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Author Topic: scammed on and outcall. Should I tell the police in case she comes back?  (Read 6323 times)

Offline Mikeh38

MHD if my original post sounded harsh then I apologise, but I've seen it all before including high profile buisness people getting scammed like you.

Do NOT under any circumstances contact her in any form, if you do you will make matters worse especially if she has a pimp, as I said bin her stuff she won't be back.

Cupcake X

  • Guest
Sorry to hear this Dave, it is very terrible what has happened. I do not mean to worry you but if this prostitute has got a pimp then she may be acting under his instructions. Do not make contact- don't answer either -you may need to change your number that she/they have. I hope everything is ok
Maybe do research in future (thoroughly) as to who comes to visit you at your home address.

jcdmj12

  • Guest
Just thing if Harriet Harman had her way OP wouldn't even have been able to go to the police.   :thumbsdown:

Offline Punting Valley

Sorry to hear about that, OP. Since how ever much she scammed from you is probably more than what her stuff worth, she made a profit through scamming you and ran off. I doubt she will return, it is probably just a scam, and since you have file a police report I would just leave it and make no further contact.

Just thing if Harriet Harman had her way OP wouldn't even have been able to go to the police.   :thumbsdown:

Yea the police would arrest and charge OP the second he mentions he committed punting  :scare:
I was indecisive about who to vote in the general election, but the labours' anti-punter stand has definitely pushed me away from considering them.

spkmstr48

  • Guest
Can't see many male MPs voting with Harriet, their Doms won't let them.

Offline socks

Sounds to me like you might not be alone MHD. Given that she knew your address because because she'd been there only about 20 minutes previously, why would she ask you it in a text? The only thing I can think of is that there were several of you and she wanted to check which were gullible enough to reply, to a text sent to more than one person.

My conclusion is that those who've recommend you totally ignore her, are right. She's already written off whatever shit she left at your place, as an investment on a much bigger return. It's like spam, junk mail and tele-marketing, the worst thing you can do is respond. Sleep easy mate, ignore her, she's already forgotten you.

Hopefully admin can come up with a way of exposing this cunt and her backroom staff without raising your vulnerability.

Offline Punting Valley

Can't see many male MPs voting with Harriet, their Doms won't let them.

Canadian conservative MPs voted for the anti-punter bill there, even when there was an ex-dominatrix threatening to expose the MPs who voted for the bill and were her clients.

Tjkooker

  • Guest
What I say will sound unsympathetic... However it has to be said.
She has straight scammed you. She does not care about the contents of this bag (which you still won't reveal here) she has not threatened you and has not even responded to your messages. If you persist in messaging her she will simply say you are harassing her. If police ever got involved (unlikely) you could possibly (unlikely) be charged or warned for harassment.

She's fucked you over. If you don't want comeback leave it well alone.

raylondoner

  • Guest
Isn't this a common ploy of girls that do a runner, the common one being that they have to pop out to pay the driver but never come back?

They usually leave a bag of cheap crap to prove they will return but it's worth only a fraction of what you paid her.

I doubt if you will see her again but do think that making a report to plod is a good idea.

Offline ForrestGump

This is really grim HMD! You didn't deserve this and I'm sorry to hear that it happened to you.

I definitely think you should report this to plod as, if nothing else, you'll most likely feel better for having doing so. And who knows it may even lead to this dirt-bag being apprehended as she's probably already a 'usual suspect' and your report may make it just that little bit easier for them to charge her.

NEGaz

  • Guest
Go to the police it happened in York a couple of years back and the girl got charged & Sentenced

SirFrank

  • Guest
What did you decide to do in the end mate?

Curious6705

  • Guest
Just seen this thread this morning. Sorry to hear of your trouble. Honestly, and it's difficult to offer advice, not least because it may seem glib coming from an able bodied person, but I would do nothing. I would want to remain discreet, and involving the authorities may make that difficult.

If there's a hint that she or an associate is threatening then that's a different matter and the Police must be involved IMO. But if it's "just" a scam, I would write it off. Personally, before any punt, I always remind myself that it's just that, and I may be throwing be the punting fee away for little or no reward, and personally I accept that, and have written the money off in my mind.

So long as there's been no actual threat I would put away from your mind fears she or an associate may return - and each day those fears should recede a little more - though like I say, any sniff of that, and I would go to the Police. And hopefully your premises are secure?

It's a shame LMP don't appear to be returning for Bristol - otherwise that could have been some monthly fun for you. Perhaps stick to forum darlings with a good rep, or reliable agencies - if there are any locally.

Wrt to the police saying you hadn't actually been scammed yet, I do recall an experience where a cashier had "borrowed" some money. The police took no immediate action, IIRC because an offence has been committed where the intention was to permanently deprive the victim of the cash.

Offline smiths

Just thing if Harriet Harman had her way OP wouldn't even have been able to go to the police.   :thumbsdown:

Absolutely spot on point. :thumbsup:

Siadwel

  • Guest

Just thing if Harriet Harman had her way OP wouldn't even have been able to go to the police.   :thumbsdown:

Absolutely spot on point. :thumbsup:

And it's made my mind up more than The Debate' last night.

Another horrible out-call scam thread. Sympathies with HMD, hope it all works out/worked out harmlessly enough for you.

It's these threads that make me think many more times than twice about out-calls.


Ben4454

  • Guest

Advice to everyone: Ask for the cash back if WG attempts to leave premises for ANY reason. If she refuses to hand over - you're about to be scammed.

Offline latecomer

I've just read this thread and feel sympathy for you hmd and anger towards said prossie.

I too don't think she will come knocking, the threat of the police involved will have her and her pimp (who, by the way is potentially living off immoral earnings) keeping well away.

One if my concerns for you pal is that you state that your in a low place and deserve it.

IT'S NOT YOUR FAULT, AND YOU DO NOT DESERVE IT.

I really don't think there will be much comes from this, I think she will return to get gutter and continue to scam punters until she really does scam the wrong one.

Learn from this pal, be very very choosy with regards an outcall to your address, read the reviews on here with lads that have had outcall to their homes, pm the ukp member and believe me, we're all helping each other on here.

Does anyone on here know if this is still against the law?  I thought I'd read that the law was changed (?) some years ago so that it's no longer a crime?

Offline house music dave

Evening all.

So this is how it played out in the end.

My carer (who know's/knew what i did) arrives at 11.00pm I've still got the girls bag which as i said earlier was a prossie's toolkit. I didn't ask any of it for this particular meet with this girl, you know the type of stuff. Condoms, wet wipes, oil, anal toys, handcuffs! stripper heels.

So I basically tell my carer the situation in case she comes knocking on the door, she is sympathetic but worried about staying the night in case anything kicks off and strongly says that this is not part of her job description, that i've been an idiot and she feels unsafe. she asks to see the bag (which i refuse to show her).   

She's torn between leaving and staying obviously she still feels she has a duty of care. Eventually she says she'll stay only on the condition that i don't open the door to this girl.

Around 11.10 i get a call from this girl, saying that she's had to travel and get shit sorted and that she's more then willing to see me...and that shit happens and she'd never scam me. I tell her i'm dumping the bag outside of my flat and that i don't want to see or speak to her ever again. She accepts this and around 20 mins later the bag is gone. The reason why I did this is that the police said if she doesn't collect her stuff by the end of the night you can bring it into the station. she contacted me before 12.00 therefore I had to give her the stuff.

Now comes the hard part.

I know this isn't the place for this and I apologise but: 

I suffer with periods of depression at the moment i'm on a low. As such I have a big heart to heart with my carer and talk about the fear I feel about my family ever found out. (folks are christians) sister n law has strong views. I then go into a diatribe about what a cunt I am, and how i fucking hate myself. Carer nods and says she knows, she see's it every shift she's in. 


My carer rightly says I have to make some changes, one of them being cutting out seeing escorts, my libido is rock smack bottom at the moment, so wouldn't be hard. and that maybe i should join a group for people in my situation. (FFS I even struggle to wank) She also thinks I should tell my parents so the sword of damocles isn't hanging over my head

i know where she's going with this, but watching porn once or twice a week and seeing escorts about every 3 or 4 doesn't count as an addiction or a problem. I've spoken to doctors, sexual health specialists and counselors and the most anyone has ever said is "look after yourself" every other response seems to be "we understand...you are a man, you are 25...you have needs".

 In short working in care in close proximity with someone is about trust and picking your battles, I've just lost every bit of goodwill I had with this carer.

As a boss I fucked up badly , I put a member of staff in potential danger, If I have an outcall to my house again. I think she'll probably leave as I am on a pretty destructive path at the moment, and that is fair enough.           

Whatever i do from now on, I have no one to back me, no one to save me ( i don't ask for this i'd rather take a beating then have to go to an employment tribunal because some hooker has smacked a carer.)

I've just fucked up really badly.

Anyway, Thank you all so much for giving me advice and support. You kept my sanity in check...(till my carer came in at least) This is gonna seem a misogynistic comment but I knew you guys would come good. I truly do think that in certain situations It only works when men seek advice and support from their elders. 

Cheers guys.

HMD   

 

SirFrank

  • Guest
Hi mate, glad to hear you didn't get any further grief from this scammer. Don't beat yourself up over this. You made a mistake, you lost money and no one got assaulted. Try not to dwell on it. I'm sure everything will blow over and in time your carer and you can have a reasonably normal relationship - she didn't come to any harm. Don't beat yourself up about having sexual needs either, it's normal, it's not a disease. Don't tell your parents, they don't need to know.

If you haven't already, I suggest you go see your GP. It sounds like you might be depressed? Take it easy bud and don't beat yourself up

Online johnny34

If you haven't already, I suggest you go see your GP. It sounds like you might be depressed? Take it easy bud and don't beat yourself up

+1. Hi Dave, it sounds like your carer is aware of your mood/feelings at the moment. Take some time-out from punting & as Sir Frank says get some help from your GP. Good luck & take care of yourself.

Offline cueball

Best of luck Dave, glad it's kind of sorted itself easily.

I can't comment on depression as I've never suffered from it but whatever helps get you on the up has got to be good.

Once you've calmed down and things have settled you'll start feeling like a randy 25yr old again. My advice is....

Read your positive review, book the same girl again whilst your carer is out, punt and enjoy. Life is too short not to enjoy.

You're here for a good time not a long time.

Offline bunny84

Police are useless . It's your word against hers you gave her money Fuck the bitch bin her stuff and get her back somehow if you can . Even if it'd by putting her number on Gumtree advertising free stuff like a tv . I have done this to people for a laugh . There phone rings none stop

Offline smiths

Evening all.

So this is how it played out in the end.

My carer (who know's/knew what i did) arrives at 11.00pm I've still got the girls bag which as i said earlier was a prossie's toolkit. I didn't ask any of it for this particular meet with this girl, you know the type of stuff. Condoms, wet wipes, oil, anal toys, handcuffs! stripper heels.

So I basically tell my carer the situation in case she comes knocking on the door, she is sympathetic but worried about staying the night in case anything kicks off and strongly says that this is not part of her job description, that i've been an idiot and she feels unsafe. she asks to see the bag (which i refuse to show her).   

She's torn between leaving and staying obviously she still feels she has a duty of care. Eventually she says she'll stay only on the condition that i don't open the door to this girl.

Around 11.10 i get a call from this girl, saying that she's had to travel and get shit sorted and that she's more then willing to see me...and that shit happens and she'd never scam me. I tell her i'm dumping the bag outside of my flat and that i don't want to see or speak to her ever again. She accepts this and around 20 mins later the bag is gone. The reason why I did this is that the police said if she doesn't collect her stuff by the end of the night you can bring it into the station. she contacted me before 12.00 therefore I had to give her the stuff.

Now comes the hard part.

I know this isn't the place for this and I apologise but: 

I suffer with periods of depression at the moment i'm on a low. As such I have a big heart to heart with my carer and talk about the fear I feel about my family ever found out. (folks are christians) sister n law has strong views. I then go into a diatribe about what a cunt I am, and how i fucking hate myself. Carer nods and says she knows, she see's it every shift she's in. 


My carer rightly says I have to make some changes, one of them being cutting out seeing escorts, my libido is rock smack bottom at the moment, so wouldn't be hard. and that maybe i should join a group for people in my situation. (FFS I even struggle to wank) She also thinks I should tell my parents so the sword of damocles isn't hanging over my head

i know where she's going with this, but watching porn once or twice a week and seeing escorts about every 3 or 4 doesn't count as an addiction or a problem. I've spoken to doctors, sexual health specialists and counselors and the most anyone has ever said is "look after yourself" every other response seems to be "we understand...you are a man, you are 25...you have needs".

 In short working in care in close proximity with someone is about trust and picking your battles, I've just lost every bit of goodwill I had with this carer.

As a boss I fucked up badly , I put a member of staff in potential danger, If I have an outcall to my house again. I think she'll probably leave as I am on a pretty destructive path at the moment, and that is fair enough.           

Whatever i do from now on, I have no one to back me, no one to save me ( i don't ask for this i'd rather take a beating then have to go to an employment tribunal because some hooker has smacked a carer.)

I've just fucked up really badly.

Anyway, Thank you all so much for giving me advice and support. You kept my sanity in check...(till my carer came in at least) This is gonna seem a misogynistic comment but I knew you guys would come good. I truly do think that in certain situations It only works when men seek advice and support from their elders. 

Cheers guys.

HMD   

 

Dave its easy for me to say your an adult and punting isn't illegal (yet) so its not your carers business if you choose to book WGs. All that is of course true but your carer was scared, so I have sympathy for her. However, that doesn't mean she can dictate how you live your life, that's up to you.

If push comes to shove isn't another carer a possibility, rather that than you cant do what you wish in my view.

Butter

  • Guest
Just wanted to say its awful what she has done to you. You have had good advice here, don't take it to heart. She obviously will do and will have done the same to many others.

X


Offline Lilywhite

  • Service Provider
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Evening all.

So this is how it played out in the end.

My carer (who know's/knew what i did) arrives at 11.00pm I've still got the girls bag which as i said earlier was a prossie's toolkit. I didn't ask any of it for this particular meet with this girl, you know the type of stuff. Condoms, wet wipes, oil, anal toys, handcuffs! stripper heels.

So I basically tell my carer the situation in case she comes knocking on the door, she is sympathetic but worried about staying the night in case anything kicks off and strongly says that this is not part of her job description, that i've been an idiot and she feels unsafe. she asks to see the bag (which i refuse to show her).   

She's torn between leaving and staying obviously she still feels she has a duty of care. Eventually she says she'll stay only on the condition that i don't open the door to this girl.

Around 11.10 i get a call from this girl, saying that she's had to travel and get shit sorted and that she's more then willing to see me...and that shit happens and she'd never scam me. I tell her i'm dumping the bag outside of my flat and that i don't want to see or speak to her ever again. She accepts this and around 20 mins later the bag is gone. The reason why I did this is that the police said if she doesn't collect her stuff by the end of the night you can bring it into the station. she contacted me before 12.00 therefore I had to give her the stuff.

 

Did she return your money?

Offline skirtLift

Start researching secure and good value hotels in your area, recon: staff will be happy to show you around & answer questions ....outcall to hotel room: your real address is protected from WGs + maintains privacy from family/carers etc + hotel security on hand.  If must, offset extra cost by punting a bit less often.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 02:40:52 pm by skirtLift »

Offline fisherofsouls

I think we would all be interested in having details of this woman, by PM if necessary...

Offline cueball

Start researching secure and good value hotels in your area, recon: staff will be happy to show you around & answer questions ....outcall to hotel room: your real address is protected from WGs + maintains privacy from family/carers etc + hotel security on hand.  If must, offset extra cost by punting a bit less often.

Excellent idea for op there she great advice

bensonhedges20

  • Guest
I think the opposite:

What you need is a male or female who can let a girl in and leave you two at it and knock when times up.

Its possibly the only way you can safely have fun.

although there are many chancers, you need to book someone who has said clearly that they will see disabled people.

I do not think the decent escorts would mind being let in and payment handled by one of your friends or carers.

booking a hotel in your circumstances is stupid. Find someone that can help you or forget this hobby.

bensonhedges20

  • Guest
Start researching secure and good value hotels in your area, recon: staff will be happy to show you around & answer questions ....outcall to hotel room: your real address is protected from WGs + maintains privacy from family/carers etc + hotel security on hand.  If must, offset extra cost by punting a bit less often.

What hotel security? He calls a guest and she takes cash behind closed doors and walks. Nothing he can do.

Its stupid in his case.

The chances of being scammed in his home or a hotel are equal.

Offline cueball


The chances of being scammed in his home or a hotel are equal.

Agreed but if you read the op's posts, his greatest concern was not the scam but the fact that his home address was involved, an hotel would cover that angle well

sexy_lacyx

  • Guest
Thoughts with you HMD.  As someone that has known you.  As a Reg Nurse myself you do have a right too confidentiality, don't feel pushed into telling anyone anything, just because you have a disability does not mean you don't have equal rights, I'm quite happy too take time out if ever you need a chat off record.  Take care of you're self x L

Offline skirtLift

The chances of being scammed in his home or a hotel are equal.
I disagree, cctv would put most off from scam/robbery thus lowering the chances, it's obvious the girl involved here didn't want the police involved.  If the op was in a hotel he could have pressed the police harder to do something as the girl didn't know his address so no worries about getting a brick through the window. If something did happen the hotel staff would remove the girl from the room/building at your request, if you're at home the only way you can do that is to involve the police, so hotel gives you more options .... But, also, the main point of the hotel is to separate mongering from his home life which a hotel provides in spades.

booking a hotel in your circumstances is stupid. Find someone that can help you or forget this hobby.
Yeh, give up sex, go run and hide after a bad punt.  :wackogirl:

Where on earth is he going to find someone to oversee his punt?  Hire a G4 security guard for an hour?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 03:39:05 pm by skirtLift »

Offline smiths

I have posted this before but for anyone interested this site may be of help though I cant vouch for it as definitely being so. External Link/Members Only

Offline HappyandLucky

I think we would all be interested in having details of this woman, by PM if necessary...
Eitherway, a clever way should be found to out this skank and inform others punters and stop this happening to others.

Offline house music dave

Evening guys.

Once again thanks for your comments and advice, for those of you that said "you may sound harsh" not at all. Sometimes the best medicine can taste a little bitter.

In terms of being scammed, I'm torn, out of instinct, my first loyalty is to other punters. I'm sure we all feel the same feelings of wariness and possible apprehension, big, tall, short or small. I've had a couple of offers of help with putting distance between myself and the girl whilst still placing her on the blacklist. I'll email admin now it's all sorted and see what he says. the blacklist is the least I can do after all the advice.

In terms of punting, I can't see any way to continue. I would risk losing staff but it all has to happen at the right time and with the way i feel at the moment I need my team around me. I need a quiet time. Social care is an interesting one really because I have "mental capacity" I am able to make my own decisions and it's seen as a form of "abuse" to stop me however my staff are also required to have a "duty of care" towards me which means that when i get in trouble they have to involve the relevant authority... it's a tricky one.

Example: I go to a hotel and get left and fucked up, no way i'm calling my carers...but their duty of care kicks in and they start worrying, I come back bruised and battered. They go ape shit and can't deal with the fact that people could look at them and think that they were to blame, or that i'm causing them to be worried. in their eyes that could be pushing a professional boundary.


The ideal is to have a trusted set of regulars that you trust for an outcall I do have around 3 people that I can call on. However I've already pushed that goodwill to the max with the carer that was there on Thursday. and I don't wish to discuss what I do with my carers as that gives them an idea of where I'm at financially. (trust me...it matters)
 
The hotel debate is interesting...i'd always say you are much safer in a hotel, a couple of years ago when i was a younger buck I managed to get £20 pounds back off a romanian girl when I was at a hotel the reason I was able to stand/sit my ground is that. A) we were in an Ibis in the city centre someones gonna notice if i get stabbed B) we were in my country, she was never gonna best me on the language and bullshit front C) she worked on turnover i.e. she wanted me the fuck out. IMO you are always pretty much okay in a hotel chain or good apartment complex in a good area.     

It's always said to new members who post with anxiety and worries that punting is not for the faint hearted. and that if it doesn't feel right it's not for you. I've not really been too faint hearted before. Once you make the mental jump you have UKP to help bolster and advise you also you learn to see punting for what it is. You want to get the best deal you can so you put all your criteria of services, reliability, character, work ethic, price. plus if you are honest upfront and not a prick, you'll do well.

The sobering lesson I got the other night was that whatever I do it will always affect my staff and they will not thank me for it, given where punting sits in society and the grey area that most people think it occupies within the law.       

As many have said, if you can't hack it, don't do it. I just wanted to have a good time punting but I punched above my weight.

Thanks all for the support, I'm not making any claims of giving up. I'm a firm believer of the school of thought that says once in it's hard to get out. plus i struggle to wank...which sucks but alas  this is life....we shall see how my working relationship with my staff goes.               

HMD

Online daviemac

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Hi Dave

I was sorry to hear about your problem.

The only advise I can give is to stop thinking about punting for a while, give yourself time to get over any trauma you might have felt. I'm sure things will look better in a week or two and when you're less stressed a solution may be more obvious.

All the best

Offline house music dave

Hi Dave

I was sorry to hear about your problem.

The only advise I can give is to stop thinking about punting for a while, give yourself time to get over any trauma you might have felt. I'm sure things will look better in a week or two and when you're less stressed a solution may be more obvious.

All the best


Cheers davie.

Hope your next punt is a great one. 

Offline cueball

Hmd

Do you not fancy another go with the lass you've given a positive review to? I know you're going to need a bit of dust settling time.

She's on here as well, you know each other, it's a bit like falling off a bike, best thing to do is get back on and ride again (pun intended).

I don't think anybody would criticise you for punting with the same lass twice, might kill some demons for you pal.

Offline fish 3912

health and safety,duty of care,its all bullshit,if i was your carer id help you punt as much as you bloody wanted,if nothing else its good therapy  :) gool luck dude.

bensonhedges20

  • Guest
I disagree, cctv would put most off from scam/robbery thus lowering the chances, it's obvious the girl involved here didn't want the police involved.  If the op was in a hotel he could have pressed the police harder to do something as the girl didn't know his address so no worries about getting a brick through the window. If something did happen the hotel staff would remove the girl from the room/building at your request, if you're at home the only way you can do that is to involve the police, so hotel gives you more options .... But, also, the main point of the hotel is to separate mongering from his home life which a hotel provides in spades.
Yeh, give up sex, go run and hide after a bad punt.  :wackogirl:

Where on earth is he going to find someone to oversee his punt?  Hire a G4 security guard for an hour?

Cctv will not help behind closed doors. No crime is visible on the CCTV. All you see is a person entering and exiting - what use will that do?

Police will say civil matter and walk away.

She can just as easily cause a scene and say you attacked her.

Its ultimately one persons word against hers.

Now - just as a punt im talking about premier inn, ibis, travelodge, easy hotel types. There is no security.

Lastly, letting the hotel know you invited an.escort will probably see them throw you out after. They dont want bad publicity.

As for the second quote - im not saying he should give up sex Or punting.

You can see he is shaken up. One should not be this worried after a punt - regardless of being scammed or not.

Instead of burning her clothes or at the very least throwing bleach in the bag before letting her claim back her goods - hes phoning the police and messaging the escort (who ripped him off CLEARLY) to claim back her goods.

I understand he made an outcall for the lady in question but one must cover all the bases in situations like this.

There is no trust these days. You simply cannot trust escorts. The fact escorts can rob a disabled person just shows the world we are living in.

At the very least she could have thrown his money back through the letterbox and apologised.
For the sake of £100 odd quid she robbed a disabled person, has no conscience and has fucked off to look for another mark.

« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 04:42:18 am by bensonhedges20 »

Offline skirtLift

Cctv will not help.....
Yeh, thats why businesses spend millions installing cctv because it doesn't lower crime rates.  :wackogirl:

You maybe also have noticed these silly businesses don't install cctv in every room, its mostly around the entrances and exits.

Any experienced monger knows these girls don't like police involvement, they might not get charged for ripping off a punter behind closed door, but they certainly don't want police sniffing around their pads, they may be drug users, or have warrants out etc...so they will avoid mongers who have taken the time to protect themselves a little and move on to an easier mark.

I stopped reading after this nonsense in your first sentence, as it's obvious you will argue that black is white ...cos your still a lil butt hurt from that other thread, so have dragged your huff into this non related thread!

bensonhedges20

  • Guest
Lol

You dont get the point.

behind closed doors you cant do nothing. Unless the police can visualise a theft then they cant do shit. I have had enough dealings professionally with them to know how they react.

As for businesses, they will know the personal details of the customer or atleast have the theft on record. Alot more info than saying 'miss oral superstar' robbed me of £120. on the offchance someone steals a computer etc, tey can see before and after pictures and there will be staff on hand.to have seen something and/or security.

Hotel cctv is useless. You wont get robbed anywhere but within a hotel room. It is useless for punting.