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Author Topic: HadleyAnother rant Freeman's piece in the Sunday Times 21st April Page 20  (Read 1653 times)

Offline unclepokey

Another rant about the sex trade but to me actually I felt it more of a rant about the euphemisms we all use to describe prostitutes and prostitution.
Of course the lady would have all us punters doing time but that just isn't going to happen.

In fact the police in my area have earned respect from me for getting gangs, bringing Thai women in for sex work, locked up, this clearly where girls were acting against their will, and not seeing all the cash in question.

The two women I meet on Tuesday next with a friend for a foursome are friends and me and my mate, clients. As far as I know unenforceable agreements are not forbidden and the matter is in any event not illegal.






Online daviemac

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Not sure what you mean but 2 or more escorts working from the same place makes it a brothel therefore illegal, whether or not the police would enforce it or the CPS would sanction a prosecution is another matter entirely.

Online scutty brown

The article is behind a paywall and not bypassable by the usual means, so not a lot anyone can say about it

Offline Steely Dan

Let’s stop pretending that paying for sex is anything but abuse
It’s revolting to see men casually boast about how they treat prostitutes — they should be shamed and jailed
Hadley Freeman
Sunday April 21 2024, 12.01am, The Sunday Times

Stangely, the sex-work-is-work crowd has been very quiet since The Spectator published a column last week by its massage parlour correspondent and occasional theatre critic, Lloyd Evans, which provides a very different perspective on prostitution. In this, his — by my count — second dispatch this year from a massage parlour, Evans, presumably typing with one hand, describes a recent trip to Cambridge to attend a lecture where he was so turned on by the “beautiful historian” giving the talk that he had no choice but to find a prostitute afterwards.

Perhaps you think I’m exaggerating. In fact, I’m playing it down. I haven’t mentioned, for instance, that Evans refuses to pay the prostitute the price she asks because it is “the same as the cost of my overnight hotel”, and clearly a woman’s body is worth less than a night in a Premier Inn. So he bargains her down by £20. After what he describes as their “brisk workout”, he says they are “like a long-married couple observing the conventions of mutual respect and co-operation”. Mmmm, yes. Albeit a mutually respectful couple in which the husband has to ask the woman to spell her name so he can transfer the money to her — “gallantly” he decides to pay her the full amount, which makes him feel “heroic and magnificent” — and one who knows the woman is speaking “insincerely” when she says she hopes to see him again. But “I meant it”, Evans writes.

I used to wonder what men thought when they bought sex. Did they convince themselves that the prostitute was enjoying it? Did they get off on the knowledge that she, or he, clearly wasn’t? But that question is naive: the men don’t think about the prostitute at all. Evans doesn’t care that she doesn’t want to see him again, or whether she might have been trafficked, any more than he cares that the prostitute has no desire for him to stick his penis inside her. But he does it anyway. This is true of all men who buy sex, and it’s why I think they are no better than rapists.

Am I being too blunt? Well, maybe more bluntness is needed instead of the euphemisms too many have used for too long in the deluded belief they accord dignity to prostitutes, when all they actually do is give cover to the men who abuse them. It’s because people aren’t honest about how degrading and — most of all — dangerous prostitution actually is that we get situations like what happened in 2021, when, in response to an “emerging trend” of students selling their bodies for sex, Durham University offered sex work training to “ensure students can be safe and make informed choices”.

And who could blame those students for seeing prostitution as a great little moneyspinner on the side? After all, in British theatres there are at present not one but two musicals that present prostitution as a great career path for women: Pretty Woman, the ultimate prostitution PR story, and Moulin Rouge!, in which the prostitute, Satine, dies (spoiler!) but at least she finds true love on the way.

When The Guardian reviewed Moulin Rouge! in 2022, the reviewer tutted at the show’s “sour portrayal of Satine’s life as a sex worker”, noting that she seemed full of “shame and self-disdain” for her work. “For an establishment that exudes sexual freedom, this seems strangely uptight,” the reviewer wrote. Yes, how uptight of that consumptive woman working as a sex slave in a cabaret brothel to not revel in her sexual freedom! At least Les Misérables down the road has the courage to tell the truth about prostitution through the character of Fantine, who sells her hair, then her teeth, then her body, and then dies. But come on, Fantine, enjoy your sexual freedom!

People used to call me a “Swerf” for saying things like this, which stands for sex-worker-exclusionary radical feminist. But I feel only compassion for prostitutes. It’s the men who abuse them that, I absolutely believe, should be publicly shamed and imprisoned.

And to all the people out there still bleating that sex work is empowering, I presume you’ll be encouraging your daughters to pursue that career path — arguing with dirty old sociopaths over the price of a blow job. Sex work is work!

Online scutty brown

So just another feminist diatribe

Online hendrix

She's always been an idiot, which is a well paid gig nowadays.

Offline JontyR

Ugh. What a contrived piece.

She is, of course, entitled to her view. But to seemingly start as she does...just how many sex work advocates are going to be reading the Spectator?

I don't think feminism has anything to do with this rant. It's more a return to puritanical moralism.

Offline Steely Dan

The 'what if it was your daughter' argument is so unhelpful.  Firstly it is reverse patronising or something - implies that men need to be boss of their daughter, and daughter is too weak to take care of herself.  Really?  You didn't say what if it were my son.

Also she makes this point is binary.  Escort or not.  Like or hate. But the reality is, I don't want her (or a son) to flip burgers.  Or be a drug pusher. Or an internet fraudster.  Or be unemployed and live on the street.  But if she is going to have sex with men a lot (which is cringe for a dad, but there we are) I'd rather that she screen men on AW and use a condom and get paid for it, then to do it for free with no condom with Jack-the-lad she met down the pub.

So I want the best for a daughter (or a son).  And perhaps being an escort for a while is not the best.  But it is far from the worst.  And anyway, it is her life, not mine.  So Hadley, piss off with your crap debating trick of turning a sliding scale argument into a binary choice.  Anyone who did debating in school can see you are messing with us.

Online MissWolf

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I would quite like to slap her  :dash:

Online stampjones

There are lots of jobs I wouldnt want nor advise my daughter to do but so what. I wouldnt want her to join the army but that doesnt mean I dont think the army is a valid and necessary career or that I wouldn't support her choice. Such a lazy fucking argument. Also extending one crap journalist (probably made up) experience into “men” is so weak its pathetic. She kind of tries to make herself out to be the tough rebel with the swerf term but she just sounds like a brainless twat trying to generate some clicks

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Offline Strawberry

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Absolutely zero knowledge of those punters who do have great concerns, their worst nightmare is that the women is trafficked. Talking to punters, clients over the years many have told me it's a huge leap to pay for sex. This doesn't mean there aren't punters who couldn't care less, but this article shows how little the author wants to know or portray. A piece with an agenda.

Offline PLeisure

She's always been an idiot, which is a well paid gig nowadays.
True. I knew her when she was Fashion Editor at the Guardian thinking that her Oxbridge degree somehow gave her an advantage. Came across as a plonker then; not a lot has changed

Offline leighdelamere

We can't be surprised that most women always have and always will be fearful and disgusted by women who sell sexual services, as it weakens the power they have to attract and keep a partner.

Offline Strawberry

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We can't be surprised that most women always have and always will be fearful and disgusted by women who sell sexual services, as it weakens the power they have to attract and keep a partner.

Sometimes (probably often) women have been brought up with particular views on their own body and sex, some of this is to protect girls from abuse eg strangers touching your body, or having access to your body is wrong, if anyone touches you you must report it. Also body image, how a woman feels about her body. Even grown adults, including punters refer to 'down there' with a tinge of embarrassment, some posts on this forum indicate stigma and feelings of shame, embarrassment attached to attending a GUM clinic. Having multiple sexual partners particularly casual is wrongly or rightly considered unacceptable by many.

Offline bops909

She's always been an idiot, which is a well paid gig nowadays.

Well put  :hi: Sadly very true...

Offline MrMohican

Bit rich for a former 'fashion editor' to be talking about how awful men are for exploiting women... what the fuck does she think the whole fashion industry does?

Online Charliehutton

Imprisoning people for doing something of which you disapprove, even though perfectly legal, is a novel idea. In similar vein, might I suggest we do the same with people who turn left at roundabouts without indicating?

Offline mistertoad

For those women who choose to be in this industry, would they be much more 'empowered' (god I hate that word) by doing some crappy minimum-wage job dealing with arsehole members of the public all day instead?

Offline jseop109

I don't think feminism has anything to do with this rant. It's more a return to puritanical moralism.

Yes quite. It reminds me of the debate in the 1960s about whether to legalise male homosexual activity.

Those against legalisation tended to be motivated by personal dislike of the idea, or moral disapproval (sometimes quoting from the Bible).

The idea that prevailed in the end - correctly - was that sexual activity between consenting adults was a matter for them and no one else.
(Obviously in the case of prostitution this excludes the under-aged and anyone being forced against their will.)

You can disapprove all you want, think it's disgusting, immoral, against your religion etc etc, but at the end of the day it's none of your business, none of my business, none of Hadley Freeman's business, and none of the state's business.

Offline midspunter

The Spectator piece is gob-smackingly awful, to be fair. Lloyd Evans appears to be one of those punters who believes he is doing the woman a favour.

Offline unclepokey

Not sure what you mean but 2 or more escorts working from the same place makes it a brothel therefore illegal, whether or not the police would enforce it or the CPS would sanction a prosecution is another matter entirely.

You are right on both fronts Daviemac, The second point is indeed something to be careful of. Generally I understand that PC Plod will only act if neighbours are inconvenienced and complain, or if the brothel owners are believed to be putting under duress the work of unwilling individuals, in which case the issue is not so much about brothels but slavery etc etc.

Fortunately me and my friend would never give rise to a complaint and neither would the girls do other but arrive and depart in modest attire with happy faces, a testament to our generosity.

Uncle Pokey
« Last Edit: April 22, 2024, 04:11:57 pm by unclepokey »

Offline Itsnotshy

We can't be surprised that most women always have and always will be fearful and disgusted by women who sell sexual services, as it weakens the power they have to attract and keep a partner.
Indeed, explains the need to act as sexual gatekeepers. Who is worthy of sex and who is not, as well as the 'price' that must be paid.

Offline Itsnotshy

Yes quite. It reminds me of the debate in the 1960s about whether to legalise male homosexual activity.

Those against legalisation tended to be motivated by personal dislike of the idea, or moral disapproval (sometimes quoting from the Bible).

The idea that prevailed in the end - correctly - was that sexual activity between consenting adults was a matter for them and no one else.
(Obviously in the case of prostitution this excludes the under-aged and anyone being forced against their will.)

You can disapprove all you want, think it's disgusting, immoral, against your religion etc etc, but at the end of the day it's none of your business, none of my business, none of Hadley Freeman's business, and none of the state's business.
I agree, but at the end of the day the State decides what is it's business and what is not. Logic doesn't necessarily come into it.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2024, 12:08:22 pm by Itsnotshy »

Offline akauya

She's always been an idiot, which is a well paid gig nowadays.

True that. She's a ghastly individual. She always came across as way up herself in her old columns in the Graundian.