Chinese traffickers / drug dealers found guilty

[scutty brown]

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Couple dubbed ‘Big Brother and Mimi’ face jail for sex and drugs ring at Marylebone and Kensington brothels

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A
married couple who ran brothels in Kensington and Marylebone for victims of human trafficking to work as prostitutes are facing jail. 

Wai Tsang, 52, and Wenwen Pan, 40, used threats of violence to force the women into working around the clock as sex workers, only allowing them out of their rooms to be ferried to homes and hotel rooms for “outcalls” with clients. 

The couple ordered the women who had been stripped of their passports to sell drugs including cocaine and crystal meth to customers. 

The brothels – masquerading as massage parlours – were exposed when one of the women walked into a police station to say she had been sold into the sex trade by her husband to clear a gambling debt. 

She said Tsang – dubbed “Big Brother” – had driven her to appointments while Pan – nicknamed “Mimi” – arranged the clients at up to £230-a-session.  A
married couple who ran brothels in Kensington and Marylebone for victims of human trafficking to work as prostitutes are facing jail. 

Wai Tsang, 52, and Wenwen Pan, 40, used threats of violence to force the women into working around the clock as sex workers, only allowing them out of their rooms to be ferried to homes and hotel rooms for “outcalls” with clients. 

The couple ordered the women who had been stripped of their passports to sell drugs including cocaine and crystal meth to customers. 

The brothels – masquerading as massage parlours – were exposed when one of the women walked into a police station to say she had been sold into the sex trade by her husband to clear a gambling debt. 

She said Tsang – dubbed “Big Brother” – had driven her to appointments while Pan – nicknamed “Mimi” – arranged the clients at up to £230-a-session. 
The woman said Pan had torn out her hair, kicked her, and threatened to kill her family when she once refused to sell drugs to a customer.
Tsang and Pan forced her to provide sexual services for up to ten customers a day, and she was confined to her room at the High Street Kensington brothel unless being driven to an appointment. 

She eventually broke free in July 2019 and went to police, before picking Tsang out of a identity parade as one of her tormentors. 
Tsang and Pan forced her to provide sexual services for up to ten customers a day, and she was confined to her room at the High Street Kensington brothel unless bein driven to an appointment. 

She eventually broke free in July 2019 and went to police, before picking Tsang out of a identity parade as one of her tormentors. 
Tsang and Pan were found guilty at Isleworth crown court yesterday of conspiracy to commit human trafficking, controlling prostitution for gain and possession of criminal property for gain.

Pan was also convicted by a jury of two counts of possession of Class A drugs with intent to supply.

“Tsang and Pan were part of a conspiracy directing and controlling the activities of sex workers. They had absolutely no regard for the wellbeing of the women they controlled. They dehumanised them and treated them as objects for their own personal financial gain”, said PC Sam Bhangu, one of the investigating officers.

“The victim was controlled by this couple for years. She was forced to have sex with multiple men a day and she was even subject to violence and terrifying threats if Tsang and Pan were unhappy with her. She was trapped in this nightmare for months on end because she was in genuine fear of her own life and the lives of her loved ones.

“However, in the end she found the courage to go to the police, which freed her from Tsang and Pan’s toxic grasp and now sees them facing a lengthy stint behind bars.”

Both Tsang and Pan were remanded in custody until sentencing on January 22 next year.

A married couple have been convicted after trafficking women in and around the UK with a view to exploit them by forcing them to be sex workers.

Wai Tsang, 52, and Wenwen Pan, 40, both of St Mary’s Terrace, Westminster, were found guilty of conspiracy to commit human trafficking, controlling prostitution for gain and possession of criminal property for gain.

Pan was also found guilty of two counts of possession of a Class A drug with intent to supply.

In July 2019, a woman aged in her 30s attended Kensington Police Station and told officers that she had been trafficked to England from China in December 2015 and made to work as a sex worker.

The court heard that she came to England as her husband owed a gambling debt in China. It was agreed between them that she would travel to the UK, as those her husband had the debt with were chasing her for it too as his wife.

Her husband told her that his friend would collect her from London Heathrow Airport and that she would be provided with food and accommodation.

She landed in the UK in December 2015 and was met at the airport by her husband’s friend.

While she was sleeping, the husband’s friend entered her room and raped her. He also took her travel documents.

It was then made clear to her that her husband had sold her and she had to make money for the people who now controlled her by having sex with men.

She was taken to other locations and had to provide sexual services – sometimes with up to 10 men a day.

The victim stayed at an address in High Street Kensington where she was made to work as a sex worker. This property was managed by a Chinese man and woman. The victim referred to the couple as ‘Big Brother’ and ‘Mimi’ – later established to be Tsang and Pan.

Tsang was the main driver who drove the victim to “outcalls”, which is when she was taken to clients’ houses or hotel rooms.

The victim was not allowed to leave her room apart from when she was taken to outcalls.

Pan would give the victim instructions via a messaging application about a client, the address, what they wanted, what was expected, the fees that should be charged and if ‘Big Brother’ was on his way to collect her.

Each booking ranged in price from approximately £120 to £230 and the money had to be given to Tsang.

The victim was also told to sell drugs to clients. Pan would tell her what drug the client wanted and to give it to the client when he arrived.

[acer123]

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Couple dubbed ‘Big Brother and Mimi’ face jail for sex and drugs ring at Marylebone and Kensington brothels

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Appalling people. Agony and misery they caused.

[Home Alone]

The bastards!

Hope there will be some grounds for deportation the day after their sentence ends.🤞

[Corus Boy]

The bastards!

Hope there will be some grounds for deportation the day after their sentence ends.🤞

Why not deport them straight away and save all the imprisonment costs?

[Jonestown]

Anyone used or know of a Chinese brothel on High Street Kensington ?

There was a flat used by WhatsApp or WeChat girls in a side turning opposite the Royal Garden Hotel a few years back, thats the only one I can think of.

[Eeyore]

Just a few questions to those who have more knowledge than me on the specific Chinese Brothel set-ups all over the UK.

1: On the few occasions I’ve used these places sometimes when you hand over the cash the wg puts it away in a drawer or such like but occasionally the wg has immediately passed the money over to the lady boss.
Does the last example confirm the wg might be working against her will ?

2: Why do wgs always only stay a week or two before being moved on, sometimes by train to places far away all over the UK ?

3: Are the majority of Chinese wgs full time doing the job or is it usually just a case of supplementing their income ?

4: As I’ve said my limited experience in these establishments has been favourable. Friendly, informative ladies running the house/flat and the same regards the wg which has never given me cause for concern.
Am i being duped, are the majority of these places a cover for criminal activity while also controlling the wgs ?

I’ve asked these questions because I genuinely don’t know the answers yet have always wondered especially when reading some of the articles on this forum.

[scutty brown]

Just a few questions to those who have more knowledge than me on the specific Chinese Brothel set-ups all over the UK.

1: On the few occasions I’ve used these places sometimes when you hand over the cash the wg puts it away in a drawer or such like but occasionally the wg has immediately passed the money over to the lady boss.
Does the last example confirm the wg might be working against her will ?

Possibly. Its impossible to be certain and they'll never trust you enough to tell you. But its a good indicator

2: Why do wgs always only stay a week or two before being moved on, sometimes by train to places far away all over the UK ?

To provide variety to punters
To make it hard for the police to track them
To make it difficult for the girls to make friends / develop contacts with people who might help them escape

3: Are the majority of Chinese wgs full time doing the job or is it usually just a case of supplementing their income ?

Mostly full time.
Some here voluntarily on tourist / student visas working illegally
Some illegal immigrants
Some as indentured workers paying off loans
Some as simple slaves trafficked / blackmailed / physically forced to work

4: As I’ve said my limited experience in these establishments has been favourable. Friendly, informative ladies running the house/flat and the same regards the wg which has never given me cause for concern.
Am i being duped, are the majority of these places a cover for criminal activity while also controlling the wgs ?

Don't underestimate the level of indoctrination forced on some of these girls.
Detailed step-by-step training in achieving male satisfaction, carried out through repetitive rape to break the girls mentally, along with training techniques akin to dog training: a good fuck with a happy smile is rewarded with food. The diet is usually pot noodles.
And yes, they are trained to be happy and smiley

I’ve asked these questions because I genuinely don’t know the answers yet have always wondered especially when reading some of the articles on this forum.

I hope that answers your questions

[Eeyore]

Thanks for the detailed reply, appreciated, although the answer to q4 was a bit shocking.

[scutty brown]

Just to add to the above.
Not all Chinese places are involved in trafficking or slavery but large majority of them are. Over the last four years or so the number of Chinese massage sites in the UK has grown exponentially, seemingly tied to Chinese mainland crime groups. Its a matter of national concern - the parlours provide an easy moneylaundering route for other criminal activities such as drug and people smuggling.

[scutty brown]

Thanks for the detailed reply, appreciated, although the answer to q4 was a bit shocking.

Many  EE gangs do the same, just not as efficiently

[Tecova]

Many  EE gangs do the same, just not as efficiently

Given your answer to Q4 is essentially what they are doing to the Uighurs, is this a specific Chinese tactic or any old scumbag tactic to break the will of people?

[Marsh Mitch]

Possibly. Its impossible to be certain and they'll never trust you enough to tell you. But its a good indicator
To provide variety to punters
To make it hard for the police to track them
To make it difficult for the girls to make friends / develop contacts with people who might help them escape
Mostly full time.
Some here voluntarily on tourist / student visas working illegally
Some illegal immigrants
Some as indentured workers paying off loans
Some as simple slaves trafficked / blackmailed / physically forced to work

Don't underestimate the level of indoctrination forced on some of these girls.
Detailed step-by-step training in achieving male satisfaction, carried out through repetitive rape to break the girls mentally, along with training techniques akin to dog training: a good fuck with a happy smile is rewarded with food. The diet is usually pot noodles.
And yes, they are trained to be happy and smiley

I hope that answers your questions

4
Ohh my .... what about the women in oriental Massage Parlours ? These women are not “pros”.
Are these women subjected to similar trainings ? 

[tynetunnel]

Thanks as always to Scutty B for his well informed posts on such matters. For me as much as the idea of trying a Chinese girl appeals - and some look amazing - I’d never want to risk participating in something where she could be being forced or coerced.

[scutty brown]

4
Ohh my .... what about the women in oriental Massage Parlours ? These women are not “pros”.
Are these women subjected to similar trainings ?

If by "oriental" you mean Thai, then I've never heard of a case in this country - although that doesn't mean a lot. There are some issues with some Thai and Filipiino parlours, but that tends to be more matters of debt bondage for young girls, and illegally low pay rates

[scutty brown]

Given your answer to Q4 is essentially what they are doing to the Uighurs, is this a specific Chinese tactic or any old scumbag tactic to break the will of people?

Something that predates recorded history. It just happens to be now used commercially.
As I said above, some EE gangs also do it

[Marsh Mitch]

If by "oriental" you mean Thai, then I've never heard of a case in this country - although that doesn't mean a lot. There are some issues with some Thai and Filipiino parlours, but that tends to be more matters of debt bondage for young girls, and illegally low pay rates

Chinese I meant actually

[The Owl]

Another sobering post by Scutty Brown that reminds me to stick to my strict selection process for when I book escorts.

[scutty brown]

Chinese I meant actually

Most Chinese places are involved in this one way or another. Sometimes directly controlled by organised crime gangs, sometimes owned locally (often by the daughters of the local chinese chip shop) but almost always the working girls are rented from traffickers.
The shop management may be free, but not the staff

[Jonestown]

Most Chinese places are involved in this one way or another. Sometimes directly controlled by organised crime gangs, sometimes owned locally (often by the daughters of the local chinese chip shop) but almost always the working girls are rented from traffickers.
The shop management may be free, but not the staff

Where's your evidence for all that ?

you making things up again ?

[snaitram99]

Most Chinese places are involved in this one way or another. Sometimes directly controlled by organised crime gangs, sometimes owned locally (often by the daughters of the local chinese chip shop) but almost always the working girls are rented from traffickers.
The shop management may be free, but not the staff

So how did you ensure that the Chinese girls in your reviews were free agents?

[s0whatsnew?]

Just to add to the above.
Not all Chinese places are involved in trafficking or slavery but large majority of them are. Over the last four years or so the number of Chinese massage sites in the UK has grown exponentially, seemingly tied to Chinese mainland crime groups. Its a matter of national concern - the parlours provide an easy moneylaundering route for other criminal activities such as drug and people smuggling.

Just to add to this, kidnapping of young girls and trafficking into the forced sex trade happens just as much inside China itself.  The huge number of local dialects and customs means that the girls can feel that they're in a foreign country just as easily as if they were in England.  From the POV of the gangs involved, there's no difference between China and the west.

[petermisc]

Ohh my .... what about the women in oriental Massage Parlours ? These women are not “pros”.
Are these women subjected to similar trainings ?

It is almost impossible to tell for certain.  How did a poor girl from China (or wherever) get the money and resources to get to the UK, get accommodation, etc?  How did she get a visa?

My rule of thumb is that the less control a girl has over what she is doing, the more likely it is that she is being trafficked or subject to some form of coercion. 

[Paris69]

Where's your evidence for all that ?

you making things up again ?

I'm afraid he's not making it up...
I'm not sure what evidence Scutty can provide; i know i can provide more than enough but i have no intention.
You can either believe this or not...

[Fuggedaboutit]

The whole thread amply illustrates why I tend to stick to independent (so far as I am aware) British WGs (with the odd Polish one thrown in). Obvs I don't think anyone on here would knowingly/intentionally see a trafficked SP, but why increase the risk....?

[Jomoore]

I find the whole thread a worrying eye-opener and huge disappointment.  I've used several Chinese places over the years and naively never suspected anything of this sort.  Apart from what's already been stated, are there any clues to help distinguish between the places where trafficking takes place and the more legit places?

[val33]

All the local Chinese takeaways in my region pay extortion/protection money to the Triads (my best mate is from Hong Kong and although not involved, knows very well the goings on). The Triads are also involved in insurance scams and money laundering, often through supermarkets/food stores, but not so much drug trafficking - that business has been largely stolen by Eastern Europeans. A lot of the Chinese women working in brothels are visa overstayers - it's become increasingly difficult to smuggle in people illegally, so the Triads organise student visas to bogus colleges (often under the guise of learning English, which the Home Office nearly always approves visas for). As has been pointed out above, Chinese women can seem the most friendly and supportive of their work, and seem "free" by having access to their phones and moving between cities, but the level of control over them is incredible and most had no idea they'd be forced to have sex for money - they know their student visa is fake, but before coming over they expected to work as cleaners, or in restaurants. They have little choice but to continue working otherwise they know they'll get reported and possibly deported, with thousands of pounds of debt. With thousands of Hong Kongers expected to come to the UK on the new visa-regime, Triad presence will increase significantly and there'll be bloodbath in years to come between rival Chinese gangs.

In contrast, Thai women/brothels are quite different. Nearly all were involved in prostitution in Thailand before coming over (and they know they'll be doing it in the UK, so they're not really trafficked, despite enlisting the help of organised crime groups). They come on student/tourist visas arranged largely by the crime groups, but do not overstay, going home after 6 or 12 months to see family, before reapplying for a new visa and coming back. They're also not subjected to the same level of control, being able to choose where they work, how many clients they see etc.

[LLPunting]

All the local Chinese takeaways in my region pay extortion/protection money to the Triads (my best mate is from Hong Kong and although not involved, knows very well the goings on). The Triads are also involved in insurance scams and money laundering, often through supermarkets/food stores, but not so much drug trafficking - that business has been largely stolen by Eastern Europeans. A lot of the Chinese women working in brothels are visa overstayers - it's become increasingly difficult to smuggle in people illegally, so the Triads organise student visas to bogus colleges (often under the guise of learning English, which the Home Office nearly always approves visas for). As has been pointed out above, Chinese women can seem the most friendly and supportive of their work, and seem "free" by having access to their phones and moving between cities, but the level of control over them is incredible and most had no idea they'd be forced to have sex for money - they know their student visa is fake, but before coming over they expected to work as cleaners, or in restaurants. They have little choice but to continue working otherwise they know they'll get reported and possibly deported, with thousands of pounds of debt. With thousands of Hong Kongers expected to come to the UK on the new visa-regime, Triad presence will increase significantly and there'll be bloodbath in years to come between rival Chinese gangs.

In contrast, Thai women/brothels are quite different. Nearly all were involved in prostitution in Thailand before coming over (and they know they'll be doing it in the UK, so they're not really trafficked, despite enlisting the help of organised crime groups). They come on student/tourist visas arranged largely by the crime groups, but do not overstay, going home after 6 or 12 months to see family, before reapplying for a new visa and coming back. They're also not subjected to the same level of control, being able to choose where they work, how many clients they see etc.

Interesting points raised.  That said prostitution is rife in China and whilst there will always be "innocents" who are entrapped there are millions upon millions of world-weary WGs in the cities who will know the score and journey to richer countries for more punter plunder.  The situation in Thailand is more public only through being published by the tourism media.

My own experience across the London parlour scene is that there are very few where the working matrons are virtually if completely free to trade.  The weekly turnaround clip joints with WGs who are uniformly poor at service are about the only certain ones to avoid.  Parlours (less so flats) with girls on regular rota are perhaps a bit easier on the conscience.
Organised crime, regardless of national origin will always seek to exploit sex workers beyond trafficking them or bringing them as slaves.

[JayEZ2K]

Where's your evidence for all that ?

you making things up again?

Probably. Seems to be a few fantasist experts on this thread. The bigger their claims, it's more and more obvious the less they know. 

While that's a dire story, extrapolating that to "the majority" of places not only unfounded, it goes against actual evidence.

Broad claims that Chinese girls in B&S places are likely trafficked are totally false and continues to be propagated by clueless people, time and time again. I state this not as someone who dismisses the claims, but the exact opposite. After claims about trafficking and slavery, which I had taken seriously, I had investigated myself. What I found from visiting many, many locations and meeting many, many girls that they are totally free to choose if they want to work, and when and where to work, for which they arrange their own travel; they have their own personal phone and constant line to the outside world, talking privately with their friends and family back home daily, and if they choose to give out their personal contact info, with clients or new friends; they take holidays to travel, sight-see, and shop around the UK; they meet up with friends and have dinner parties, or go out for dinners and entertainment (rides, bowling, etc); they decide for themselves when they will return to their home country, and again they arrange their own travel, and then I see that they've returned home safely to spend time with their families - usually parents and often times they surprisingly have children too. If the first trip was a success, then often times they will return to the UK again. This is not from "anecdotal chats" under some watchful eye, and these were not communication under duress, but from private and personal communications that have spanned years and countries, both here and after they've returned home.

The reality is that they freely work because this is the fastest way to generate significant income, which many will put towards improving their lives back home. All of this is evidence based, not conjecture. 

Additionally, I am not oblivious or insensitive to actual cases of trafficking. I have in fact reported to authorities before regarding trafficking victim. In this case it wasn't a Chinese worker, but a miserable young Romanian.

...most had no idea they'd be forced to have sex for money... they expected to work as cleaners, or in restaurants. They have little choice but to continue working...

Bullocks. Total bullocks.

[scutty brown]

Probably. Seems to be a few fantasist experts on this thread. The bigger their claims, it's more and more obvious the less they know. 

While that's a dire story, extrapolating that to "the majority" of places not only unfounded, it goes against actual evidence.

Broad claims that Chinese girls in B&S places are likely trafficked are totally false and continues to be propagated by clueless people, time and time again. I state this not as someone who dismisses the claims, but the exact opposite. After claims about trafficking and slavery, which I had taken seriously, I had investigated myself. What I found from visiting many, many locations and meeting many, many girls that they are totally free to choose if they want to work, and when and where to work, for which they arrange their own travel; they have their own personal phone and constant line to the outside world, talking privately with their friends and family back home daily, and if they choose to give out their personal contact info, with clients or new friends; they take holidays to travel, sight-see, and shop around the UK; they meet up with friends and have dinner parties, or go out for dinners and entertainment (rides, bowling, etc); they decide for themselves when they will return to their home country, and again they arrange their own travel, and then I see that they've returned home safely to spend time with their families - usually parents and often times they surprisingly have children too. If the first trip was a success, then often times they will return to the UK again. This is not from "anecdotal chats" under some watchful eye, and these were not communication under duress, but from private and personal communications that have spanned years and countries, both here and after they've returned home.

The reality is that they freely work because this is the fastest way to generate significant income, which many will put towards improving their lives back home. All of this is evidence based, not conjecture. 

Additionally, I am not oblivious or insensitive to actual cases of trafficking. I have in fact reported to authorities before regarding trafficking victim. In this case it wasn't a Chinese worker, but a miserable young Romanian.


Bullocks. Total bullocks.

You are so, so wrong.
Virtually every time this subject comes up you do your damnest to trivialise what experienced people say. You boast about how many girls you speak to........well it must have been pretty trivial conversations because when you get them under the correct circumstances the story changes. What I and others have said here is real and factual.

[snaitram99]

Scutty, I raised this question earlier:

So how did you ensure that the Chinese girls in your reviews were free agents?

Given your expressed views re Chinese, what is your answer? 

[val33]

Bullocks. Total bullocks.

Sorry to have riled you up, but I wouldn't expect most people to understand how the criminal underworld works, especially the very secretive Chinese, and the reality hits hard. I used to work as part of an undercover team investigating it - I'm not going to say any more on the matter but I do know what I'm talking about.

[maxxblue]

Bullocks. Total bullocks.

Just wondering if you mean 'bollocks', as 'bullocks' is a bit out of context (unless I am missing something)? 

[maxxblue]

Sorry to have riled you up, but I wouldn't expect most people to understand how the criminal underworld works, especially the very secretive Chinese, and the reality hits hard. I used to work as part of an undercover team investigating it - I'm not going to say any more on the matter but I do know what I'm talking about.

I must say that this makes you sound a bit like a Walter Mitty character. 

[val33]

I must say that this makes you sound a bit like a Walter Mitty character. 

20 years since I left the force, I'm a boring old fellow now!

[scutty brown]

Scutty, I raised this question earlier:

Given your expressed views re Chinese, what is your answer? 

Its difficult and only possible after the meeting has started.
Lots of partial clues you can pick up on.
Does the girl answer her own phone?
What sort of property/location?
Is there a minder on the door?
Who takes the money? If the girl offers extras does she hide the cash?
How is she dressed - any sign of a change of clothes or outdoor clothes (I've known some girls to have their clothing taken to stop them escaping)
Diet - is she underweight? Any sign of food in the kitchen (they're often fed instant packet food)
How good is their English? How willing are they to communicate? Will they give you the number of their personal phone?
What part of China is she from? For instance a farm girl from Sichuan is more suspect than a girl from Shanghai
Attitude - morose and lethargic? Conversely being overhappy and overwelcoming can indicate intimidation and forced "training"
Hours worked: 9-5 or 24/7?
Is she long term resident or on a weekly / monthly rotation?
How advertised? Do online profiles fit a known pattern?

Just a few of the many things to consider. Taken in isolation they're meaningless, taken together they can be good indicators

[LLPunting]

Probably. Seems to be a few fantasist experts on this thread. The bigger their claims, it's more and more obvious the less they know. 

While that's a dire story, extrapolating that to "the majority" of places not only unfounded, it goes against actual evidence.

Broad claims that Chinese girls in B&S places are likely trafficked are totally false and continues to be propagated by clueless people, time and time again. I state this not as someone who dismisses the claims, but the exact opposite. After claims about trafficking and slavery, which I had taken seriously, I had investigated myself. What I found from visiting many, many locations and meeting many, many girls that they are totally free to choose if they want to work, and when and where to work, for which they arrange their own travel; they have their own personal phone and constant line to the outside world, talking privately with their friends and family back home daily, and if they choose to give out their personal contact info, with clients or new friends; they take holidays to travel, sight-see, and shop around the UK; they meet up with friends and have dinner parties, or go out for dinners and entertainment (rides, bowling, etc); they decide for themselves when they will return to their home country, and again they arrange their own travel, and then I see that they've returned home safely to spend time with their families - usually parents and often times they surprisingly have children too. If the first trip was a success, then often times they will return to the UK again. This is not from "anecdotal chats" under some watchful eye, and these were not communication under duress, but from private and personal communications that have spanned years and countries, both here and after they've returned home.

The reality is that they freely work because this is the fastest way to generate significant income, which many will put towards improving their lives back home. All of this is evidence based, not conjecture. 

Additionally, I am not oblivious or insensitive to actual cases of trafficking. I have in fact reported to authorities before regarding trafficking victim. In this case it wasn't a Chinese worker, but a miserable young Romanian.


Bullocks. Total bullocks.

How do you do it?
Do you speak Mandarin or use the translator apps?  How do you gain so many girls' trust?

It's already been discussed in other threads that there are differences between trafficking, coercion, desperation, greed and slavery as avenues by which women enter into the UK sex trade.  It is possible to enjoy many freedoms whilst trapped in your obligations to debt, greed and ambition, none of these freedoms or motives guarantee good service delivery to punters.

The "business model" governing most Chinese parlour girls seems counter-intuitive to prosperous business.  Even if Chinese are culturally disposed towards opportunistic money making, seeking prosperity is also part of their driver.  For the girls who are truly free it should be "find a place where you can turn a good rate of tricks with untroublesome punters and stay" and yes some of those are known (bb status notwithstanding for some).  Moving to new places every week where repeats are unlikely with strangers gives plenty of cause to become jaded and thereby less profitable as the reputation of the address/operation is still determined by the service levels and friendliness of the previous workers.  The only client who delights in this is the deluded optimist who thinks next week the girl will be better, he's the worst and most troubled of gamblers (and I have been him).

[LLPunting]

Sorry to have riled you up, but I wouldn't expect most people to understand how the criminal underworld works, especially the very secretive Chinese, and the reality hits hard. I used to work as part of an undercover team investigating it - I'm not going to say any more on the matter but I do know what I'm talking about.

Your insights are welcome as long as one of your revelations isn't "I run HoD". 

[LLPunting]

Its difficult and only possible after the meeting has started.
Lots of partial clues you can pick up on.
Does the girl answer her own phone?
What sort of property/location?
Is there a minder on the door?
Who takes the money? If the girl offers extras does she hide the cash?
How is she dressed - any sign of a change of clothes or outdoor clothes (I've known some girls to have their clothing taken to stop them escaping)
Diet - is she underweight? Any sign of food in the kitchen (they're often fed instant packet food)
How good is their English? How willing are they to communicate? Will they give you the number of their personal phone?
What part of China is she from? For instance a farm girl from Sichuan is more suspect than a girl from Shanghai
Attitude - morose and lethargic? Conversely being overhappy and overwelcoming can indicate intimidation and forced "training"
Hours worked: 9-5 or 24/7?
Is she long term resident or on a weekly / monthly rotation?
How advertised? Do online profiles fit a known pattern?

Just a few of the many things to consider. Taken in isolation they're meaningless, taken together they can be good indicators

Indeed Scutty, there are so many possible criteria that have to be read in cohesion for each individual case.  Very few quarantees of free and self-determining and even if they pass muster from this direction of analysis, they aren't eliminated from being on the controlling side.

[LLPunting]

20 years since I left the force, I'm a boring old fellow now!

Oh God!  You live near MK don't you! 

[JayEZ2K]

Sorry to have riled you up, but I wouldn't expect most people to understand how the criminal underworld works, especially the very secretive Chinese, and the reality hits hard. I used to work as part of an undercover team investigating it - I'm not going to say any more on the matter but I do know what I'm talking about.

No, you clearly don't. I'm calling 100% bollocks. You stated "...most had no idea they'd be forced to have sex for money... they expected to work as cleaners, or in restaurants. They have little choice but to continue working...".

Bollocks. I have a large enough sample size to know that the girls know exactly what they are traveling here for. And as stated, they are free to work when and where they want, and they return home when they want. It's not as complicated as all this silly underworld triad fantasist stuff. Quite simply they willingly choose to work because they can make make good money.

Its difficult and only possible after the meeting has started.
Lots of partial clues you can pick up on.
Does the girl answer her own phone?
What sort of property/location?
Is there a minder on the door?
Who takes the money? If the girl offers extras does she hide the cash?
How is she dressed - any sign of a change of clothes or outdoor clothes (I've known some girls to have their clothing taken to stop them escaping)
Diet - is she underweight? Any sign of food in the kitchen (they're often fed instant packet food)
How good is their English? How willing are they to communicate? Will they give you the number of their personal phone?
What part of China is she from? For instance a farm girl from Sichuan is more suspect than a girl from Shanghai
Attitude - morose and lethargic? Conversely being overhappy and overwelcoming can indicate intimidation and forced "training"
Hours worked: 9-5 or 24/7?
Is she long term resident or on a weekly / monthly rotation?
How advertised? Do online profiles fit a known pattern?

That list is ridiculous, and shows your ignorance on the matter. If people want me to waste my time later I could debunk that piece by piece, and show your ignorance on this matter.

How do you do it?

I took all these allegations seriously when I first started punting oriental places several years back, and found that the deeper I dug and the more I learned, the clearer it is that many women I've meet are free and working of their own accord. All these so called experts are just fakes, outsiders gossiping about something they no nothing about. Ultimately I suspect it's due to the language and cultural barrier tied to fanaticism about triads and the orient that make people speculate from the outside.

[Jonestown]

I used to work as part of an undercover team investigating it - I'm not going to say any more on the matter but I do know what I'm talking about.

FFS, not another one: perhaps admin would consider a separate secure section on the forum for undercover fantasists where they could exchange hot tips in private.

[Paris69]

.

[Paris69]

No, you clearly don't. I'm calling 100% bollocks. You stated "...most had no idea they'd be forced to have sex for money... they expected to work as cleaners, or in restaurants. They have little choice but to continue working...".

Bollocks. I have a large enough sample size to know that the girls know exactly what they are traveling here for. And as stated, they are free to work when and where they want, and they return home when they want. It's not as complicated as all this silly underworld triad fantasist stuff. Quite simply they willingly choose to work because they can make make good money.

That list is ridiculous, and shows your ignorance on the matter. If people want me to waste my time later I could debunk that piece by piece, and show your ignorance on this matter.


I took all these allegations seriously when I first started punting oriental places several years back, and found that the deeper I dug and the more I learned, the clearer it is that many women I've meet are free and working of their own accord. All these so called experts are just fakes, outsiders gossiping about something they no nothing about. Ultimately I suspect it's due to the language and cultural barrier tied to fanaticism about triads and the orient that make people speculate from the outside.

So, you started several years ago.... Let's say 5 years ago. At 2 girls a week, every week for 5 years that's 520.... I'd say that is a statistically miniscule number in comparison to how many Chinese girls have worked in the UK over a 5 year period. And i doubt you have spent 520 times say £100 per meet (as they certainly weren't gonna give up their time for free.... but i might be wrong; you might have spent that amount)....
So on a whim you spent at least £52,000
And obviously you must have chosen girls/parlours that okayed this, which means you would have been in places/with people who likely weren’t trafficked.
btw… in most surveys; confirmation bias is our predominant way of working.
‘I believe this to be true’… so guess what ‘our research’ evaluates out at? Yep…. it agrees with what we originally thought.

What i do agree with you on is people popping up on here talking about Triads, ‘I have a mate who’ etc etc (yeah, Triads do exist) and trying to make out they have 'inside knowledge' of them. They don't. They are fantasists.

Trafficking is a huge problem. We all know of the Chinese/Eastern European’s etc… but other, extremely violent gangs are now here in the UK and are strengthening: Such as in the Vietnamese community.

[Corus Boy]

How do you do it?
Do you speak Mandarin or use the translator apps?  How do you gain so many girls' trust?

It's already been discussed in other threads that there are differences between trafficking, coercion, desperation, greed and slavery as avenues by which women enter into the UK sex trade.  It is possible to enjoy many freedoms whilst trapped in your obligations to debt, greed and ambition, none of these freedoms or motives guarantee good service delivery to punters.

The "business model" governing most Chinese parlour girls seems counter-intuitive to prosperous business.  Even if Chinese are culturally disposed towards opportunistic money making, seeking prosperity is also part of their driver.  For the girls who are truly free it should be "find a place where you can turn a good rate of tricks with untroublesome punters and stay" and yes some of those are known (bb status notwithstanding for some).  Moving to new places every week where repeats are unlikely with strangers gives plenty of cause to become jaded and thereby less profitable as the reputation of the address/operation is still determined by the service levels and friendliness of the previous workers.  The only client who delights in this is the deluded optimist who thinks next week the girl will be better, he's the worst and most troubled of gamblers (and I have been him).

For a good girl I would think that the business model works well.

Receives approx 50% of the fee, the house keeps the rest and covers all bills except the girls travel fees and any fees at her personal base location.

The girl keeps all 'in room' extras.

For good girls the house will have attempted to book her for dates in the coming months, in one shop I used there was a year planner on the wall with girls pencilled in. 

My experience is that Uncle would give you dates for anyone you were particularly inteested in. So repeat bookings were possible albeit not week  by week.

Some shops would have a range of uniforms that the girls could use, a saved expense and less baggage to carry about.  Let's face it in the Chinese shops it is pretty much one size fits all.

It has appeared to me that the girls do seem to have some freedom of choice/movement.  One girl told me that she would not be retuning to Cardiff as there was not enough business.

As someone mentioned above, girls were able to 'collect' a punters number. 

I have had a girl call me and ask if I'd take her out for breakfast but that we must be back before the shop opened at 10am.

Another phoned me late in the evening and asked if I would come and pick her up, right now, 10pm.  She was crying, I said yes, no questions asked.  I arrived and Uncle was in a very bad mood, the girl walked past him with her case, slapped his face, walked past me and called me to follow her!  I knew Uncle quite well, so I shrugged my shoulders and followed the girl, assuming that all would soon become clear.

We went to a 24 hour Maccy D's and it all came out.

Uncle had tried his luck with the girl by going into her room while there were no customers.  Not part of the work contract, so she walked.

Uncle was replaced in the coming months with an Auntie.

Uncle also let slip to me that girls had nicknames, one was known the £2000 pound girl, she was really popular and the house could expect to take 10 punters * 7 days * £30 = £2000.

The girl could equally expect to get and equivalent £2000 plus £10 - £20 extras per punter, plus tips, £1500 ontop of that.

Final bits of information that have come my way;

If you shop in one of the small Chinese Supermarkets they have a selection of 'Free' Chinese newspapers and some that you have to buy.  They contain small ads, including a selection for those seeking girls to work in the entertainment, massage, male companions.  The are ina block, just like those offering escorts in British local papers.  Mostly they are in Chinese, some multilingual, some with pictures but all bunched together so not difficult to understand.

When you visit a shop where girls are trafficked, it is vey obvious that something is amiss!  Once on my only Romanian foray and one Chinese shop!

As I am single, unattached with no dependants it was very easy to make a report to Crimestoppers.

[Corus Boy]

Edit of the above;

If you shop in one of the small Chinese Supermarkets they have a selection of 'Free' Chinese newspapers and some that you have to buy.  They contain small ads, including a selection for those seeking girls to work in the entertainment, massage, male companions.  The are in a block, just like those offering escorts in British local papers.  Mostly they are in Chinese, some multilingual, some with pictures but all bunched together so not difficult to understand.

These are Recruitment adverts, for girls to work, not adverts for services!

[LLPunting]

Thanks CB   

I have yet to see or hear of any planner with the girls booked in here in London so things are much better managed in Wales! 

Whether I chatted to shop girls or ones in flats or their management which had weekly turnover none have committed to a known date of return.  I have occasionally been sent pics of girls working that week that have worked before but under new names and none were worth repeating for anything other than an unenthusiastic P&D.

This is of course separate to the places that have a fixed rota, of which there are far too few with much if anything to offer younger than 35.  And as they're very much known shop fronts they have all been shut during lockdown, whilst the ones with no schedule in flats have continued to advertise most weeks this past year.

Time to move to Wales perhaps.

[Corus Boy]

Thanks CB   

I have yet to see or hear of any planner with the girls booked in here in London so things are much better managed in Wales! 

Whether I chatted to shop girls or ones in flats or their management which had weekly turnover none have committed to a known date of return.  I have occasionally been sent pics of girls working that week that have worked before but under new names and none were worth repeating for anything other than an unenthusiastic P&D.

This is of course separate to the places that have a fixed rota, of which there are far too few with much if anything to offer younger than 35.  And as they're very much known shop fronts they have all been shut during lockdown, whilst the ones with no schedule in flats have continued to advertise most weeks this past year.

Time to move to Wales perhaps.

I wouldn't rush, the Chinese scene, in Cardiff, has died as far as I can tell.

It went down hill quickly and at that point I lost interest and my intel.

The bad Uncle described above offered a Text newsletter to regular customers, if you wanted.

So on Monday morning or towards lunchtime you would get a text giving a description and a name, never a photo.

Strangely the girls were 34D, he could never be convinced that some punters like Chinese girls because they were smaller and more petite.  The girls were rarely 34D. LOL

[val33]

Ask yourself this. Why do girls refuse to testify against their traffickers when arrests are made? It's not because they feel innocent and not-trafficked, but because they're under so much control and know the epercussions if they were to testify.

[tynetunnel]

I could debunk that piece by piece, and show your ignorance on this matter.

Please do, it will be fascinating reading since I for one believe that Scutty has insight into this subject

[scutty brown]

this report dates back to 2010, before the recent expansion out of the big cities. The situation now is worse

Half of trafficked sex workers in Uk are Chinese
External Link/Members Only

Half of trafficked sex workers in Uk are Chinese
August 20, 2010 by Samad
London, August 20: Almost half of all women trafficked into Britain and forced into prostitution are Chinese nationals, a police report has said.

A study by British Police found that 17,000 of the 30,000 women involved in the sex trade in Britain are migrants, including a majority from China, Thailand and eastern Europe, Sky News reported.

The report titled “Setting The Record” says that the women forced into the sex industry are made to pay off bonds of up to 30,000 pounds ($46,700) by criminal gangs responsible for the underground trade.

Police investigators spoke to over 200 women to find out the circumstances in which they were living.

The largest number of brothels was found in London (2,103), followed by Yorkshire and the Humber (534), the South East (426) and the West Midlands (342).

“It’s enlightened us in terms of the problems that are associated with the Chinese community and some vulnerabilities that were there,” said Chris Eyre, a police official.

“We’ve seen an increase in the number of southeast Asian women being trafficked into Britain. It has been a significant proportion of the number that have been identified through the research, so it has enlightened us in terms of what faces Chinese women who are trafficked,” he said.

There is a great deal of work going on between the British and Chinese governments to make sure those women who are vulnerable in this respect are protected and supported, he added.

Meanwhile, Immigration Minister Damian Green said that any number of people trafficked into Britain was “unacceptable”.

“It is vital that we re-focus our efforts both at targeting the criminal gangs that trade in this human misery and in helping victims escape and recover from their ordeal,” he said.