BBC 1 & BBC 2

[NIK]

Just finished reading a book about the history of music television. It said when TOTP was shuffled from BBC1 to BBC2 it sounded the death knell for the long running programme. I notice Pointless has currently been moved to 2 to make way for the government’s daily blather on 1.  Conversely, when a programme becomes popular on BBC 2 it can get promoted to BBC 1, Line of Duty being a prime example.

Now what I don’t get about this marginalisation of BBC 2 is are there millions of people incapable of switching over to BBC 2?  It isn’t as if you need the Internet or anything.

[winkywanky]

Just finished reading a book about the history of music television. It said when TOTP was shuffled from BBC1 to BBC2 it sounded the death knell for the long running programme. I notice Pointless has currently been moved to 2 to make way for the government’s daily blather on 1.  Conversely, when a programme becomes popular on BBC 2 it can get promoted to BBC 1, Line of Duty being a prime example.

Now what I don’t get about this marginalisation of BBC 2 is are there millions of people incapable of switching over to BBC 2?  It isn’t as if you need the Internet or anything.

It's simply a case of BBC1 being the 'flagship' BBC channel. Same as ITV1, 2, 3, 4 etc, or even Sky (although some channels do tend to specialise, BBC4 for music docs etc, ITV4 for Sport).

They also realise the reality of the average household having a small amount of inertia before moving to other channels, even though hopping across requires nothing more than a digit on a remote control.

Re: TOTP, the viewership was presumably heading downwards with the charts becoming less and less meaningful, so they moved the show to BBC2. If you were still a fan then you could move across with it.

The other side of the coin is that new shows will often get an airing on BBC2, and if they become popular they can get moved across to BBC1 where they're more likely to get watched.

It's not about marginalisation, it's about the demographics of TV viewing, if you will.

[NIK]

I know all this, but moving programmes to 2 implies some people are too thick to turn over. If I want to watch a programme I don't care what channel it's on.

[David1970]

Could it be that the BBC have a pecking order based on numbers of viewers.
BBC 1 then 2, then 4 and last 3 ( internet only)
They may have for some reason decided that the current pandemic is more important than you watching Pointless?

[NIK]

Could it be that the BBC have a pecking order based on numbers of viewers.
BBC 1 then 2, then 4 and last 3 ( internet only)
They may have for some reason decided that the current pandemic is more important than you watching Pointless?

Ironically, I don't watch Pointless. I find it irritating. It was just an observation.

[winkywanky]

I know all this, but moving programmes to 2 implies some people are too thick to turn over. If I want to watch a programme I don't care what channel it's on.

Well maybe they are, hence my earlier comments.

All broadcasters have a very good idea of whether someone will watch a programme, based on which of their channels it's on. It's that simple.

Viewing figures used to come from RAJAR (maybe some still do), but if you have a digital box it's likely that they'll get the information that way. All data is anonymous of course.

[David1970]

Ironically, I don't watch Pointless. I find it irritating. It was just an observation.

So a Pointless thread LOL

[tynetunnel]

I think this actually is a historic issue from the inception of BBC2.  Back in the black and white days in the 1960’s tv in the UK was broadcast on VHF bands I and III using 405 lines. These transmitters had a very large transmission area and so only a handful were required to broadcast to the whole UK. This was true for both BBC Television and Independent Television, each with one channel.

It became apparent that the future of broadcasting in the UK would necessitate a transition to narrower UHF wavelengths, which would give a better quality picture, and permit more channels to be broadcast. The BBC and ITV channels were already making plans to start dual broadcasting on the old VHF and the new UHF. At this time BBC2 was born, and it was decided to launch on UHF wavelengths only (625 lines) since these were the future of UK broadcasting, indeed lasting us up until the inception of digital television in the 2000’s.

For a time dual frequency TVs were available. These were expensive and unreliable. Older readers may recall the newest models in the 1970’s had ‘push button’ tuning instead of a rotary tuning dial, and these were labelled BBC1, BBC2, ITA1 (or ITV1) and ITA2 (or ITV2). The ITV2 commercial service never materialised, and was eventually launched by the government as Channel 4 in 1982.

UHF transmission required many more transmitters and relays, since it has a much smaller transmission area. This made matching the coverage area for the old VHF transmitters a lengthy and costly process, which took almost 20 years to complete. The final switchover from VHF (405) to UHF (625) happened in 1984 and early in 1985 the old 405 system was switched off. Those frequencies today are used for DAB radio transmissions.

The upshot of all this was that until 1984, not all of the UK could receive UHF transmissions, and therefore BBC2. So naturally if you had a more niche programme, it would perhaps be relegated to ‘2’ where not everyone would receive it, but many might not be bothered. Conversely programmes of national importance, and mainstream programmes would be broadcast on ‘1’ so that everyone could watch, whether they were watching on UHF (625) or VHF (405)

This is why programmes which became more popular than envisaged would transition from ‘2’ to ‘1’ and conversely programmes where audiences were perhaps declining would be parked on ‘2’ before eventually being axed entirely.

Which all serves to explain why BBC1 was and is the flagship channel


External Link/Members Only

[mr.bluesky]

Don't know if anybody watched the excellent documentary on George Best on bbc4 a few nights ago. Should have been shown on bbc1 or bbc2 imo. There was a man who had the world at his feet but wasted his god given talent by pissing it up the wall. A man who women flocked around like flies around a cow pat. Most of them he probably shagged. There's a goal he scored when playing in th MLS for Fort Lauderdale where he dribbled past about 6 players in the penalty box before scoring. What a player ,what a sad waste of talent.

[winkywanky]

Yeah I saw that, very sad.

No one could do anything for him, he was set to self-destruct. Seemed a genuinely nice guy, just a completely addictive personality, with the drink as well as the women.

All we are left with is his sheer magic in the various recordings.

Possibly on a slightly lesser level on the footballing genius scale, Paul Gascoigne. Similar type of character though, just not quite as pretty as Best was.

[Strawberry]

I know all this, but moving programmes to 2 implies some people are too thick to turn over. If I want to watch a programme I don't care what channel it's on.

Am I correct in remembering Top Gear was usually on BBC 2, but then again it was a 'proper' car show back then.

[Matrix]

HIGNFY was good when it was on 2.  Been piss for years now.

[winkywanky]

Am I correct in remembering Top Gear was usually on BBC 2, but then again it was a 'proper' car show back then.

Also it was niche, BBC1 tends to be broadbased 'family' viewing.

[tesla]

Am I correct in remembering Top Gear was usually on BBC 2, but then again it was a 'proper' car show back then.

is this when it was William Wollard and others

[Goldfinch]

Am I correct in remembering Top Gear was usually on BBC 2, but then again it was a 'proper' car show back then.

Moving to BBC1 later in the year,after 43 years on BBC2:

External Link/Members Only

[mr.bluesky]

Am I correct in remembering Top Gear was usually on BBC 2, but then again it was a 'proper' car show back then.

Yes on bbc2 but repeated a million times on the Dave channel.  Word has it that it's going to be moved to bbc1

[threechilliman]

is this when it was William Wollard and others

Correct and they used to review oil and spark plugs to see which was best.

[tynetunnel]

Yes on bbc2 but repeated a million times on the Dave channel.  Word has it that it's going to be moved to bbc1

Not least, such a word was from our friend Goldfinch, immediately above your own post. Perhaps, bearing in mind who posted it, not so much a word, as a tweet! 

[Goldfinch]

Not least, such a word was from our friend Goldfinch, immediately above your own post. Perhaps, bearing in mind who posted it, not so much a word, as a tweet! 

 

[King Nuts]

I think this actually is a historic issue from the inception of BBC2.  Back in the black and white days in the 1960’s tv in the UK was broadcast on VHF bands I and III using 405 lines. These transmitters had a very large transmission area and so only a handful were required to broadcast to the whole UK. This was true for both BBC Television and Independent Television, each with one channel.

It became apparent that the future of broadcasting in the UK would necessitate a transition to narrower UHF wavelengths, which would give a better quality picture, and permit more channels to be broadcast. The BBC and ITV channels were already making plans to start dual broadcasting on the old VHF and the new UHF. At this time BBC2 was born, and it was decided to launch on UHF wavelengths only (625 lines) since these were the future of UK broadcasting, indeed lasting us up until the inception of digital television in the 2000’s.

For a time dual frequency TVs were available. These were expensive and unreliable. Older readers may recall the newest models in the 1970’s had ‘push button’ tuning instead of a rotary tuning dial, and these were labelled BBC1, BBC2, ITA1 (or ITV1) and ITA2 (or ITV2). The ITV2 commercial service never materialised, and was eventually launched by the government as Channel 4 in 1982.

UHF transmission required many more transmitters and relays, since it has a much smaller transmission area. This made matching the coverage area for the old VHF transmitters a lengthy and costly process, which took almost 20 years to complete. The final switchover from VHF (405) to UHF (625) happened in 1984 and early in 1985 the old 405 system was switched off. Those frequencies today are used for DAB radio transmissions.

The upshot of all this was that until 1984, not all of the UK could receive UHF transmissions, and therefore BBC2. So naturally if you had a more niche programme, it would perhaps be relegated to ‘2’ where not everyone would receive it, but many might not be bothered. Conversely programmes of national importance, and mainstream programmes would be broadcast on ‘1’ so that everyone could watch, whether they were watching on UHF (625) or VHF (405)

This is why programmes which became more popular than envisaged would transition from ‘2’ to ‘1’ and conversely programmes where audiences were perhaps declining would be parked on ‘2’ before eventually being axed entirely.

Which all serves to explain why BBC1 was and is the flagship channel


External Link/Members Only

Thanks. Interesting bit of history, which I was vaguely aware of but had long since forgotten.

[King Nuts]

Just finished reading a book about the history of music television. It said when TOTP was shuffled from BBC1 to BBC2 it sounded the death knell for the long running programme. I notice Pointless has currently been moved to 2 to make way for the government’s daily blather on 1.  Conversely, when a programme becomes popular on BBC 2 it can get promoted to BBC 1, Line of Duty being a prime example.

Now what I don’t get about this marginalisation of BBC 2 is are there millions of people incapable of switching over to BBC 2?  It isn’t as if you need the Internet or anything.

To an extent, the BBC suffers from a need to segment its audience. Same as many other organisations. It seeks to create separate, and almost parallel audiences for BBC1, 2, 3 and 4, and tries to identify and promote different qualities and attributes for each channel.

Ultimately, it's all about market share.

BMW, for instance, does the same thing. Which is why they make sports cars, family cars, estates, hatchbacks, SUVs and so on. It's all about reaching out to every conceivable sector of the market. Or audience, in the BBC's case.

[winkywanky]

And they absolutely have to gain enough audience reach to justify the licenec fee, otherwise they are dead in the water.

With modern viewing habits (more choice, on various devices, timeshifted) this becomes harder by the year.

[mr.bluesky]

Not least, such a word was from our friend Goldfinch, immediately above your own post. Perhaps, bearing in mind who posted it, not so much a word, as a tweet! 

He must have beat me to it by seconds.   
The early bird catches the worm 

[Goldfinch]

He must have beat me to it by seconds.   
The early bird catches the worm 

 

[puntingking]

Just finished reading a book about the history of music television. It said when TOTP was shuffled from BBC1 to BBC2 it sounded the death knell for the long running programme. I notice Pointless has currently been moved to 2 to make way for the government’s daily blather on 1.  Conversely, when a programme becomes popular on BBC 2 it can get promoted to BBC 1, Line of Duty being a prime example.

Now what I don’t get about this marginalisation of BBC 2 is are there millions of people incapable of switching over to BBC 2?  It isn’t as if you need the Internet or anything.

Totally agree with this point. What I don't get about the BBC is during the week from 9am till 1pm the bbc news team is broadcast on bbc2 and the BBC news channel at the same time. Who in their right mind goes "I'm going watch the BBC news now, but I'm going to watch bbc2 instead of the BBC news channel". Also most people are at home now during this lockdown so the BBC could put a couple of films on to entertain the viewers seeing as everything is shut and there is a limit about of things people can do at the moment. Also, during this lockdown period the last thing I want to do is watch the news when I know the only thing they are going to talk about the coronavirus. That just would not be good for my mental health. 

[tesla]

Who in their right mind goes "I'm going watch the BBC news now, but I'm going to watch bbc2 instead of the BBC news channel".

people who do not have access to the BBC news channel, not everyone has the latest technology

[puntingking]

Both the channels are available on Freeview. Freeview is the most accessible way to watch live TV. So if you pay TV licence you receive both channels.

[winkywanky]

I'm trying to think if it's possible some people would be able to access BBC2, but not BBC News channel. I can't think of one, I think every platform would have both?

It may be simply that they know from viewing figures, people who would otherwise not actually switch over to watch BBC News, nevertheless would quite happily watch it if it came up on BBC2, which they were already watching. That scenario sounds crazy but it's true.

It would almost certainly be true for older folks who get befuddled by the plethora of channels, even on Freeview and Freesat.

In the current climate this is probably a very good idea, they want everyone to keep abreast of the News for obvious reasons. But to be honest, I think it probably happens at other times too.

[tynetunnel]

At times the BBC News channel will have sign language, which it won’t on BBC2. Nobody however is watching on older technology where BBC News channel is unavailable. Even in areas where they receive ‘Freeview Lite’ rather than full Freeview, BBC News channel is available, although not necessarily in HD, whereas BBC2 will be available HD across all transmitters.

[winkywanky]

Good point about the sign language. Although I do wonder why they do this when the Live subtitles are pretty good these days?

I suppose if I were deaf I'd prefer watching a real person signing it, to just reading some words at the bottom of the screen.

In actual fact, as a hearing person (albeit gradually deteriorating), watching the signing person can be quite entertaining, some of the faces they pull to get the message across are fascinating  .

[catweazle]

I'm always cynically amused when ( say) a major sporting event overruns and they move EastEnders to BBC2 - and people complain. Just change channels, why can't you get your soap fix on BBC2?

[winkywanky]

It would be a bugger if they'd (been sad enough to  ) set their box to record it of course.

In actual fact, with the way modern technology is, I can't see why 'digital boxes' can't be made to actually record a programme, and not just a pre-ordained timeslot on a particular channel, which that programme is meant to be in.

Every programme could have its own digital code embedded within, why can't boxes use that? It would also get round stuff overrunning or being shifted in the schedule? 

[daviemac]

It would be a bugger if they'd (been sad enough to  ) set their box to record it of course.

In actual fact, with the way modern technology is, I can't see why 'digital boxes' can't be made to actually record a programme, and not just a pre-ordained timeslot on a particular channel, which that programme is meant to be in.

Every programme could have its own digital code embedded within, why can't boxes use that? It would also get round stuff overrunning or being shifted in the schedule? 

I've got my Virgin box set to record MOTD as a series, it doesn't matter what time it's on recording kicks in every week.   

[winkywanky]

I've got my Virgin box set to record MOTD as a series, it doesn't matter what time it's on recording kicks in every week.   

I have Virgin too, perhaps it works on just Serial Recordings?

Although if the footy overruns I don't think it would automatically include Extra Time for example, only if you'd set your box to record extra minutes on the end of any/every reording?

[Home Alone]

Good point about the sign language. Although I do wonder why they do this when the Live subtitles are pretty good these days?

I suppose if I were deaf I'd prefer watching a real person signing it, to just reading some words at the bottom of the screen.

In actual fact, as a hearing person (albeit gradually deteriorating), watching the signing person can be quite entertaining, some of the faces they pull to get the message across are fascinating  .

As with the signer interpreting that Scottish Doctor who was apologising for going to her second home. How she - the signer - kept a straight face, I'll never know!

[mr.bluesky]

I've got my Virgin box set to record MOTD as a series, it doesn't matter what time it's on recording kicks in every week.   

+1 have my sky box to record it as a series. Always watch the recorded version so I can fast forward through all the waffle and just watch the games without listening to all the so called experts

[daviemac]

I have Virgin too, perhaps it works on just Serial Recordings?

Although if the footy overruns I don't think it would automatically include Extra Time for example, only if you'd set your box to record extra minutes on the end of any/every reording?

I'm not sure to be honest, I just know when I go to record it it gives me the option to record a single episode or the whole series. If I do want to record a one off program I normally set it to record the same day it's broadcast so haven't come across any time changes.

[petermisc]

with the way modern technology is, I can't see why 'digital boxes' can't be made to actually record a programme, and not just a pre-ordained timeslot on a particular channel, which that programme is meant to be in.

That is how my Humax box works, if you simply select the programme from the TV guide rather than manually entering all the info.  It usually copes quite happily with things moving around the schedules, and starting early or late.  Don't think it copes with programmes shifting channel though (if it did, it would probably record both the ITV and +1 versions of the programme).  You can leave the programme info in its memory, and it will find it if the series restarts next year.  However, it does depend on the broadcasters entering the correct info.  ITV are bad at this on their +1 channels.  And C4 like putting "NEW" into the title when they start a series again, which means it effectively has a different title.

[winkywanky]

I was gonna say, I wonder whether there actually is information embedded within the digital stream of the programme, but it needs to be kept up to date by the broadcaster (which they sometimes fail to keep on top of)?

[puntingking]

I'm trying to think if it's possible some people would be able to access BBC2, but not BBC News channel. I can't think of one, I think every platform would have both?

It may be simply that they know from viewing figures, people who would otherwise not actually switch over to watch BBC News, nevertheless would quite happily watch it if it came up on BBC2, which they were already watching. That scenario sounds crazy but it's true.

It would almost certainly be true for older folks who get befuddled by the plethora of channels, even on Freeview and Freesat.

In the current climate this is probably a very good idea, they want everyone to keep abreast of the News for obvious reasons. But to be honest, I think it probably happens at other times too.

 

[TonyD]

why oh why in these boring times can they not show some decent content instaed of the same old shit churned out?

[petermisc]

I was gonna say, I wonder whether there actually is information embedded within the digital stream of the programme, but it needs to be kept up to date by the broadcaster (which they sometimes fail to keep on top of)?

Again, with a Humax freeview box, you can download the programmes onto a USB stick, and transfer them to a PC, where you can see what is embedded.  ITV are bad at setting the series flag on their +1 channels, so the box doesn't look for further programmes in the series - this is not the kind of thing that needs to be kept up-to-date, it is just sloppy programming.

[winkywanky]

Thanks for that detective work peter 

[petermisc]

why oh why in these boring times can they not show some decent content instaed of the same old shit churned out?

Because successive Tory governments have repeatedly cut the BBC's income. 

And that I suspect is the reason that the main BBC channels are showing the BBC News feed at certain times.  Even repeats cost money to show, in Equity fees, whereas showing the news feed I suspect costs nothing.  Bring back the test card and its easy-listening music!  And the old trade test films.

[winkywanky]

Potter's Wheel  .

And those lovely old BP films, the one with the vintage car being put back on the road...ahhh...

[Ali Katt]

HIGNFY was good when it was on 2.  Been piss for years now.

It was shit when Angus Deayton left. Clear jealousy on behalf of Merton and Hislop made him leave as much of the cocaine and hookers thing IMO. You could see it before that came out, jealous of his timing, jealous he was in One in the foot in the grave a massively successful sitcom and his work with Rowan Atkinson, the film Elizabeth, his voice over work. You have Hislop whose been editing Private Eye to a dwindling readership or Merton who did a really good sketch show on CH4 in the early 90s, bits of improv and not much else. I think all three are talented, but one had a bit more luck during the 90s.

[Doc Holliday]

It was shit when Angus Deayton left. Clear jealousy on behalf of Merton and Hislop made him leave as much of the cocaine and hookers thing IMO. You could see it before that came out, jealous of his timing, jealous he was in One in the foot in the grave a massively successful sitcom and his work with Rowan Atkinson, the film Elizabeth, his voice over work. You have Hislop whose been editing Private Eye to a dwindling readership or Merton who did a really good sketch show on CH4 in the early 90s, bits of improv and not much else. I think all three are talented, but one had a bit more luck during the 90s.

I would agree with that, although I wouldn't call it shit  The new episode on Friday via videolink and with no audience just didn't work and was painful to watch at times. Maybe better shelved for now until this over?

[Ali Katt]

I would agree with that, although I wouldn't call it shit  The new episode on Friday via videolink and with no audience just didn't work and was painful to watch at times. Maybe better shelved for now until this over?

I agree, they've done the same with other panel shows.

[cotton]

Thing i hate with HIGNFY is the overt liberal agenda , i mean the overt anti brexitism , the overt anti faraghism and the overt anti trumpism , ok its fine for anyone to be remain and democrat but i do get sick of the do gooder holier than thou hug an ethnic preachy mentality of these ivory tower panelists , its kindof like what Dominic Cummings said about the election result , it just shows how out of touch these london media luvies are out of touch with mainstrean uk opinion , they are like a sideshow that was mildly entertaining 15 years ago and its gone on far beyond its sell by date , the hole thing should be put out of its misery afaiac.

[winkywanky]

It was shit when Angus Deayton left. Clear jealousy on behalf of Merton and Hislop made him leave as much of the cocaine and hookers thing IMO. You could see it before that came out, jealous of his timing, jealous he was in One in the foot in the grave a massively successful sitcom and his work with Rowan Atkinson, the film Elizabeth, his voice over work. You have Hislop whose been editing Private Eye to a dwindling readership or Merton who did a really good sketch show on CH4 in the early 90s, bits of improv and not much else. I think all three are talented, but one had a bit more luck during the 90s.

I miss Deayton too, long gone now of course. It's gone frequently too PC and right on now, both with the hosts (including Jo Brand) and with some of the guests, who blatantly grind their axes in a teeth-edging way. I know comedy is in the eye of the beholder but some of the female comics they have on are clearly out of their depth with their one-dimensional 'comedy', and just not actually funny. Sometimes they'll actually give 'a little gender-political speech' and not even try to be funny at all. Can be the same with guys of course, and I think Nish Kimar fits that bill.

It's a satirical comedy show, and the power of satirical comedy is in actually being funny to get your point across.

Deayton could make exactly the same points just as strongly, but in a wry, subtle way which would have you laughing as well as possibly agreeing. I don't know what the hell he's doing now, making corporate videos or something?

Just in case I'm coming across as simply 'anti-PC', Andy Hamilton is bloody brilliant and totally justifies his regular spot with his scathing but funny input.