the woman's fault because women are cold hearted bitches who will move on to another better prospect.

Now, are there women like that? Of course there are, but to lump all women like that is ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as when extreme feminists lump all men as being evil bastards. All forms of extremism are wrong.

Relationships are more complicated than "me, man, strong provider; you woman, weak, kitchen". Successful relationships thrive on compromise, dialogue and when male/female differences complement each other rather than one imposing over the other.


Offline elnukky

Ah yes, any analysis of female behaviour for dissemination to young men in particular is seen as apocryphal and labeled misogynistic.

I think you are strawmaning their arguments. Women being 'cold hearted bitches' is what you have interpreted from whichever clips you have seen.

From what I have seen, they present the biological and evolutionary psychological rationale behind the mating strategies of both sexes, at a population level. This means that they are generalising. In general, women have ovaries and a cervix, but there some who do not. Do these exceptions negate the general rule that a woman will have ovaries and a cervix?
Citing exceptions does little to advance the conversation.

We don't shy away from exposing teenage girls to the reality of male nature, so why wouldn't we introduce teenage boys to the reality of female nature?

Online Southernbloke

None of my business but hasn’t this thread gotten away from the original post

Offline PilotMan

"Looking inwards" is about improving yourself in your thinking and attitude, that comes way before any facile improvements.

Putting down the video games, fixing your health and wellness, progressing your career actually requires you to change you attitude and thinking patterns. I'm not sure what you disagree with.

Where did I disagree with that?

Read what you're writing, you are actually agreeing with me. Before every action comes the thought, no action is accomplished without first having a thought. You can't go to the gym without first thinking and reasoning WHY you want to go to the gym and that you need to change yourself.




“Watch your thoughts, they become your words; watch your words, they become your actions; watch your actions, they become your habits; watch your habits, they become your character; watch your character, it becomes your destiny.”

― Lao Tzu

Offline elnukky

Where did I disagree with that?

Read what you're writing, you are actually agreeing with me. Before every action comes the thought, no action is accomplished without first having a thought. You can't go to the gym without first thinking and reasoning WHY you want to go to the gym and that you need to change yourself.




“Watch your thoughts, they become your words; watch your words, they become your actions; watch your actions, they become your habits; watch your habits, they become your character; watch your character, it becomes your destiny.”

― Lao Tzu

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant when you called them facile improvements.

Offline PilotMan

Maybe I misunderstood what you meant when you called them facile improvements.

No worries,

I meant superficial, on the surface, as opposed to cerebral improvements  :rolleyes:


« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 06:03:21 pm by PilotMan »

Offline elnukky

No worries,

I meant superficial, on the surface, as opposed to cerebral improvements  :rolleyes:

Yeah, that's what I thought you meant.

Offline estats

Putting down the video games, fixing your health and wellness, progressing your career actually requires you to change you attitude and thinking patterns. I'm not sure what you disagree with.

Some of the most successful people in the world are "geeks" or IT people, and probably pretty unhealthy, though?

I don't see Elon Musk changing his thinking patterns and attitude much? You could even argue most successful entrepreneurs are exactly that because they are unconventional thinkers.

A lot of qualities in the financial world I see from successful people are exactly because they are contrarian thinkers and have an ability to think outside a herd mentality.

I don't know or get into all these social influencers, but you can make a coherent argument that they exist exactly because we have created a society on following the crowd and what "success" or otherwise should be, rather than letting individuals find their own success for them without them having to feel pressure to follow the crowd and have x,y or z lifestyle to be classed a "success".

Online alabama1

Some of the most successful people in the world are "geeks" or IT people, and probably pretty unhealthy, though?

I don't see Elon Musk changing his thinking patterns and attitude much? You could even argue most successful entrepreneurs are exactly that because they are unconventional thinkers.

A lot of qualities in the financial world I see from successful people are exactly because they are contrarian thinkers and have an ability to think outside a herd mentality.

I don't know or get into all these social influencers, but you can make a coherent argument that they exist exactly because we have created a society on following the crowd and what "success" or otherwise should be, rather than letting individuals find their own success for them without them having to feel pressure to follow the crowd and have x,y or z lifestyle to be classed a "success".
In a nutshell.  :thumbsup:

Offline Munter84

A lot of qualities in the financial world I see from successful people are exactly because they are contrarian thinkers and have an ability to think outside a herd mentality.

This is basically the Sigma Male vs Alpha Male distinction, right? Mavericks who subvert or flat out ignore social conventions to carve out their own niche, rather than the traditional route to success achieved by playing the game by the established rules.

That's probably definitely an oversimplification, but as shorthand for a complex social theory it's acceptable.

Offline PilotMan

to be classed a "success".

Everyone will have their own definition of what success is, most of the recent posts in this thread appear to focus on financial success.

What about relationship success, how do these Mavericks, Sigma / Alpha males fare in this department?

« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 12:46:10 pm by PilotMan »

Offline Steely Dan

Saying that some Mavericks are winners does not mean that it is the right approach.  My guess: 99.9% of unconventional thinkers are low income losers.  Lots of rich doctors, lawyers and business leaders are conventional thinkers.