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Author Topic: Janice Turner of the Times – and Girls who Balk at Painful Demands  (Read 2182 times)

Offline Vice Admiral

Not for the first time, the Times columnist Janice Turner today weighs in on the subject of prostitution. 

I think her overall position in past articles can be fairly summarised as that prostitution should be banned because it invariably involves abuse, coercion or desperation. 

This is not a view that most men who have extensive experience of the oldest profession in the UK would share – although of course prostitution occasionally involves these things, just as the consumption of alcohol occasionally leads to violence.   

Today’s article is pasted below.  Of course few of us would be anything but appalled by the way aid workers, UN troops and others have exploited poor and vulnerable young women and girls in Third World countries.

However it is when Janice Turner homes in on Blighty that things get rather more controversial.

But research shows men who buy sex are more likely to rape: trading money for consent reduces empathy, makes a man believe only his pleasure counts and increases his likelihood of partner abuse.
Research shows this, does it?  What research?  It would be helpful if she provided a source.

Sarah Everard’s killer, Wayne Couzens, a prolific punter who paraded escorts to his police colleagues, tried to book a prostitute just after he’d disposed of Sarah’s body. Read any review on ‘punter’ websites where men rate women’s bodies, obedience and enthusiasm, marking them down if they balk at painful demands.

I have never seen a review on UKP where a punter has criticised a girl who “balked at painful demands” (!!!) – and indeed anyone who included anything like this in a UKP review would be drowned in hostile comments from other members, and probably be thrown off the site.

Vague, unsupported and unproven claims have no place in good journalism.

_________


Soldiers should not be buying sex anywhere
The MoD is right to ban troops from foreign brothels but using prostitutes at home or abroad is inherently abusive

For centuries brothels were part of military planning, prostitution seen as an auxiliary service, vital for the men’s morale. The French army had Bordels Militaires de Campagne, trailer trucks each containing ten women which followed battalions servicing, in order of rank, soldiers who’d line up with a ticket, a condom and a towel.

In France’s colonial campaigns these mobile units were staffed by young Algerian or Vietnamese women, sold by relatives into servitude. The Japanese imperial army rounded up “comfort women” in occupied Korea or China, local girls who believed they were to become nurses. Throughout the Second World War Germany had its official military brothels stocked with pretty Polish or Russian girls snatched off the street.

These women, who were brutalised, forced to have sex with 50 men a day, made pregnant and then ostracised by their families so they could never return home, are rarely mentioned in military histories. Their purpose was to keep the troops biddable. Besides, with a cadre of designated women to rape, it was hoped soldiers might leave civilians alone and not catch venereal disease.

The British Army approach was less formal: tolerate but don’t condone men who far from home might line up outside “red lamp” knocking shops in the Somme. Even in this decade, it turned a blind eye to hundreds of troops deployed to Kenya for hot weather training having sex with prostitutes through chain-link fences or taking a brace of girls off to £10-a-night hotels.

When Agnes Wanjiru, a hairdresser driven into sex work to feed her baby, was killed and stuffed into a septic tank, squaddies at a British base in Kenya covered up the death, then laughed about it on WhatsApp groups. The army washed its hands and the murder remains unsolved.

It took this scandal, brilliantly exposed by Sunday Times journalists, to bring the British military into the #MeToo era. The MoD has announced that from now on it will prohibit “all sexual activity which involves the abuse of power, including buying sex while abroad”.

This has been met with much derision: how can it be policed, why should “consensual” acts be subject to court martial, what about men’s sexual needs? But as the defence secretary, Ben Wallace, says: “Life has moved on, it is a different generation”.

Indeed it would be hypocritical for the government not to act. After Oxfam was involved in a series of sex abuse scandals following the 2010 Haitian earthquake, including trading sex for basic supplies and hiring locals for staff orgies, it was denied UK aid contracts. When further Oxfam scandals emerged in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) the ban remained. How can it be wrong for charity workers to exploit vulnerable women but fine for British soldiers?

The Oxfam scandal exposed the sexual impunity of staff at many NGOs operating in developing nations. There is something particularly grotesque about a western aid worker, high on his own virtue, bartering with a young mother after a natural disaster: sleep with me and here’s a box of baby milk. But is it any better if money is traded instead?

The United Nations classes such prostitution as exploitation. From Haiti to Sierra Leone, its peacekeeping forces have been implicated in sex scandals. In the 1990s blue helmets were found to frequent brothels in Bosnia and Kosovo staffed by trafficked women, and in Cambodia where girls were under age. Peacekeepers in the DRC were found to have bought sex with two eggs from their ration packs. In Liberia, a 2016 report found half of women in Monrovia had turned to prostitution, with 75 per cent of clients being peacekeepers. UN presence was debasing a whole community.

It is almost 20 years since the UN secretary-general Kofi Annan announced peacekeepers should be “discouraged” from engaging in sexual relations with locals they are supposed to be assisting, since there is an “inherently unequal power dynamic”. Not that Annan’s words stopped the abuse. But it is right that the British Army is now pledging the same.

Inherent in the tolerance of soldiers buying sex is the belief it prevents rape, as if prostitutes are a buffer zone, dehumanised to protect virtuous women. But research shows men who buy sex are more likely to rape: trading money for consent reduces empathy, makes a man believe only his pleasure counts and increases his likelihood of partner abuse.

Sarah Everard’s killer, Wayne Couzens, a prolific punter who paraded escorts to his police colleagues, tried to book a prostitute just after he’d disposed of Sarah’s body. Read any review on “punter” websites where men rate women’s bodies, obedience and enthusiasm, marking them down if they balk at painful demands.

The question is not why soldiers should be banned from foreign brothels, but why only abroad. What prostitution is not a “sexual activity that involves the abuse of power”? In Germany’s legalised super-brothels, women, many trafficked from Romania or Africa, must sleep with six men a night before they’ve even paid their brothel rent. It is not a “job like any other” if basic health and safety — from avoiding contact with bodily fluids, unwanted touching or even violence — cannot be enforced. The vast majority of prostitutes are not swinging Belle de Jours but were abused as children, lured in by pimp-boyfriends and muffle their pain with drugs or alcohol.

Ben Wallace is right: this is a new generation. It is time that the Nordic model, which decriminalises sex work but makes buying it a crime and has been adopted in France, Ireland and Sweden, is debated in parliament. No man should have impunity when buying a woman’s body, whether out on a stag night or serving his country.



« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 01:28:41 pm by Vice Admiral »

Offline Colston36

Not for the first time, the Times columnist Janice Turner today weighs in on the subject of prostitution. 

I think her overall position in past articles can be fairly summarised as that prostitution should be banned because it invariably involves abuse, coercion or desperation. 

This is not a view that most men who have extensive experience of the oldest profession in the UK would share – although of course prostitution occasionally involves these things, just as the consumption of alcohol occasionally leads to violence.   

Today’s article is pasted below.  Of course few of us would be anything but appalled by the way aid workers, UN troops and others have exploited poor and vulnerable young women and girls in Third World countries.

However it is when Janice Turner homes in on Blighty that things get rather more controversial.

But research shows men who buy sex are more likely to rape: trading money for consent reduces empathy, makes a man believe only his pleasure counts and increases his likelihood of partner abuse.
Research shows this, does it?  What research?  It would be helpful if she provided a source.

Sarah Everard’s killer, Wayne Couzens, a prolific punter who paraded escorts to his police colleagues, tried to book a prostitute just after he’d disposed of Sarah’s body. Read any review on ‘punter’ websites where men rate women’s bodies, obedience and enthusiasm, marking them down if they balk at painful demands.

I have never seen a review on UKP where a punter has criticised a girl who “balked at painful demands” (!!!) – and indeed anyone who included anything like this in a UKP review would be drowned in hostile comments from other members, and probably be thrown off the site.

Vague, unsupported and unproven claims have no place in good journalism.

_________


Soldiers should not be buying sex anywhere
The MoD is right to ban troops from foreign brothels but using prostitutes at home or abroad is inherently abusive

For centuries brothels were part of military planning, prostitution seen as an auxiliary service, vital for the men’s morale. The French army had Bordels Militaires de Campagne, trailer trucks each containing ten women which followed battalions servicing, in order of rank, soldiers who’d line up with a ticket, a condom and a towel.

In France’s colonial campaigns these mobile units were staffed by young Algerian or Vietnamese women, sold by relatives into servitude. The Japanese imperial army rounded up “comfort women” in occupied Korea or China, local girls who believed they were to become nurses. Throughout the Second World War Germany had its official military brothels stocked with pretty Polish or Russian girls snatched off the street.

These women, who were brutalised, forced to have sex with 50 men a day, made pregnant and then ostracised by their families so they could never return home, are rarely mentioned in military histories. Their purpose was to keep the troops biddable. Besides, with a cadre of designated women to rape, it was hoped soldiers might leave civilians alone and not catch venereal disease.

The British Army approach was less formal: tolerate but don’t condone men who far from home might line up outside “red lamp” knocking shops in the Somme. Even in this decade, it turned a blind eye to hundreds of troops deployed to Kenya for hot weather training having sex with prostitutes through chain-link fences or taking a brace of girls off to £10-a-night hotels.

When Agnes Wanjiru, a hairdresser driven into sex work to feed her baby, was killed and stuffed into a septic tank, squaddies at a British base in Kenya covered up the death, then laughed about it on WhatsApp groups. The army washed its hands and the murder remains unsolved.

It took this scandal, brilliantly exposed by Sunday Times journalists, to bring the British military into the #MeToo era. The MoD has announced that from now on it will prohibit “all sexual activity which involves the abuse of power, including buying sex while abroad”.

This has been met with much derision: how can it be policed, why should “consensual” acts be subject to court martial, what about men’s sexual needs? But as the defence secretary, Ben Wallace, says: “Life has moved on, it is a different generation”.

Indeed it would be hypocritical for the government not to act. After Oxfam was involved in a series of sex abuse scandals following the 2010 Haitian earthquake, including trading sex for basic supplies and hiring locals for staff orgies, it was denied UK aid contracts. When further Oxfam scandals emerged in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) the ban remained. How can it be wrong for charity workers to exploit vulnerable women but fine for British soldiers?

The Oxfam scandal exposed the sexual impunity of staff at many NGOs operating in developing nations. There is something particularly grotesque about a western aid worker, high on his own virtue, bartering with a young mother after a natural disaster: sleep with me and here’s a box of baby milk. But is it any better if money is traded instead?

The United Nations classes such prostitution as exploitation. From Haiti to Sierra Leone, its peacekeeping forces have been implicated in sex scandals. In the 1990s blue helmets were found to frequent brothels in Bosnia and Kosovo staffed by trafficked women, and in Cambodia where girls were under age. Peacekeepers in the DRC were found to have bought sex with two eggs from their ration packs. In Liberia, a 2016 report found half of women in Monrovia had turned to prostitution, with 75 per cent of clients being peacekeepers. UN presence was debasing a whole community.

It is almost 20 years since the UN secretary-general Kofi Annan announced peacekeepers should be “discouraged” from engaging in sexual relations with locals they are supposed to be assisting, since there is an “inherently unequal power dynamic”. Not that Annan’s words stopped the abuse. But it is right that the British Army is now pledging the same.

Inherent in the tolerance of soldiers buying sex is the belief it prevents rape, as if prostitutes are a buffer zone, dehumanised to protect virtuous women. But research shows men who buy sex are more likely to rape: trading money for consent reduces empathy, makes a man believe only his pleasure counts and increases his likelihood of partner abuse.

Sarah Everard’s killer, Wayne Couzens, a prolific punter who paraded escorts to his police colleagues, tried to book a prostitute just after he’d disposed of Sarah’s body. Read any review on “punter” websites where men rate women’s bodies, obedience and enthusiasm, marking them down if they balk at painful demands.

The question is not why soldiers should be banned from foreign brothels, but why only abroad. What prostitution is not a “sexual activity that involves the abuse of power”? In Germany’s legalised super-brothels, women, many trafficked from Romania or Africa, must sleep with six men a night before they’ve even paid their brothel rent. It is not a “job like any other” if basic health and safety — from avoiding contact with bodily fluids, unwanted touching or even violence — cannot be enforced. The vast majority of prostitutes are not swinging Belle de Jours but were abused as children, lured in by pimp-boyfriends and muffle their pain with drugs or alcohol.

Ben Wallace is right: this is a new generation. It is time that the Nordic model, which decriminalises sex work but makes buying it a crime and has been adopted in France, Ireland and Sweden, is debated in parliament. No man should have impunity when buying a woman’s body, whether out on a stag night or serving his country.

As usual the piece makes very good points - then jumps to conclusions those points don't fully support

Offline belamy85

A case of that old adage - don't let the facts stand in the way of a good story?

Offline Cee92

"Research shows", and that research is from where exactly?

Sounds like the makings of a shit university essay. Well done for stereotyping most of the male population Janice.
Looking forward to her next riveting article, suggesting why black men are more likely to be in gangs.


Offline Vice Admiral

In any case, those of us who pay for sex haven't got the time or energy to go around raping people.  We're over-committed already. 

Offline tynetunnel

“But research shows men who buy sex are more likely to rape”

She never stated her source for that fact. I’ve never been inclined to consider raping anyone, nor would I ever!

Offline Munter84

As usual, this brand of moralising, sex-worker-negative feminism does both men and women the disservice of assuming that a paid sexual encounter can't possibly be carried out in a safe, respectful and mature manner between two consenting adults. What happened to "her body, her choice"?

Offline RogerHealey

Possibly Janice and her main stream media chums might like to make themselves useful and cover the issue of the various peodophile rape gang networks operating in many urban centres across the country for decades and continue to do so. No accountability from local authorities, police and politicians. Swept under the carpet and no public enquiry because of the elephant in the room... the demographic of the perpetrators. An inconvenient truth. I doubt even George Orwell would've thought it could go this far.

Offline Home Alone

I read this article online on the "Fans' coach" to our away pre-season Friendly. You've all asked the questions that were going through my mind at the time, but obviously couldn't discuss with the bloke sitting next to me on the coach.

Some really sloppy journalism throughout the article; but it's odds on that Monday's Times won't print any Letters to the Editor giving the alternative view.

Offline bops909

. It is time that the Nordic model, which decriminalises sex work but makes buying it a crime and has been adopted in France, Ireland and Sweden, is debated in parliament. No man should have impunity when buying a woman’s body, whether out on a stag night or serving his country.

Must be helpful being married to the Executive Editor of the newspaper your columns are printed in.  :rolleyes: I'm not sure that first sentence would have made it past a sub-editor otherwise  :rolleyes:

She's a proponent of the Nordic Model - say no more.

She's expressing the radical feminist belief that "all prostitution is violence against women" which is a dangerous conflation of two things that are not the same, and ignores the experiences of sex workers. 

Maybe Janice should listen to some actual sex workers before she speaks again.
 
If anyone wants to follow this sort of debate on Twitter there are some thoughful accounts from actual SWs (at least so they say).

Here's a counter argument to Janice.

External Link/Members Only


Offline tynetunnel

Possibly Janice and her main stream media chums might like to make themselves useful and cover the issue of the various peodophile rape gang networks operating in many urban centres across the country for decades and continue to do so. No accountability from local authorities, police and politicians. Swept under the carpet and no public enquiry because of the elephant in the room... the demographic of the perpetrators. An inconvenient truth. I doubt even George Orwell would've thought it could go this far.

For balance, The Times’ Andrew Norfolk is the investigative journalist who broke the story of the Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal in 2011 and has won several awards including Journalist of the Year in 2014 for his work. His investigations were the trigger to several formal enquiries

External Link/Members Only

Offline bops909

For balance, The Times’ Andrew Norfolk is the investigative journalist who broke the story of the Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal in 2011 and has won several awards including Journalist of the Year in 2014 for his work. His investigations were the trigger to several formal enquiries

External Link/Members Only

Good point.  :hi:

Shows there's a world of difference between an opinionated columnist and an investigative journalist.

Offline Barclay Spank

Last year Libby Purves was in the Times saying the same thing. She didn't give a reference for what she said either. Here is what Purves wrote.

"Men who buy it, whether online or physically are significantly more likely than other men to rape or commit other violence against women."

I looked for this research and the nearest I came to it is research done by Melissa Farley in America. On the Nordic Model Now! site they say this.

"Studies of men who buy sex (punters) show that they are significantly more likely than other men to rape and engage in all forms of violence against women. A US study found that punters were nearly eight times more likely to rape than other men."

The US study is 'Comparing Sex Buyers With Men Who Do Not Buy Sex: New Data on Prostitution and Trafficking' by Melissa Farley and four other people that I have never heard of. Melissa Farley is known to be biased. See her Wikipedia page.

There's something a bit strange about this research. In the study men were asked outright if they had ever raped a woman. That was question 8 and 9 of the SES survey, one of a number of surveys the men in Farley's study answered. Yet we are not told what they answered. instead we are told about what men say they would do under specific circumstances, and a calculation of sexual aggressive behaviour in general. The sex buyer group had 'a mean of 1.59 types of sexually aggressive behavior'. Never mind about the mean, what answers did they give to questions 8 and 9?

This isn't the first time Farley has withheld information. Consider this from Ronald Weizer's article The Mythology of Prostitution: Advocacy Research and Public Policy

"In trying to make the case that indoor prostitution victimizes women to the same extent as street prostitution, Farley (2006) reported that a British study by Church et al. (2001) found that workers in indoor venues (private residences, saunas) reported more attempted rapes than street workers. In fact, the Church study reported the opposite: that 28% of street workers said they had ever experienced an attempted rape, compared with 17% of indoor workers. Moreover, Farley failed to mention that street prostitutes were 11 times more likely to have actually been raped: According to Church et al., 22% of the street sample compared with only 2% of the indoor sample had ever been raped while at work. This example is a clear case of both inverting and ignoring findings that contradict one's arguments."
Banned reason: Ignoring mod's warning regarding irrelevant and political posts.
Banned by: daviemac


Online JontyR

I'm not surprised that there is research that details such a claim.

I'd also doubt that such research would stand up to much scrutiny.

If you were surveyed and asked if you had ever raped, and if you had ever paid for sex I'm guessing that 100% would so no to both.

If you asked the same questions to some blokes who were already serving time for rape whether they had ever paid for it then you are much more likely to get a realistic response.

But does this mean that the assertion is true...or indeed that the correlation is also reflective of a causal link. No. Not at all.

Offline Barclay Spank

It looks as if The Times is going to get a reputation for itself for fake news. Both Libby Purves and Janice Turner have used false statistics. Janice Turner wrote "It is time that the Nordic model, which decriminalises sex work but makes buying it a crime and has been adopted in France, Ireland and Sweden, is debated in parliament."

She doesn't realise that it has already been debated in parliament. On 04 July 2018 there was the debate 'Commercial Sexual Exploitation'. Ian Paisley junior was in the chair. Many of you will remember his father who was a rabid Protestant politician in Northern Ireland. A couple of other Evangelicals spoke, Gavin Shuker and Fiona Bruce (not the TV presenter).

Sarah Champion has done some good in the past because she helped with the issue of child sexual exploitation in Rotherham where she was MP. However, what she said in the debate about the Nordic model is false. This is what she said.

"In Sweden, which was the first country to adopt an “end demand” approach back in 1999, anonymous surveys conducted in 1996 and 2008 revealed that the proportion of men in Sweden who reported paying for sex dropped from 13% to 8% in that period. The most recent study of prevalence rates found that 0.8% of men in Sweden had paid for sex in the previous 12 months, which is the smallest proportion recorded in two decades and the lowest in Europe."

What they do is cherry-pick from 2 different sets of data to make it look as if the Nordic model in Sweden has succeeded in reducing demand. The evidence though is that demand increased after the Nordic model was introduced in 1999 then decreased after the 2008 financial crisis. I could go into the details but that would be boring.

When Sarah Champion said that the 0.8% rate is the lowest in Europe that seems to be an outright lie. Sylvia Walby in her 2016 study said that, and she gave a reference for this to the 2015 Länsstyrelsen study. If you look in the Länsstyrelsen study though it does not say that. They seem to be very dependent on Sylvia Walby's study, but they can't be bothered to check the references. Also, she says that it is a prevalence rate. It isn't, it's an incidence rate. There's an important distinction between different types of rate.

Janice Turner ends her article by writing "No man should have impunity when buying a woman’s body, whether out on a stag night or serving his country". I have never bought a woman's body, I have bought a service.
Banned reason: Ignoring mod's warning regarding irrelevant and political posts.
Banned by: daviemac

Offline Home Alone

I read this article online on the "Fans' coach" to our away pre-season Friendly. You've all asked the questions that were going through my mind at the time, but obviously couldn't discuss with the bloke sitting next to me on the coach.

Some really sloppy journalism throughout the article; but it's odds on that Monday's Times won't print any Letters to the Editor giving the alternative view.

As I thought/felt sure . . .

Offline Handel2020

She doesn't mind soldiers being paid to risk life and limb though. Relative to that I would say an escort who chooses the job and gets paid well is in a better situation. Also, who said escorts want to avoid body fluids? I've met many who didn't mind.

Is a person making an irrational choice if they were abused as a kid and end up getting screwed over by working at an online retailer's warehouse where they might well be begrudged a toilet break? When and where does sexual abuse count and why don't these columnists care about a person's childhood and all its flaws when the person in question ends up working for a minimum wage?


Offline pbrown355

If I could earn £500+ per day working in the sex industry I would. I also believe most people would, male or female. It's way in excess of what most people can earn in other employment. If you are a minimum wage earner and can treble it, wouldn't you do it? For most people the answer again would be yes (IMHO)

Offline PumpDump

Research shows most journalists are very low paid and poorly educated. Why would anybody listen to what they have to say.

Offline PumpDump

“But research shows men who buy sex are more likely to rape”

She never stated her source for that fact. I’ve never been inclined to consider raping anyone, nor would I ever!

I'd say the opposite is true, it stops those inclined to rape from doing so because they have easy access to sex when they need it.

Offline PumpDump

If I could earn £500+ per day working in the sex industry I would. I also believe most people would, male or female. It's way in excess of what most people can earn in other employment. If you are a minimum wage earner and can treble it, wouldn't you do it? For most people the answer again would be yes (IMHO)

I put an ad up on AW before, nobody responded, I have a very dusty phone!

Offline PumpDump

Janice Turner ends her article by writing "No man should have impunity when buying a woman’s body, whether out on a stag night or serving his country". I have never bought a woman's body, I have bought a service.

What if you pay a woman to do your garden, or clean your house, isn't that buying her body also? What if she only cleans or does gardening because she is desperate for money? Does that mean I am taking advantage of her?

The problem with women like this author is they consider sex as something dirty, shameful and sinful. The other reason people like her are against paying for sex is it diminishes their control over men. Many women use sex, or refusing sex as a weapon to control men. If men can get sex easily elsewhere these type of women lose this control. I remember the days I used to desperately try to impress women in order to get in to their knickers. Not anymore, all I have to do is send a few texts or make a call and within 20 mins I can be balls deep.

Online webpunter

So much for the 'Nordic' model, as if it supposed to be better

External Link/Members Only

About 58% of men convicted in Sweden of rape and attempted rape over the past five years were born abroad, according to data from Swedish national TV

There'll no doubt be an awful lot of sweeping going on over in Sweden, as well as here

As the Govt will seek to minimize the backlash from their open immigration policy from 2015

Possibly Janice and her main stream media chums might like to make themselves useful and cover the issue of the various peodophile rape gang networks operating in many urban centres across the country for decades and continue to do so. No accountability from local authorities, police and politicians. Swept under the carpet and no public enquiry because of the elephant in the room... the demographic of the perpetrators. An inconvenient truth. I doubt even George Orwell would've thought it could go this far.

Offline Handel2020

The other reason people like her are against paying for sex is it diminishes their control over men.

This is bang on. I think they also like the idea of frustrating men who can't get sex in any other way as well. The idea sounds like an extremist one to me. The ones I've heard talking about this don't even make exceptions for disabled men who might have no other option. There is no position these feminists will accept apart from their own extreme view of the world.

Online webpunter

+1
Their attitude towards sex isnt a good start point
Hardly makes em likely to be any good at it
The feminazis banging on about men paying for sex often look like the back end of a bus
Even if they are remotely interested in sex they aint the best equipped
& as they dont enjoy it they take the attitude that why should men
As for women selling sex they cant stand them either
So they try & make them look like they are down-trodden & forced into it
They are a threat to them, typically looking much better than they are, are well practised & good at their chosen line of vocation

As you mention it is about control & these types of women hate it, those selling & those buying.  With a venom

Only a few brave women will comment about how far off the mark Janice Turner is
Makes them look like slappers
Social media fall out
And they've got better things to do
Like keeping fit, looking fab, enjoying life & sex [& accepting wolf whistles]

As for a bloke commenting this can be disastrous
The elephant in the room, the feminazis using sex as a weapon is best left alone

The problem with women like this author is they consider sex as something dirty, shameful and sinful. The other reason people like her are against paying for sex is it diminishes their control over men. Many women use sex, or refusing sex as a weapon to control men. If men can get sex easily elsewhere these type of women lose this control. I remember the days I used to desperately try to impress women in order to get in to their knickers. Not anymore, all I have to do is send a few texts or make a call and within 20 mins I can be balls deep.

Offline Barclay Spank

"The vast majority of prostitutes are not swinging Belle de Jours but were abused as children, lured in by pimp-boyfriends and muffle their pain with drugs or alcohol."

This is the most problematic opinion in her article. It isn't true. I think I know where this false belief comes from. I think she's been reading Louise Perry's new book The Case Against the Sexual Revolution.

In this book Perry quotes from Elizabeth Bernstein the American sociologist. I have come across Bernstein before, she has some very sensible things to say about sex work and trafficking. In these quotes Bernstein says that there is a continuum. At one end of the continuum there are well-paid sex workers such as escorts. At the other end of the continuum there are drug addicted street based sex workers. That is true.

Bernstein doesn't say though that there are only two categories of sex workers. Neither does she say that the drug addicts are in the majority. There are several categories of sex workers, with drug addicts being only about 15%. So it is completely wrong for Louise Perry and Julie Bindel to state that the high-paid escorts etc are unrepresentative of sex workers in general. Bindel calls them 'tourists' because the escorts haven't seen the reality of sex work. No category of sex worker is representative of the majority. It is Perry, Bindel and Turner who can't see the reality of sex work. You can't have sensible laws that help women if you fail to understand what the problem is.
Banned reason: Ignoring mod's warning regarding irrelevant and political posts.
Banned by: daviemac

Offline Vice Admiral

"The vast majority of prostitutes are not swinging Belle de Jours but were abused as children, lured in by pimp-boyfriends and muffle their pain with drugs or alcohol."

This is the most problematic opinion in her article. It isn't true. I think I know where this false belief comes from. I think she's been reading Louise Perry's new book The Case Against the Sexual Revolution.

In this book Perry quotes from Elizabeth Bernstein the American sociologist. I have come across Bernstein before, she has some very sensible things to say about sex work and trafficking. In these quotes Bernstein says that there is a continuum. At one end of the continuum there are well-paid sex workers such as escorts. At the other end of the continuum there are drug addicted street based sex workers. That is true.

Bernstein doesn't say though that there are only two categories of sex workers. Neither does she say that the drug addicts are in the majority. There are several categories of sex workers, with drug addicts being only about 15%. So it is completely wrong for Louise Perry and Julie Bindel to state that the high-paid escorts etc are unrepresentative of sex workers in general. Bindel calls them 'tourists' because the escorts haven't seen the reality of sex work. No category of sex worker is representative of the majority. It is Perry, Bindel and Turner who can't see the reality of sex work. You can't have sensible laws that help women if you fail to understand what the problem is.

Much common sense here – particularly the suggestion that there is a "continuum" and that "no category of sex worker is representative of the majority".  Most of us have a tendency to generalise out of our own experience, forgetting that our own sample may not be typical.

I will nonetheless now do just that!

Louise Perry says that only about 15% of sex workers are drug addicts.

Now, a drug user is of course not the same thing as a drug addict.  (Another continuum!)  However I can say with absolute certainty that the vast majority of escorts I have known reasonably well over the years have been regular users of cannabis and / or cocaine.

If you're a daily user of cannabis, you can easily get through £400 to £500 a month.  Cocaine use tends to be more intermittent, but a couple of nights a week on cocaine would probably amount to about the same again.  So it's not rocket science.  If you're a young woman living on Universal Credit with a taste for drugs, having sex for money is pretty well the only option.

Offline Barclay Spank

It wasn't Louise Perry who said that 15% of sex workers are drug addicts. She thinks that it is the vast majority. It was me saying that and I think I got that from Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon who is an expert in these issues. I can't remember where she said that though. In one of Brooke Magnanti's books she said it's difficult to estimate but it's probably between 5% and 20%. There's a web page where estimates are between 3% and 25%.

Drug addicts to me are women who might spend a couple of hundred a day on crack and a hundred on heroin. Obviously many escorts might take some cocaine or cannabis but most of them won't be addicts. I don't believe they will be doing it because they hate the way they make money so much that they need to blot out their feelings with drugs, to "muffle their pain with drugs or alcohol" as Janice Turner puts it.

Louise Perry also quotes Julie Bindel who thinks that escorts and ex-escorts such as Brooke Magnanti are not representative of sex workers and so their opinions can be dismissed. She calls them 'tourists'. But no sex worker can be representative of sex workers as a whole. Both Bindel and Perry are completely wrong when they say that the majority are drug addicted, street based or pimped.

Many women come to Britain and make money through sex work to invest in their future. I would think that they outnumber the drug addicts.
Banned reason: Ignoring mod's warning regarding irrelevant and political posts.
Banned by: daviemac

Offline Vice Admiral

Drug addicts to me are women who might spend a couple of hundred a day on crack and a hundred on heroin. Obviously many escorts might take some cocaine or cannabis but most of them won't be addicts. I don't believe they will be doing it because they hate the way they make money so much that they need to blot out their feelings with drugs, to "muffle their pain with drugs or alcohol" as Janice Turner puts it.

Yes, regular use of crack and heroin (both highly addictive, of course) is probably the marker for true drug addiction.  Over the years I've known a couple of girls who were clearly "crack-whores" – the extent of the dependency being demonstrated in part by sudden and rather disconcerting departures from the field of dreams while we were in media res.  In one case the girl left not only the room but also the flat to go and get drugs.  After waiting for ten or fifteen minutes, I knocked on the sitting-room door, had a brief chat with the girl's mother, and decided to call it a day.

As for the "cause and effect" of drug use, in my experience it is the other way round, as indeed you imply.  In other words, a girl has an expensive weed and / or cocaine habit and needs to fund it.  However the almost Dickensian image of escorts taking drugs to blot out the pain of having sex with strangers of course fits neatly into the Janice Turner world-view.

Offline pbrown355

We are something of an echo chamber in here. We also have a large knowledge base of the profession of prostitution. Even though we (mostly) experience one side of the story, we know for sure that Janice Turner has no clue what she is talking about.
The amount of research that actually stands up is negligible. It seems that people would rather spout their prejudiced views on the subject than actually find out what the facts may be. Those facts will undoubtedly (my opinion) be incredibly varied as they would be if you ask any other workforce covering a wide range of work practices and incomes.