Important, regarding uk laws on sex work

[pawg_lover]

Letting as many sex workers know about this survey is important, also if any of you want to complete the survey that will also help.
Anyone can complete this survey they do not need to be from the UK, so it would also be helpful if sex workers in other countries to complete this survey.

This will be updated with new information, if you have any information to share I can add to this post that would also be great. I'm not sure what the word limit is so I will make some reserved posts just in case.

It's important to know about the speech that took place in Parliament regarding advertising platforms that allow for sex workers to work independently, screen clients, and most of work in a safe environment in a private home.

Sarah Champion wants a FOSTA/SESTA type law in the UK and the criminalize of clients, which has had devastating effects in the USA, websites have voluntary shut down, including, dating sites, message boards and some sub forums of reddit has shut down. Police in America have even come forward and have said it has made there job near impossible in actually finding victims which new claims to try and protect.
citation: External Link/Members Only
citation: External Link/Members Only

The crucial thing about FOSTA/SESTA is that it does nothing to save/protect victims of coercion, what it does do is attack freedom of speech and freedom of expression because it overrides section 230 and now makes website owners liable from user posted content.
It's important to know that backpage got seized before FOSTA/SESTA was signed into law, which means this law was not needed. 

The Home Office has commissioned £150,000 to the University of Bristol to help stop violence towards sex workers, and get a understanding on what makes sex workers safer.

Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department Victoria Atkins state how important this research is:

“As a Minister, however, I cannot proceed only on the basis of compelling, heart-breaking stories; I have to proceed on the basis of evidence. That is why we have commissioned research through the University of Bristol to understand the scale and nature of prostitution in the 21st century”

It would be very helpful if we spread the message of the current survey and provide evidence to the question as this will help them in relation to the research. I have completed the survey myself and said yes to allowing my submission to be public you can opt out to this if you wish, I made public so people are able to see that damaging laws such as FOSTA/SESTA and the Nordic model is not the answer.

-Survey and information regarding the survey-

Survey update page: External Link/Members Only
Survey faqs: External Link/Members Only
The survey in question: External Link/Members Only

-Useful information to add the survey-
Q 9 of the survey asks: Is there any particular study, report or other publication that you think it is important that we pay attention to for this project? Please give details.

Amnesty International. (2016). The Human Cost of ‘Crushing’ the Market: Criminalization of Sex Work in Norway. External Link/Members Only

English Collective of Prostitutes. (2016). Decriminalisation of Prostitution: the Evidence. External Link/Members Only

France: “Since the law criminalising clients was introduced, 63% of sex workers have experienced deterioration of their living conditions, more isolation and greater stress; 42% are more exposed to violence.” Medecins du Monde. (2018). What do sex workers think about the French Prostitution Act? External Link/Members Only

New Zealand: “Since decriminalisation, over 90% of sex workers said they had additional employment, legal, health and safety rights.” Abel, G., Fitzgerald, L. & Brunton, C. (2007). The Impact of the. Prostitution Reform Act on the Health and Safety Practices of Sex Workers. External Link/Members Only
Also, Ministry of Justice. (2008). Report of the Prostitution Law Review Committee on the Operation of the Prostitution Reform Act 2003. External Link/Members Only

Northern Ireland: “Reported incidences of violent crime against sex workers, have risen by almost 50% since the introduction of the law to criminalise clients.” The Irish Times, 4 September 2017. External Link/Members Only

Sweden: “63% of sex workers said the sex purchase law had created more prejudice from the authorities.” Jakobsson, P. & Edlund, C. (2014). Another Horizon; Sex Work and HIV Prevention in Sweden. External Link/Members Only
Also, Levy, J. and Jakobsson, P. (2014). Sweden’s abolitionist discourse and law: Effects on the dynamics of Swedish sex work on the lives of Sweden’s sex workers, Criminology and Criminal Justice. External Link/Members Only

Open Society Foundations 10 Reasons to Decriminalize Sex Work:
External Link/Members Only

Q 11 of the survey asks: are there particular individuals or groups that you believe we need to speak to?  Please give details.

English Collective of Prostitutes External Link/Members Only.
SCOT-PEP External Link/Members Only
Sex Worker Advocacy and Resistance Movement (SWARM) External Link/Members Only.
X:talk Project External Link/Members Only.
National Ugly Mugs (NUM) External Link/Members Only

New Zealand Prostitutes Collective (NZPC) External Link/Members Only.
Rose Alliance External Link/Members Only.
Sex Workers Alliance Ireland (SWAI) External Link/Members Only.
Syndicat du Travail Sexuel (STRASS) External Link/Members Only.

Q 13 of the survey asks: do you have an experience that you think would help us to understand better what prostitution and sex work looks like today in England and Wales?  If so, please give details.

This is the chance to relate your experience. Some suggestions on what to cover include: what would make you safer, why you went into sex work and if you want to leave what is preventing you from being able to do so. It is especially important to relay any experience you have of the police. Have you been raided, arrested, charged or convicted of any offence? Have you tried to report violence? How did the police treat you?

Q 14 of the survey asks: please add any other comments in this section.

Please say if you support the decriminalisation of sex work and if so, why. More information available External Link/Members Only

-more information that can be added to the survey, regularly updated with new information-


criminalized countries
America: Anti-Sex-Trafficking Advocates Say New Law Cripples Efforts to Save Victims
Not only is SESTA/FOSTA making sex work more dangerous and empowering pimps, it’s preventing advocates from finding the real trafficking victims. External Link/Members Only


partial criminalized countries


other information
Putting sex workers rights at the centre. Regardless of your view on sex work, denying that it is a job only harms those engaging in it.External Link/Members Only

Rhode Island decriminalized sex work between 2003 and 2009. At the same time, the state saw a 31 percent decline in forcible rapes against female victims, which analysts at the National Bureau of Economic Research attributed to decriminalization. External Link/Members Only

[pawg_lover]

[reserved]

[Moresomes]

[reserved]

For what.
Hopefully not chapter two. 

[pawg_lover]

For what.
Hopefully not chapter two. 

It was intended for just in case I hit the word count, if there was one.

[fairfield]

Whilst i laud your hard work in putting together all the above material - the cynic in me suspects all those academics (if their qualifications and high standing mean anything) are already fully aware of the studies you quote.
Handing the 'research' to the stop the violence against women crowd indicates to me that the conclusion was already drawn. i.e - how do legislate against men bashing wgs? - make laws to ensure they never meet, of course.

The revelation that the study of men thumping women is such a money spinner was a real eye-opener for me. Dr this and Dr that, and professor whatsit - they must all be on great salaries. Yet i thought most violence was male-on-male - how come there arent doctorships and university departments dedicated to that?

Apologies, i do realize that it is a serious subject and you have put in some hard graft, but for me trying to engage with such people is like whistling in the wind.   
 

[wristjob]

That's a lot of writing. Is there a version with 20 words or less? I don't want to spend half an hour reading through that if it's a load of crap.

[pawg_lover]

Whilst i laud your hard work in putting together all the above material - the cynic in me suspects all those academics (if their qualifications and high standing mean anything) are already fully aware of the studies you quote.
Handing the 'research' to the stop the violence against women crowd indicates to me that the conclusion was already drawn. i.e - how do legislate against men bashing wgs? - make laws to ensure they never meet, of course.

The revelation that the study of men thumping women is such a money spinner was a real eye-opener for me. Dr this and Dr that, and professor whatsit - they must all be on great salaries. Yet i thought most violence was male-on-male - how come there arent doctorships and university departments dedicated to that?

Apologies, i do realize that it is a serious subject and you have put in some hard graft, but for me trying to engage with such people is like whistling in the wind.

I still think it's worth submitting, people should always fight for their rights.

The countries where sex work is criminalized, you can see increased violence. While violence is a crime, police don't take crime against sex workers seriously because that is also a crime.

[scutty brown]

People seem to misunderstand the purpose of that survey.
Its a screening survey: those who they think have relevant information will be invited to participate by giving evidence later

[pawg_lover]

People seem to misunderstand the purpose of that survey.
Its a screening survey: those who they think have relevant information will be invited to participate by giving evidence later

They will be contacting individuals by e-mail, if they require more information which is all done via e-mails. You can opt out from being contacted if you wish.

But I think they will mainly be meeting NGO's and sex workers and other academics. If they e-mail me to meet, then I don't mind going.
They have stated that they will not be able to contact everyone, but all the responses in the survey will be publicly available.

But I think It will be done by e-mail, somebody asked if they could fill in the survey because they lived in America and they said yes.

Current stats:
1,168 responses
43% from individuals sex working/involved in prostitution (current or former)
29% expressing ‘No Affiliation’
9% from NGOs/charities
9% identifying as ‘Other’
5% from the Higher Education sector
3% from Police
1% from the Health sector
1% from the Criminal Justice sector
 

image from recent responseHidden Image/Members Only

[Aj280]

Good post

[pawg_lover]

Good post

Thanks

[Squire Haggard]

Government will make decisions after this report comes out next Spring. Hopefully they dont use it as an excuse to adopt 'the Nordic model' and criminalise punters.

It looks like government are wanting to dump responsibility for any decision that they might make onto Bristol University, regardless of how biased or unbiased that report might be. Why bother with the expense of a government when Bristol University will decide everything?  Its a bit worrying that a woman who is likely to be a leftist and feminist is in charge of this report.

Since its 2018, it will be unthinkable to have a man in charge of this report. 

However, they are still accepting contributions. After I sent mine, I got this email response a few days ago,



Dear all,


I wanted to thank you for participating in the University of Bristol Prostitution and Sex Work Online Survey.  I am dropping you a short update as you indicated that you would be willing to be contacted on this email.  If you do not want any further contact, or you think that someone has misappropriated your email address, please let me know and I will remove you from this list.


We have posted an update on the project page here: External Link/Members Only


In brief, we have had a fantastic response, and are now analysing the responses received to this point. We are leaving the survey open until 31 December 2018 as we appreciate that sometimes people discover these consultations late or have something further that they want to add.  We will check these secondary responses each week.


We deliberately asked a small number of simple and open response questions to allow people to share what they felt was important, which has been very successful.


We now need some time over the summer to analyse and follow through different queries.  We then plan to consult on our initial findings with a representative sample of individuals in the Autumn.  Given the timescale for the project (it runs till Spring 2019) and the huge response we have had, we will not be able to speak to every one of you.  However, we will continue updating the project page from the Autumn and we hope that you will find value, and some reflection of your own knowledge and experience, in what emerges.  You are welcome to email me with comments or concerns at that point.


Finally, I should stress that we have been commissioned to describe the 'nature' and 'prevalence' of prostitution and sex work in England and Wales.  We have not been asked to make recommendations on regulation.  However, we recognise both that the regulatory environment is implicated in nature and prevalence and that government could use this work to inform policy at a later date.


Wishing you all a lovely summer.


Natasha

Dr Natasha Mulvihill
Lecturer in Criminology
Centre for Gender and Violence Research
School for Policy Studies
University of Bristol
Bristol BS8 1TZ
Tel 0117 954 6733

External Link/Members Only

[snaitram99]

"Centre for Gender and Violence Research" doesn't exactly suggest an open minded approach.

[S.X. MacHine]

"Centre for Gender and Violence Research" doesn't exactly suggest an open minded approach.

Indeed. Chilling...

[forestowl]

yes its certainly beginning to look that way

[Marmalade]

Gender violence is the specialty of Prof Hester who chairs the study. I wonder if she can step outside her specialty as well?

There’s maybe a tendency for the government to keep asking for studies and reports so they can say they have consulted — before doing exactly what they wanted to do in the first place anyway.

Not every academic is insane.

BMJ:
External Link/Members Only

[forestowl]

I know its looking like this is the govts plan-I believe that the professor has previously expressed support for the Nordic model and it seems from the press release that the govt will base future policy on the study.

[Dipper]

£150,000 would be better spent curing some awful health condition or housing the homeless, or care for the elderly.
If this is correct.
 

[Horizontal pleasures]

I am not clear as there are too many words. Are punters being asked to take part in the survey? Is there any danger of being outed if we do?
HP

[Squire Haggard]

The Nordic Model has spread from Scandanavia, France, and most recently from Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland. All these governments asserting their independence by copying each other. 

The feminazis are getting their way.....

''Nordic Model Now! is a UK grassroots group campaigning for the abolition of prostitution and related practices (such as lapdancing, pornography and surrogacy).''

''And the law on prostitution has been changed. It is no longer an offence to offer services as a prostitute, while purchasing sexual activity is now illegal. The maximum penalty is a €500 fine for a first offence, €1,000 for a subsequent offence, and substantial prison sentences if the prostituted person is trafficked or a child. Combined with policy measures that provide support and exiting services for those in prostitution, this means that the Republic of Ireland now has the Nordic Model. As Northern Ireland adopted this approach in 2015, it is now in force throughout the island.''

External Link/Members Only

[Squire Haggard]

I am not clear as there are too many words. Are punters being asked to take part in the survey? Is there any danger of being outed if we do?
HP

I've taken part and will do so again by sending some links from the OP, which show that the Nordic model is not a good idea.

There's no chance of me being outed, as they only have an email address, not my name or location.

[fed24]

 

[fed24]

Been looking through the NordicModelNow website, they really haven't a clue about Punting in the modern age and much of what they say is laughably wrong but very shrill. For example here are some gems with my thoughts:

The punter doesn’t want her to simply tolerate his hands all over her body, his disgusting halitosis in her face, his rancid sweat against her skin, his dick ramming into her orifices.

If a WG asks me not to touch a particular part of her body or run my hands all over it I will comply, a pity for me but I respect requests to stop to avoid any accusations of wrong doing. I have excellent teeth and no halitosis. We all sweat and as long as you are well washed beforehand and use deodorant it shouldn't be rancid. Before a punt I will check which orifices my dick is permitted into, if a WG changes mind mid punt then I will comply as to penetrate any of her orifices without consent is Rape. Again a pity for me but it is not as if I can't have a punt with a different woman another day.

No. He also wants her to show him that she is enjoying it. Because that’s part of the deal too. The pretence that she’s enjoying it. A pretence that must be so thorough, he can believe it’s real.

Yes I generally expect the WG to appear to enjoy my company but I am under no illusions that she is massively in to me (albeit there have been the odd exceptions). On the other hand if the WG REALLY doesn't like providing services to me I would rather she told me so I could end the Punt and go.

So she not only has to bear his invasion of her boundaries and her most intimate places, but she also has to act like she’s enjoying it. This is a form of psychological violence.

No she doesn't, as a Punter I check what my boundaries are at the beginning of the Punt and at any time she can change her mind and stop it with a verbal request. I would do this because I don't want to be party in an act of violation or violence.

And if she can’t manage it, the pretence? What then?

Well that’s when he might become physically violent. Or he might become physically violent anyway, no matter how hard she pretends. Because he might just be a sadist. Or having a bad day.

This is a rather muddled point that they are making, if the WG is maintaining the pretence then the Punt will continue to completion. If the WG wants to end she only has to say I won't get violent. No I will be putting my clothes on and already considering how I will frame my negative or neutral review here.

[Marmalade]

It’s quite horrific. But bear in mind that that is the tiny minority that most of these researchers look at. Not the hundreds of thousands of working prostitutes who choose their lifestyle, are treated well by punters, and live a rather good life compared to many people.

If you collected cases of food poisoning and found most were due to badly cooked chicken you’d maybe come to the ‘logical’ conclusion that chicken should be banned. 

[Hungarian Lover]

Just read some of the information on the Nordicmodelnow.org and it's so slanted one way that whatever arguments you put up will fall on deaf ears and if the Government listens to them then it's clear that will be the end of punting as we know it. No doubt the first things that will be banned will be the sites like AW and V.street, and of course it will be something else for the undermanned Police force to Police and let's face it they're not doing a very good job at the moment!.

[pawg_lover]

"I want to make it clear that the research done by Bristol University, will not have policy recommendation."

The research is to outline what is going on in the UK in terms of sex work, and not about what should be going on.

This research is in response to this report done by Parliament a year ago which can be found here External Link/Members Only

It's a objective report and talks about the negative effects of the Nordic model, and the research done by professors has shown massive discrimination by the police against sex worker.

They also went to new Zealand to look at the effects of decriminalization and noticed the transparency and good relationship with police and reporting crimes.
For all models they looked at the advantages and disadvantages.

It also talks about Operation Homeless in Norway, which targeted sex workers.

[Marmalade]

You want to make it clear, do you?

As that fact is already at the top of the remit I think most people will know that. The remit also acknowledges that it will still doubtless have influence.

Perhaps you could offer something more informative. For instance, could check the background publications record for all the people doing the report? The chairpersons experience is in battered women so, for instance, if the report mostly tells about battered prostitutes of course that will be influential even if they represent a tiny minority.

I am not saying that someone of her calibre would allow such bias. But one needs to know that some relevant expertise is involved rather than opinions from NGOs whose livelihood depends on exaggerating any ‘problem’.

[pawg_lover]

Just read some of the information on the Nordicmodelnow.org and it's so slanted one way that whatever arguments you put up will fall on deaf ears and if the Government listens to them then it's clear that will be the end of punting as we know it. No doubt the first things that will be banned will be the sites like AW and V.street, and of course it will be something else for the undermanned Police force to Police and let's face it they're not doing a very good job at the moment!.

I have been seeing newer sites being developed using block chain technology, they claim that there websites are impossible to shut down since it's decentralized. And the block chain can be redeployed.

The people that want the Nordic model want to end demand, but do not care for the collateral damage this type of law causes.     

[pawg_lover]

You want to make it clear, do you?

As that fact is already at the top of the remit I think most people will know that. The remit also acknowledges that it will still doubtless have influence.

Perhaps you could offer something more informative. For instance, could check the background publications record for all the people doing the report? The chairpersons experience is in battered women so, for instance, if the report mostly tells about battered prostitutes of course that will be influential even if they represent a tiny minority.

I am not saying that someone of her calibre would allow such bias. But one needs to know that some relevant expertise is involved rather than opinions from NGOs whose livelihood depends on exaggerating any ‘problem’.

I think it will be unbiased and balanced, the questions are so open, you can pretty much write anything you think is appropriate.

"We understand prostitution and sex work to be diverse and complex. We recognize that choice, agency, indifference, survival, coercion and exploitation exist across and within different sectors, at different times, between different individuals and within one individual’s experience. We want to reflect some of that complexity in developing our typology." 

[Marmalade]

I think it will be unbiased and balanced, the questions are so open, you can pretty much write anything you think is appropriate.

"We understand prostitution and sex work to be diverse and complex. We recognize that choice, agency, indifference, survival, coercion and exploitation exist across and within different sectors, at different times, between different individuals and within one individual’s experience. We want to reflect some of that complexity in developing our typology."

Standard disclaimers. Mean fuck all. Some proof would be nice, as requested. Are you part of the study? Why exactly are you promoting it?

[TailSeeker]

The Nordic model none of us want, it's fucking shite.

Dr Natasha Mulvihil, in criminology? Not even close to being unbiased. Her focus being on religious based crimes could go either way. Not hopeful though. I wonder if I have her on LinkedIn... that network might finally be of use.

[pawg_lover]

Standard disclaimers. Mean fuck all. Some proof would be nice, as requested. Are you part of the study? Why exactly are you promoting it?

I completed the survey myself talking about the different types of sex work such as web cam, escort, domme, erotic message and so on, and how the internet has made if safer.
 
I'm not part of the survey, but I have contacted the individuals that are doing the research, and they said they will not be recommending any policy's.

The reason why I'm promoting the research is because it's important for as many sex workers to complete it as possible, I have spoken to some sex workers that don't know about the survey.
Also clients can complete the survey, sex work NGO's and so on.

It's also important that while sex work is legal in the UK, if a crime is committed against them, some are reluctant to report to the police because they don't think they will be taken seriously.

But in countries with decriminalization, all reports are taken seriously and sex workers feel confident that police take them seriously.

The government have already researched different models. External Link/Members Only

"79. We are not yet convinced that the sex buyer law would be effective in reducing demand or in improving the lives of sex workers, either in terms of the living conditions for those who continue to work in prostitution or the effectiveness of services to help
them find new ways to earn a living.

Evaluations of the impact of sex buyer laws are largely based on data about street prostitution, and therefore offer little insight into the large parts of the sex industry which take place in various indoor environments, and
there are indications that the law can be misused to harass and victimise sex workers, who are the very people whom the law is seeking to protect.

We are not yet persuaded that the sex buyer law is effective in reducing, rather than simply displacing, demand
for prostitution, or in helping the police to tackle the crime and exploitation associated
with the sex industry."


 

[Squire Haggard]

I'm surprised that the government need another report since their House of Commons Home Affairs Committee 2016/2017 report rejected any change in the law, as stated in the above post.
The sex workers themselves dont want the Nordic model, so who apart from the feminazis and those in the shit line when the brains were being passed out, wants to see it introduced?



''1. SCOT-PEP was established in 1989 and provided direct services to sex workers in Edinburgh for 20 years until funding ceased in 2009.  SCOT-PEP has since evolved into a Scotland-wide advocacy and campaigning group, led by current and former sex workers.

''5. SCOT-PEP campaigns for the decriminalisation of sex work and as such we believe that there should be no criminal sanction on either those who sell sex or those who buy it.  Instead we believe that criminal sanction should fall on those who mistreat, abuse and exploit sex workers. There is a wealth of academic evidence which shows that criminal sanctions, whether targeted at purchaser or seller, seriously inhibit sex workers’ safety. We know that academic submissions will be made to the inquiry so we will not use this submission to cite the relevant evidence.

 6. Where a person’s experience of selling sex is negative and causing them harm, it makes absolutely no sense to criminalise what they are currently doing to survive. All this does is further entrench marginalisation and harm. It is often argued that shifting the criminal sanction to the purchaser of sex will somehow improve the lives of people who sell sex. This is a dangerous fallacy. The criminalisation of purchasers puts sex workers in greater danger; it inhibit sex workers’ ability to support themselves financially, and pushes them into riskier situations in order to earn money. Evidence from Sweden, which was the first country to introduce laws criminalising the purchase of sex, shows the harmful effects of laws against sex buyers on sex workers.

 7. Numerous studies show that sex workers in Sweden have reported an increase in fear of violence as well as an increase in actual experience of violence since the introduction of the ‘sex buyer law’ (sexköpslagen). (Dodillet and Östergren 2011: 23; Norwegian Ministry 2004: 12 -14; Östergren 2004: 2, 5). The law reduces the time street-based sex workers have to negotiate with clients, a crucial safety measure, because clients are fearful of arrest (Levy and Jackobsson 2014). The clients of indoor workers are reluctant to give any contact information to sex workers, which means they are untraceable in the event that they do commit acts of violence (Levy and Jakobsson 2014). This makes prosecuting crimes against sex workers extremely difficult. A researcher reports speaking to a woman who, “having been forced to take anonymous clients following the sexköpslagen … [she] had lost count of the number of times she had been raped and assaulted by men who were thus untraceable. She had not been raped in the context of her sex selling before 1999.” (Levy 2014: 7)''

External Link/Members Only

[pawg_lover]

I'm surprised that the government need another report since their House of Commons Home Affairs Committee 2016/2017 report rejected any change in the law, as stated in the above post.
The sex workers themselves dont want the Nordic model, so who apart from the feminazis and those in the shit line when the brains were being passed out, wants to see it introduced?

Thanks for sharing, I think the government need to understand that websites allow for sex workers to be independent. And I have been looking at the Merseyside approach where any type of offence/violence towards sex workers is considered as a hate crime, which I think should be implemented by all police.

But also the Nordic model is a terrible law as it claims all sex workers are victims and all clients are criminals which is not true. Many sex workers enjoy there job and have respectable clients.

But we have to also acknowledge that in this world there are people with bad intentions who do not care about the law or respecting other people, violence is already a crime. The Nordic model will not end violence in this world.

I believe any type of violence committed on a person no matter what there profession is should get a mandatory 20+ years, and if they re-offend then life imprisonment.   

[fairfield]

Thanks for sharing, I think the government need to understand that websites allow for sex workers to be independent. And I have been looking at the Merseyside approach where any type of offence/violence towards sex workers is considered as a hate crime, which I think should be implemented by all police. .....   

I am probably being too naive - but i do wonder about the actual prevalence of this violence against wgs. Of course the EE pimps that i have come across by accident have all looked pretty unsavoury and i've gone out of my way to avoid them. But 'damaging the goods' must be counterproductive to their business. And my experience of EE wgs convinces me that the wgs themselves are no shrinking violets. (one showed no hesitation in slapping me around in a punt - a guy heading towards 70).

The only english wg who mentioned any 'violence' (tho small talk with wgs is rare with me - what have they got in common with an OAP, apart from the obvious?) - complained of mistreatment at the hands of male Merseyside police officers. She claimed they denied her access to a doctor for her addiction, constantly taunted and leered at her throughout the night, refused her a phone call and next day dumped her in the middle of nowhere. Her story seemed a bit far-fetched, as i thought they had all those custody rules these days. But there was no mistaking her absolute contempt for the police as she spoke.
So i would take their claim to be the way forward with a fair pinch of salt - what they say to get extra funding might be different to the actual reality.