The Post Office "Horizon" computer system

[Blackpool Rock]

Bumping this thread as i've just seen for anyone interested that part 1 of a 4 part drama is being shown on ITV tonight at 9.00 - Mr Bates Vs The Post Office with Toby Jones who I quite like

[mr.bluesky]

Should be good,  a terrible injustice these people suffered and many lives ruined because of this. I seem to remember one poor woman committed suicide over it.

[advent2016]

I seem to remember one poor woman committed suicide over it.

How do we know?

There were some stories in the gossip media in 2021 but I haven't seen anything substantial.
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[Adoniron]

Private companies should not be allowed to prosecute people in the criminal courts. If these cases had been handled by CPS they would never have got to court.

[timsussex]

Private companies should not be allowed to prosecute people in the criminal courts. If these cases had been handled by CPS they would never have got to court.

You have more faith in the CPS than I !

while clearly allowing the Post Office to prosecute was appalling there is so much blame to go around here and not just the Post Office senior staff. Sadly any inquiry will be run by lawyers and will never hold any of them to account.

I'm not sure that my blood pressure will stand watching tonight

[Blackpool Rock]

How do we know?

There were some stories in the gossip media in 2021 but I haven't seen anything substantial.
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Is the guy who threw himself in front of a bus not substantial enough for you 

How do you know they didn't kill themselves due to this 

[mr.bluesky]

Is the guy who threw himself in front of a bus not substantial enough for you 

How do you know they didn't kill themselves due to this 

I remember a relative being interviewed on local TV shortly after a family member committed suicide , she said it was down to the stress of being accused of stealing money due to this flawed computer system.

[Adoniron]

You have more faith in the CPS than I !

while clearly allowing the Post Office to prosecute was appalling there is so much blame to go around here and not just the Post Office senior staff. Sadly any inquiry will be run by lawyers and will never hold any of them to account.

I'm not sure that my blood pressure will stand watching tonight

A large part of the problem was Post Office lawyers pursuing their employer's agenda. I would hope independent lawyers would have been more conscious of their professional obligations.

[timsussex]

A large part of the problem was Post Office lawyers pursuing their employer's agenda. I would hope independent lawyers would have been more conscious of their professional obligations.

while that was certainly a problem;  don't we all deserve a justice system which doesnt allow innocent people to be convicted because of such lawyers being over-zealous or lying depending on your point of view ?

The government, judges and senior Law lords allowed those prosecutions and denied appeals and were at the very least derelict in their duty. The postmasters had their lives destroyed and between them spent hundreds of years in Jail and a few £thousands in compensation doesnt cut it

[Thecunninglinguist]

Private companies should not be allowed to prosecute people in the criminal courts. If these cases had been handled by CPS they would never have got to court.

The CPS can legally take over the management of and decision to prosecute, or not, any criminal case put before a court by any other organisation/person.

[wristjob]

while that was certainly a problem;  don't we all deserve a justice system which doesnt allow innocent people to be convicted because of such lawyers being over-zealous or lying depending on your point of view ?

The government, judges and senior Law lords allowed those prosecutions and denied appeals and were at the very least derelict in their duty. The postmasters had their lives destroyed and between them spent hundreds of years in Jail and a few £thousands in compensation doesnt cut it

The problem seems to be the Judges/Magistrates or whatever allowed the POs system to count as conclusive evidence. Did it never occur to anybody to get it audited and check if it was working correctly? Didn't it even occur to defence lawyers? The reality is every computer system is full of garbage data and bugs and it's incredibly naive to just trust what it says without verifying.

[timsussex]

The CPS can legally take over the management of and decision to prosecute, or not, any criminal case put before a court by any other organisation/person.

and have done so - usually when the prosecution is likely to embarrass the government

[timsussex]

The problem seems to be the Judges/Magistrates or whatever allowed the POs system to count as conclusive evidence. Did it never occur to anybody to get it audited and check if it was working correctly? Didn't it even occur to defence lawyers? The reality is every computer system is full of garbage data and bugs and it's incredibly naive to just trust what it says without verifying.

There was a much more widely held belief at the time that computers were always right.
Unfortunately they are programmed by humans

[Adoniron]

The CPS can legally take over the management of and decision to prosecute, or not, any criminal case put before a court by any other organisation/person.

CPS can take over purely private prosecutions but not those by authorised prosecutors such as HSE, Environment Agency, HMRC, RSPCA and the Post Office.  My point was that as the Post Office (unlike the others) is a private commercial organisation, it should not be allowed to bring prosecutions.

[RedKettle]

CPS can take over purely private prosecutions but not those by authorised prosecutors such as HSE, Environment Agency, HMRC, RSPCA and the Post Office.  My point was that as the Post Office (unlike the others) is a private commercial organisation, it should not be allowed to bring prosecutions.

The Post Office is Government owned. Royal Mail is (now) privately owned.

[advent2016]

Until 2011 The Royal Mail was a Public company
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Post Office
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and mentions the ITV drama
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[Blackpool Rock]

Just been an article on the breakfast news that this drama has brought the issue to a lot more peoples attention and they are quite shocked by what's happened

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[chrishornx]

Until 2011 The Royal Mail was a Public company
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Post Office
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and mentions the ITV drama
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Royal mail was a public corporation until 2011vthen became a private company 

[chrishornx]

CPS can take over purely private prosecutions but not those by authorised prosecutors such as HSE, Environment Agency, HMRC, RSPCA and the Post Office.  My point was that as the Post Office (unlike the others) is a private commercial organisation, it should not be allowed to bring prosecutions.

the post office is not a private commercial organisation, it is government controlled, unlike the royal mail which is a private company

they are two different entities

[mh]

Post Office
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and mentions the ITV drama
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The gits. Encouraging anyone who hasn't come forward to do so, while treating like shit those already proven to be affected.

The few payouts that have been made have even had tax deducted at the highest rate due to the PO dumping it on them in one go without giving tax advice and without topping up to account for tax, as they eventually agreed to do - but not before the self assessment deadline.

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[catweazle]

Read yesterday that Alan Bates declined an MBE, because that bint at the top of the Post Office  kept her OBE - Government didn't rescind it, and she won't return it.  More kudos to him.

[george r]

Read yesterday that Alan Bates declined an MBE, because that bint at the top of the Post Office  kept her OBE - Government didn't rescind it, and she won't return it.  More kudos to him.

yes well done him      and shame on her 

[Blackpool Rock]

Read yesterday that Alan Bates declined an MBE, because that bint at the top of the Post Office  kept her OBE - Government didn't rescind it, and she won't return it.  More kudos to him.

Shows the guy has some integrity unlike her 

[ShadowProclamation]

After the four part drama finishes tonight, there is a documentary about it later in the evening. I have already found out many things about it, that I didn't know before. I can't believe this has been going on for nearly quarter of a century and it's still not over. Interesting seeing Will Mellor in a serious role, after watching him in Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps.

[Blackpool Rock]

After the four part drama finishes tonight, there is a documentary about it later in the evening. I have already found out many things about it, that I didn't know before. I can't believe this has been going on for nearly quarter of a century and it's still not over. Interesting seeing Will Mellor in a serious role, after watching him in Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps.

I don't watch it but didn't he also do strictly a while back 
At least he's not become typecast 

[jackdaw]

Read yesterday that Alan Bates declined an MBE, because that bint at the top of the Post Office  kept her OBE - Government didn't rescind it, and she won't return it.  More kudos to him.

Was thinking “no way” when I read this…because I was thinking of actor Alan Bates. (By coincidence, think he also declined honours…a knighthood in his case (?)…but for different reasons.)

[Blackpool Rock]

He certainly declined honours, but seriously doubt it was because of Post Office scandal, he died in 2003, and pretty sure Horizon system had not been rolled out at that point.

Alan Bates the actor died in 2003 but Alan Bates sub postmaster is still alive and kicking 

Wrong end of the stick or more like wrong stick 

Ha ha just seen you have modified / corrected your post 

[jackdaw]

Alan Bates the actor died in 2003 but Alan Bates sub postmaster is still alive and kicking 

Wrong end of the stick or more like wrong stick 

Just realised that couple of seconds before you replied…and amended my posting. (😂)

[advent2016]

Useful wiki showing timelines etc
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[WARSZAWA16]

Fifty more potential victims have now contacted Lawyers:
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[timsussex]

The Times is reporting that 700 people were wrongly prosecuted and that the Met Police are looking into charging the PO with fraud

2 Fujitsu (who produced the software)  staff who testified may be charged with perjury

[WASA38]

Read yesterday that Alan Bates declined an MBE, because that bint at the top of the Post Office  kept her OBE - Government didn't rescind it, and she won't return it.  More kudos to him.

There is a petition running to demand that Vennells ( ie that bint) be stripped of her CBE. It is currently at about 730,000. When 100, 000 is reached  matters have to be debated in Parliament.
You can sign here:
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[threechilliman]

There is a petition running to demand that Vennells ( ie that bint) be stripped of her CBE. It is currently at about 730,000. When 100, 000 is reached  matters have to be debated in Parliament.
You can sign here:
External Link/Members Only

Vennells will lose her CBE, just give it time......

This PO scandal is a national disgrace in my view. We've known about it for 20 odd years and yet the reality is, govts past and present have done fuck all about it. Incredible really. I suspect those responsible are now shitting themselves as they know, in the not too distant future, the truth will out.

[jackdaw]

Was there any clear explanation in “layman’s terms” what when wrong and how quickly some one at Post Office definitely knew the system was inflating cash balances Subpostmaster were supposed to have?

I’d have thought problem discovery should have been very, very quick.

Bear in mind postmasters using the system had years of experience in completing manual cash accounts, and large majority balanced the old fashioned cash account to the penny for year after year.

I’d have thought any experienced subpostmaster seeing Horizon report say a final cash balance of 5,000 when they only had 3000 would have sat down and done things the “old fashioned way”…I started with 1000 pounds worth of cash, I sold 200 pounds worth of stamps, I paid pensions of 2500, the Post office sent me 3000 cash, etc, etc

Tot up all the weeks transactions item by item…say that suggested final cash of 3000 was right rather than the 5000 was right.The. Then postmaster would know the 5 grand balance was a system error and could prove it.

And any Postal manager listening to the subpostmaster with an open mind would know immediately there was a serious system issue.

Just baffling that it could have gone on year after year.

[RandomGuy99]

Was there any clear explanation in “layman’s terms” what when wrong and how quickly some one at Post Office definitely knew the system was inflating cash balances Subpostmaster were supposed to have?

I’d have thought problem discovery should have been very, very quick.

Bear in mind postmasters using the system had years of experience in completing manual cash accounts, and large majority balanced the old fashioned cash account to the penny for year after year.

I’d have thought any experienced subpostmaster seeing Horizon report say a final cash balance of 5,000 when they only had 3000 would have sat down and done things the “old fashioned way”…I started with 1000 pounds worth of cash, I sold 200 pounds worth of stamps, I paid pensions of 2500, the Post office sent me 3000 cash, etc, etc

Tot up all the weeks transactions item by item…say that suggested final cash of 3000 was right rather than the 5000 was right.The. Then postmaster would know the 5 grand balance was a system error and could prove it.

And any Postal manager listening to the subpostmaster with an open mind would know immediately there was a serious system issue.

Just baffling that it could have gone on year after year.

I think Alan Bates did do it manually and told the Post Office that their system was wrong and refused to sign the paperwork saying there was shortfall. They let him off. Others assumed that the computer must be correct and didn't use alternative methods to prove it was wrong. These people signed the paperwork saying there was no shortfall when theree was, which was a fraudulent act. That's what led to the prosecutions.

If they'd all refused to sign the paperwork early on then they would have to have investigated. They clearly knew something was wrong with the computer system as they had people sign paperwork saying they wouldn't talk about the computer system being at fault.

[jackdaw]

I think Alan Bates did do it manually and told the Post Office that their system was wrong and refused to sign the paperwork saying there was shortfall. They let him off. Others assumed that the computer must be correct and didn't use alternative methods to prove it was wrong. These people signed the paperwork saying there was no shortfall when theree was, which was a fraudulent act. That's what led to the prosecutions.

If they'd all refused to sign the paperwork early on then they would have to have investigated. They clearly knew something was wrong with the computer system as they had people sign paperwork saying they wouldn't talk about the computer system being at fault.

Thanks for info.

[timsussex]

Vennells will lose her CBE, just give it time......

This PO scandal is a national disgrace in my view. We've known about it for 20 odd years and yet the reality is, govts past and present have done fuck all about it. Incredible really. I suspect those responsible are now shitting themselves as they know, in the not too distant future, the truth will out.

Do you really think anyone will be shitting themselves 20 years on - lose a few gongs, a few slapped wrists then back onto the gravy train ?

I would be very very surprised if any of the top bosses in PO or Fujitsu or the lawyers involved get charged despite the hundreds of years they caused people to spend in jail or the suicides they caused

[threechilliman]

Do you really think anyone will be shitting themselves 20 years on - lose a few gongs, a few slapped wrists then back onto the gravy train ?

I would be very very surprised if any of the top bosses in PO or Fujitsu or the lawyers involved get charged despite the hundreds of years they caused people to spend in jail or the suicides they caused

Fancy a bet?

[londonroad]

Do you really think anyone will be shitting themselves 20 years on - lose a few gongs, a few slapped wrists then back onto the gravy train ?

I would be very very surprised if any of the top bosses in PO or Fujitsu or the lawyers involved get charged despite the hundreds of years they caused people to spend in jail or the suicides they caused

Seems to be a head of steam building up. Heard that Paula Vennels is getting a real pasting on some Church social media sites.

[snaitram99]

I think Alan Bates did do it manually and told the Post Office that their system was wrong and refused to sign the paperwork saying there was shortfall. They let him off. Others assumed that the computer must be correct and didn't use alternative methods to prove it was wrong. These people signed the paperwork saying there was no shortfall when theree was, which was a fraudulent act. That's what led to the prosecutions.

If they'd all refused to sign the paperwork early on then they would have to have investigated. They clearly knew something was wrong with the computer system as they had people sign paperwork saying they wouldn't talk about the computer system being at fault.

Based on what was in the drama this week, they couldn't charge him with false accounting as he did not sign a false statement. They did however ruin his livelihood by closing him down, which they could do under the one sided contract. Others put large sums of their own money in to make up what was supposedly a shortfall, until they could no longer afford to do so. It is scandalous that no-one in Post Office management questioned how there were suddenly all these shortages where there hadn't been before.

[wilbers]

It is scandalous that no-one in Post Office management questioned how there were suddenly all these shortages where there hadn't been before.

Even more so in the cases where it was a substantial amount in a day rather than lots of small amounts.  Turnover £1K on a normal day, and then a single day where it says its £3K with a £2K shortfall should stick out like a sore thumb as being wrong.

[RandomGuy99]

Based on what was in the drama this week, they couldn't charge him with false accounting as he did not sign a false statement. They did however ruin his livelihood by closing him down, which they could do under the one sided contract. Others put large sums of their own money in to make up what was supposedly a shortfall, until they could no longer afford to do so. It is scandalous that no-one in Post Office management questioned how there were suddenly all these shortages where there hadn't been before.

I think most people would have said something is wrong here and not kept ploughing money into it, but I guess they felt threatened and like they had no choice.

[advent2016]

It was reported on a Linked-in group  that several companies' HR departments are checking staff who may have been employed by Fujitsu and in particular the Post Office account to see if they may be reputationally damaged by association. No one knows where this might end. I still think a few minor employees may get scapegoated and may get their own miscarriage of justice and compensation paid for by us and the real villains escape with their CBE's intact.

[myothernameis]

We all assume this is a problem with the post office, but it could happen to any person, employed by a company that involves cash transactions

In my work place, major supermarket, it quite common to get told, your till was over or even short of money.  If on Mon till 8 is short of £100, then every employee who worked on that till on Mon, will be investigated.   You will get asked a number of questions, did you check the change given to the customer

On one occasion one of the till was short of £500, and they never found out why the till was short.

Now over the next few months, we expected nation wide, where we will get an overhaul of the checkouts, and new till will be digital screens.  And this will also include new software, which everyone will have to learn to use

[jackdaw]

Do you really think anyone will be shitting themselves 20 years on - lose a few gongs, a few slapped wrists then back onto the gravy train ?

I would be very very surprised if any of the top bosses in PO or Fujitsu or the lawyers involved get charged despite the hundreds of years they caused people to spend in jail or the suicides they caused

Basically I agree with you. One or two of the top bosses may be stripped of “honours”, but no one will lose their pension, no key decision maker will serve jail time.

What will happen is that U.K. tax payer…that poor sod that everyone craps on…will end up funding massive compo payments to the victims.
 
And there may be an incredibly expensive public inquiry…again funded by tax payer…when massively well paid lawyers compile long lists of “lessons for the future”, none of which will change things one iota.

[Doc Holliday]

And there may be an incredibly expensive public inquiry…again funded by tax payer…when massively well paid lawyers compile long lists of “lessons for the future”, none of which will change things one iota.

The inquiry has been underway since I think 2022 and has already produced enough evidence to prompt Police investigations. External Link/Members Only

The documentary has raised the profile of this considerably and momentum is gathering and it is possible some of those involved in the cover up may indeed face prosecution. I agree though that the lawyers will as ever take the Lion's share of any money put aside by the Post Office to deal with compensation and that is already the case.

It is a huge disgrace but isn't the first cover up and won't be the last.

The key thing about this is that all the Postmasters who queried the discrepancies were told repeatedly it was just them and nobody else had experienced it or reported it which was of course not the case.

[Blackpool Rock]

There is a petition running to demand that Vennells ( ie that bint) be stripped of her CBE. It is currently at about 730,000. When 100, 000 is reached  matters have to be debated in Parliament.
You can sign here:
External Link/Members Only

I've just signed it too and it's gone up by about 100K in 24 hours 

[RadioKid]

Why do sp many of the "Elite" fail upwards. Furthermore, why does society close its eyes until there is a TV Show about it.

[GreyDave]

  I signed when there was 250,000 i checked last night and now 700,000

The trouble is there are too many bodies that can Bully and prosecute though legal system with out due dilagnce or fear of repercusions ...TV Licenise ( they do around (1000 a month FFS) RSPCA, Local Authourities Post Office the list is quite long..These start in the Magistrates court and usally the victims plead guilty , as the HORRIFIC COST of defending at 1000-2000 a day Barrister then the Court costs and Prosecutours cost could turn in to a ruinous ammount ... I know I and co worker (if give a guilt plea the week before Crown Court Trail were additional costs would of added to these figures ) 60k fines, 30k prosecution cost and 14k investigation cost PLUS or own 45K legal costs we were moved to Crown Court and ...At the end of our 4 days the Judge threw it out we had no case to answer ...However the Prosection team though out failed to accept this fact and proceded like a Jugganaught ...

We were faced with our legal bill and other expensees totaling around short of 50k but if we had been guilty we were facing Prision and 200k plus it woould of been devestating to both us and our families and busineses all we got back were costs the travel to Court for the Trail ....Its amazing howmany people think you get all your cash spent back YOU DONT !

Read The Secert Barrister s books to see what a selfserving system it is and be Afraid because I thought the same as these guys British justice Ive not done anything wrong ,,, tell the truth and it will stop...Nope te system is like a spiders web creating jobs for years ...Greenfell etal.

This simply would not happen in many parts of the world as the people doing this would recive knocks on their doors from ........

[catweazle]

There is a petition running to demand that Vennells ( ie that bint) be stripped of her CBE. It is currently at about 730,000. When 100, 000 is reached  matters have to be debated in Parliament.
You can sign here:
External Link/Members Only

Although I have signed the 38 degrees petition ( now up to 850000 signatures) this isnt the one which triggers a parliamentary debate.

The man behind this first petition has set up the government petition in the last couple of days. Its currently on hold  while it's "checked " (nothing unusual in that all such petitions get checked in case they're silly or pointless). Once released I'm guessing it'll quickly rocket.