AirBnB - hidden cameras

[advent2016]

I'm staying in an Airbnb and whilst trying to find out the Netflix password, found  camera streams from some of the rooms in this rent, front door, back door, living room and bedroom. I suppose a Landlord might want to protect his property but is this actually legal?
I've found the cameras and covered the bedroom one with a soft toy.  The person that set this router up knows a bit about IT, VLANs, port security and the like.

No one has contacted me yet, or come to the property.

It has made me wonder if this is common practice.

I may  still have an outcall and maybe record myself

[Silver Birch]

I'm staying in an Airbnb and whilst trying to find out the Netflix password, found  camera streams from some of the rooms in this rent, front door, back door, living room and bedroom. I suppose a Landlord might want to protect his property but is this actually legal?
I've found the cameras and covered the bedroom one with a soft toy.  The person that set this router up knows a bit about IT, VLANs, port security and the like.

No one has contacted me yet, or come to the property.

It has made me wonder if this is common practice.

I may  still have an outcall and maybe record myself

Fucking hell, that is outrageous (if not illegal, surely against airBnB rules)! Who know what the real motive is, but far more sinister than just security I suspect. I would report that to airBnB and put it in your review on their account! 

[Drekszter]

That can't be legal - it's a breach of privacy and he must have dark intentions to be doing this. I can understand a CCTV camera at the main door as a lot of people do that already for home security, but inside the bedroom for rentals? Errm...

If I were you, I'd take photographic evidence of where you found them and complain to Airbnb.

[whoya.kiddin]

I am not a lawyer but if the landlord has not told you about the cameras I am certain they are committing a pretty serious offence.  If you don't get a satisfactory opinion here I suggest you post your query on the UKlaw subreddit (google "reddit").  It is tightly moderated and you are likely to get a detailed legal opinion.

I know a landlord was prosecuted and I beIive got a custodial sentance for viewing a tenant having sex with her boyfriend in a rented room in  the landlords family home about 5 years ago as I recall. 

[advent2016]

I was a bit worried that it might be more "official" type of surveillance  and nothing to do with the the owner, but again it's configured on his router.  If it was proper covert it would be hidden properly. I've taken a few screen shots and photos and will think about it before I send it to ABNB as I don't want to find I'm messing with the Russian mafia.

Now I'm getting paranoid, maybe this is the stuff I was supposed to find and there is some bloke  laughing at me in his lair stroking a white cat.

I'm typing this on a server that is double vpn'd to my server in the cloud.

[Dashing]

I'm staying in an Airbnb and whilst trying to find out the Netflix password, found  camera streams from some of the rooms in this rent, front door, back door, living room and bedroom. I suppose a Landlord might want to protect his property but is this actually legal?
I've found the cameras and covered the bedroom one with a soft toy.  The person that set this router up knows a bit about IT, VLANs, port security and the like.

No one has contacted me yet, or come to the property.

It has made me wonder if this is common practice.

I may  still have an outcall and maybe record myself

+1 to all the comments already made: outrageous.

Know anecdotally from friends and from seeing what's on sale these days that home-monitoring CCTV security is increasingly used but to discover this kind of thing streaming anonymously while you are there - must have been a shock.

Would be interested to know to what lengths the landlord had gone to conceal the cameras, advent2016, especially as at least you knew where to look, knowing where they were pointing, and that wouldn't normally be the case.

You sure there isn't one in the bathroom too?

[advent2016]

Other than the obvious ones at front and rear of house, I wasn't looking for them. I had trouble getting my IPTV / Kodi box working on his router, so started sniffing the network and was then found the streams and saved the video and it was fairly easy to find the camera hidden in ceiling or wall. I can't tell from this end if anything is actually recording or watching the video, anyway I've blocked the cameras I don't like.

At my own place I have motion detection to start recording that can discriminate between cat and person entering my garden in different zones.

[cotton]

Setting cameras up for home security is one thing but cameras in the bedroom is definitely not legitimate , its probably just a snoopy landlord wanting to keep comprehensive tabs on his property , he might get some voyeuristic kick out of spying on the guests in his property , very unlikely to be organised crime or have any serious implications other than infriging your privacy but thats serious enough to report and leave in your review , thats pretty mad.
Also, just by the by how can you access UKP via a VPN , i thought that wasnt allowed or only allowed with permission.

[Al R]

AirBnB allow cameras IF they are disclosed but do not allow them in private areas (bathroom, bedroom etc.)

[Vic69]

Def illigal, a guy in my home town got sent to prison for setting up hidden cameras in his rental property.

[MissWolf]

I'm staying in an Airbnb and whilst trying to find out the Netflix password, found  camera streams from some of the rooms in this rent, front door, back door, living room and bedroom. I suppose a Landlord might want to protect his property but is this actually legal?
I've found the cameras and covered the bedroom one with a soft toy.  The person that set this router up knows a bit about IT, VLANs, port security and the like.

No one has contacted me yet, or come to the property.

It has made me wonder if this is common practice.

I may  still have an outcall and maybe record myself

That actually makes me feel quite sick for more than one reason...

As a wg I  occasionally stay in Airbnb's
As a mother I'm very glad my kids are grow adults because if I was using this with my young kids the implications are not nice to think of....

[Lou2019]

I’d be interested to hear the outcome of this thread,  have you contacted Airbnb for advice at all?

[LLPunting]

Placing of cams inside the rental is a flagrant illegal act.

I'd report direct to the police as well as AirBnB (who would unsurprisingly be ineffective) with photo evidence of the install and netflix config, also a listing of all properties offered by the landlord.  I would also alert recent occupants and leave open feedback on the rental.

[m4rmite]

Unplug and take the cameras, the landlord can't sue you without admitting to recording and breaking the law.

If you get asked for them back, ask how they know it's you, then tell them your reporting it to the police.
Wait and see what response you get, i'm sure a no win no fee company will jump on this.

[advent2016]

Previous Mod allowed me VPN access as I was working abroad a lot, or places where one has to use a VPN.

In this instance I run VPN to connect a Guacamole server to connect via a VPN back to my Linuxserver that I use to connect to UKP etc. So in that instance I'm not on a VPN so far as UKP is concerned, unless I turn that on as well.

I try not to use a VPN too much as although hiding what you do it advertises that you want to hide what you do. I expect (hope) NCSC/NSA can see every word if they chose.
 

[Dutchmaster]

I would be very upset if I discovered this, I don’t have a problem with someone want to protect their house etc but they have to let the occupants know there are cameras , there has to be a law against this somewhere.

[LLPunting]

Unplug and take the cameras, the landlord can't sue you without admitting to recording and breaking the law.

If you get asked for them back, ask how they know it's you, then tell them your reporting it to the police.
Wait and see what response you get, i'm sure a no win no fee company will jump on this.

Oh I like this idea!   

Or better still, disable and then set your own to observe who turns up to fix them... then tell them you have them on camera...  to report them to the police of course.

[donnybob]

In this instance I run VPN to connect a Guacamole server to connect via a VPN back to my Linuxserver that I use to connect to UKP etc. So in that instance I'm not on a VPN so far as UKP is concerned, unless I turn that on as well.

Is it just me that I haven't a clue what that paragraph means 

[jeanphillipe]

Is it just me that I haven't a clue what that paragraph means 

Hidden Image/Members Only

[mr.bluesky]

Is it just me that I haven't a clue what that paragraph means 

Nope. Not just  you 

[cunningpunt]

Oh I like this idea!   

Or better still, disable and then set your own to observe who turns up to fix them... then tell them you have them on camera...  to report them to the police of course.

Tempting but if sounds like you already have enough evidence and know your way around networks. Don't commit a crime to prosecute one. This is clearly and simply illegal. LL paintings first advice was spot on.
- report to police
- report to Airbnb
- consider private prosecution

[advent2016]

Although this place has the facility, I have no hard proof that anything is being recorded viewed. I may have committed an offence getting access to their network / equipment without permission.  I considered adding a $5 RPI router to the network for continued remote access for me but didn't.

I've contacted ABB. I'll consider whether I'll contact Law enforcement,  I wouldn't want my punting life easily connected to my civ life.

I'm now going to check any future ABB, holidaylets, homeaway etc for unauthorised Cameras.

[Horizontal pleasures]

it may be illegal or dangerous but it is surely off-topic.

[Happyjose]

it may be illegal or dangerous but it is surely off-topic.

Many WG’s use Airbnb when touring

So it can be considered punting related

[LLPunting]

it may be illegal or dangerous but it is surely off-topic.

Not off-topic if possible venues, whether chosen or not, can compromise your privacy or lead to exploitation or blackmail.

[mcb]

Unplug and take the cameras, the landlord can't sue you without admitting to recording and breaking the law.

If you get asked for them back, ask how they know it's you, then tell them your reporting it to the police.
Wait and see what response you get, i'm sure a no win no fee company will jump on this.

This is terrible advice as, if you take the cameras, that’s theft.

Unplug them or obscure them, yes. But don’t take them.

[myothernameis]

Have you tried to ask the person thats own the property, to see what the cameras are used for

Could easily be a innocent reason like protecting the property, when the rooms are not being rented

[PatMacGroin]

Totally dodgy. No matter how much they protest their innocence or claim it's for security purposes they should not be recording guests/tenants inside the house. I'm sure there have been other reports in the papers of Airbnb hosts doing this.

Out of interest is the host male or female? Bet it's some dirty old bugger 

[Misspleasecumsqueeze]

While I can understand from the point of security. Cameras at locations like front, back and patio doors, for one to be in the bedroom, no excuse whatsoever. They should specify in their advert, clearly that cctv is throughout the property including the bedroom, if that is how they wish to play it. But covertly that is so wrong!
I wouldn’t wanna see a guy, knocking one out, when I reviewed the cc footage if it were me. And if he was so inclined to get an outcall, so what, provided he leaves place spic n span, as he found it, would I care, nope.
Now if he used it to be dealing drugs or other dodgy dealings, of course that would be a different issue entirely.
But private sanctuary place as a bedroom is, not on.

[m4rmite]

This is terrible advice as, if you take the cameras, that’s theft.

Unplug them or obscure them, yes. But don’t take them.

Theft or protecting your privacy and the next person to rent the place?

Ok call the cops straight away

[Squire Haggard]

The landlord has committed a serious offence. I searched ''jailed for hidden cameras.''

External Link/Members Only



There will be a UK case somewhere, but a quick search reveals,

External Link/Members Only

[PleadInsanity]

I guess it is even possible that someone who previously rented the property put them up thinking they might get a chance of a free perve.

[CGlasgow]

Although this place has the facility, I have no hard proof that anything is being recorded viewed. I may have committed an offence getting access to their network / equipment without permission.  I considered adding a $5 RPI router to the network for continued remote access for me but didn't.

I've contacted ABB. I'll consider whether I'll contact Law enforcement,  I wouldn't want my punting life easily connected to my civ life.

I'm now going to check any future ABB, holidaylets, homeaway etc for unauthorised Cameras.

You have permission to access their network etc for internet access as you're staying there. Say you noticed the cameras first and then checked for the video stream.

Certainly do contact the police on this, having IP cameras set up in the bedrooms of a rental apartment is dodgy af.

[threechilliman]

The one in the bedroom is to watch people fucking, no other reason IMO.

[Adoniron]

The one in the bedroom is to watch people fucking, no other reason IMO.

And that is the offence of voyeurism.

[RayGuy]

And that is the offence of voyeurism.

It is but the offence of voyeurism in section 16: Sexual Offences Act is wider than that:

Voyeurism
[1)A person commits an offence if—
(a)for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, he observes another person doing a private act, and
(b)he knows that the other person does not consent to being observed for his sexual gratification.
(2)A person commits an offence if—
(a)he operates equipment with the intention of enabling another person to observe, for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, a third person (B) doing a private act, and
(b)he knows that B does not consent to his operating equipment with that intention.
(3)A person commits an offence if—
(a)he records another person (B) doing a private act,
(b)he does so with the intention that he or a third person will, for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, look at an image of B doing the act, and
(c)he knows that B does not consent to his recording the act with that intention.
(4)A person commits an offence if he instals equipment, or constructs or adapts a structure or part of a structure, with the intention of enabling himself or another person to commit an offence under subsection (1).
(5)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years.

[PatMacGroin]

It is but the offence of voyeurism in section 16: Sexual Offences Act is wider than that:

Voyeurism
[1)A person commits an offence if—
(a)for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, he observes another person doing a private act, and
(b)he knows that the other person does not consent to being observed for his sexual gratification.
(2)A person commits an offence if—
(a)he operates equipment with the intention of enabling another person to observe, for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, a third person (B) doing a private act, and
(b)he knows that B does not consent to his operating equipment with that intention.
(3)A person commits an offence if—
(a)he records another person (B) doing a private act,
(b)he does so with the intention that he or a third person will, for the purpose of obtaining sexual gratification, look at an image of B doing the act, and
(c)he knows that B does not consent to his recording the act with that intention.
(4)A person commits an offence if he instals equipment, or constructs or adapts a structure or part of a structure, with the intention of enabling himself or another person to commit an offence under subsection (1).
(5)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years.

Yep, sounds like what the OP reported. Whether or not the host gets prosecuted will come down to the mens rea. Did he intend to observe/record a private act for the sexual gratification of himself/others or was the equipment only installed for "security" purposes. I think most juries would recognise that the host is a creepy peeping tom.

[thumbspot]

Was a news story a while back of a bloke selling dodgy Sky boxes with hidden cameras installed. Installed them in bedrooms, including kids, and spent a lot of time in prison when caught.

It’s an important point for punting. Increases risks of incalls in rented places that had not occurred to me. I prefer hotels myself.

[Thecunninglinguist]

Yep, sounds like what the OP reported. Whether or not the host gets prosecuted will come down to the mens rea. Did he intend to observe/record a private act for the sexual gratification of himself/others or was the equipment only installed for "security" purposes. I think most juries would recognise that the host is a creepy peeping tom.

A court would be entitled to look at the set up of the equipment along with any explanation by the defendant and on that basis draw inference as to what the intended use was. Bearing in mind that the defendants computers would have been seized and the hard drives examined also. 

[PatMacGroin]

A court would be entitled to look at the set up of the equipment along with any explanation by the defendant and on that basis draw inference as to what the intended use was. Bearing in mind that the defendants computers would have been seized and the hard drives examined also.

If no computer files are found containing incriminating images or recordings from the camera set-up that in itself would not be proof that the camera was not set up for that purpose. It could mean:

a) That the camera was discovered before they could capture the intended private images. The offence includes setting up the cameras with the intention of capturing those images, it doesn't state the perpetrator must be successful in the act.

b) The accused has managed to hide the images captured. I'm sure that wouldn't be too hard to do.

If there are no images found which can be presented as evidence, that will no doubt go partway towards providing atleast some reasonable doubt. Other evidence to be considered would be how the cameras were positioned. Were they set up to frame the bed, rather than doors and windows as might be expected of legitimate security cameras? If the host claims to be concerned about having items stolen by guests, is it not reasonable to expect he should not be leaving valuable items in a rental property?

I also imagine the justice would also indicate that giving too much benefit of the doubt in allowing hosts/landlords to set-up cameras in bedrooms and bathrooms for "security" would be setting a dangerous precedent.

[LLPunting]

If no computer files are found containing incriminating images or recordings from the camera set-up that in itself would not be proof that the camera was not set up for that purpose. It could mean:

a) That the camera was discovered before they could capture the intended private images. The offence includes setting up the cameras with the intention of capturing those images, it doesn't state the perpetrator must be successful in the act.

b) The accused has managed to hide the images captured. I'm sure that wouldn't be too hard to do.

If there are no images found which can be presented as evidence, that will no doubt go partway towards providing atleast some reasonable doubt. Other evidence to be considered would be how the cameras were positioned. Were they set up to frame the bed, rather than doors and windows as might be expected of legitimate security cameras? If the host claims to be concerned about having items stolen by guests, is it not reasonable to expect he should not be leaving valuable items in a rental property?

I also imagine the justice would also indicate that giving too much benefit of the doubt in allowing hosts/landlords to set-up cameras in bedrooms and bathrooms for "security" would be setting a dangerous precedent.

Internet traffic logs from ISP would show pattern of upstream data flow.

[Daveo2006]

Glamour model found secret camera photographer used to film her naked in the bath

External Link/Members Only