Rocky Marciano vs Evander Holyfield in there primes??

[king tarzan]

wow what a great fight that would be..
two relentless durable pressure warriors..

[timsussex]

Probably not - Marciano would get thumped
 ?Reason - my knowledge of boxing is close to zero but
in every sport where a true comparison can be made todays guy would thrash yesterdays guy

While he is undoubtedly one of the great runners of all time no-one would seriously say that Zatopek in his prime could have challenged Mo Farah today Because the times clearly show he would be 100s of metres behind
Or Jesse Owens to beat Bolt

The Escort Mexico I lusted after in my youth had a 0-60 time of 11.5 seconds My current Ford Fiesta (bog standard) will do it in 8.6

Now I know that technology can evolve faster than humans but in EVERY sphere of human achievement todays achievements are higher thats how records work. there may be the occasional blip where someone is so far ahead of his contempories (stand up Bob Beamon) but eventually someone better will come along

In my youth watching international rugby union a try near the touchline was only converted 20% of the time now its nearer 90%

One more example my father always held that Matthews in his prime was greater than any modern footballer - impossible to measure of course but I watched the 1966 world cup final and the thing that impressed me most at the time wasn't Hurst, Moore or the Charltons it was that for 120 mins (no subs remember) Alan Ball ran and ran and ran. I had never seen anything like it  Now I will bet you a pint that his 'heat map' would be substandard for a midfielder in todays premiership.

its romantic to root for Marciano or Bradman or Matthews in sports. You can talk of the genius of Rubens, Rembrandt, Wagner or Beethoven but can you offer any sphere of human activity, which you can quantitatively measure, where yesterdays achievements are greater than todays ?

[king tarzan]

Probably not - Marciano would get thumped
 ?Reason - my knowledge of boxing is close to zero but
in every sport where a true comparison can be made todays guy would thrash yesterdays guy

While he is undoubtedly one of the great runners of all time no-one would seriously say that Zatopek in his prime could have challenged Mo Farah today Because the times clearly show he would be 100s of metres behind
Or Jesse Owens to beat Bolt

The Escort Mexico I lusted after in my youth had a 0-60 time of 11.5 seconds My current Ford Fiesta (bog standard) will do it in 8.6

Now I know that technology can evolve faster than humans but in EVERY sphere of human achievement todays achievements are higher thats how records work. there may be the occasional blip where someone is so far ahead of his contempories (stand up Bob Beamon) but eventually someone better will come along

In my youth watching international rugby union a try near the touchline was only converted 20% of the time now its nearer 90%

One more example my father always held that Matthews in his prime was greater than any modern footballer - impossible to measure of course but I watched the 1966 world cup final and the thing that impressed me most at the time wasn't Hurst, Moore or the Charltons it was that for 120 mins (no subs remember) Alan Ball ran and ran and ran. I had never seen anything like it  Now I will bet you a pint that his 'heat map' would be substandard for a midfielder in todays premiership.

its romantic to root for Marciano or Bradman or Matthews in sports. You can talk of the genius of Rubens, Rembrandt, Wagner or Beethoven but can you offer any sphere of human activity, which you can quantitatively measure, where yesterdays achievements are greater than todays ?

there both heavyweights on the lighter side.. this one is a extremely hard fight to call.. if they had three fights with each other.. 1 win each by points and 1 draw would be fair square..

[Matrix]

Actually, when they compare Jesse Owens to Bolt, then take into account the difference in footwear, the start and the fact that they were running in a pit of ash back then as opposed to a runway/carpet, they find there is a incredibly small difference in performance.

In a lot of cases athletes today have far more advantages but there's still a question about hunger and raw toughness, when compared to more primitive methods of training.

The Rock and Holyfield are definitely 2 of the toughest heavyweights of all time.

[peter purves]

There have been many World Heavyweight Champion Greats any particular reason why you chose this combination??

[king tarzan]

There have been many World Heavyweight Champion Greats any particular reason why you chose this combination??

great fight between the two...

[NIK]

Marciano was well before my time, so I don't really know. However I always remember my old man, who appreciated his boxing, didn't rate Marciano at all. Although his unbeaten record makes him look the best of the lot, my dad reckoned he avoided someone - can't recall who it was. According to my dad  Jack Dempsey was the best heavyweight followed by Joe Louis. He also didn't rate Ali initially, thinking him an overrated big head, as many people did at the time, but he eventually came round to recognising Ali's greatness. But going back to Marciano he never rated him in the slightest, which I always though weird when I saw Marciano's record. However I never saw Marciano fight. Or Dempsey or Louis come to that.

[Matrix]

External Link/Members Only

One of the best ko punches.

[Happylad]

Why particularly Evander Holyfield?  Probably the greatest heavyweight so far was Joe Louis.  Yes, I know that Marciano beat Louis, but you must take into account that Louis had retired voluntarily in 1949 and only returned to the ring to raise enough money to pay off his Tax problems, and when he met Marciano in 1951 he was 37 years old.

In my youth I watched many Newsreels of Louis`s fights, and I`m convinced that in his prime he would have walloped both Marciano and Holyfield - he had a pretty powerful punch of his own and, as I remember, almost of his fights ended with knock-outs (and there were some pretty big hitters about in those days too).

[king tarzan]

Why particularly Evander Holyfield?  Probably the greatest heavyweight so far was Joe Louis.  Yes, I know that Marciano beat Louis, but you must take into account that Louis had retired voluntarily in 1949 and only returned to the ring to raise enough money to pay off his Tax problems, and when he met Marciano in 1951 he was 37 years old.

In my youth I watched many Newsreels of Louis`s fights, and I`m convinced that in his prime he would have walloped both Marciano and Holyfield - he had a pretty powerful punch of his own and, as I remember, almost of his fights ended with knock-outs (and there were some pretty big hitters about in those days too).

the reason Holyfield he was a small heavyweight as was Marciano..

actually just thinking could even add Jack Dempsey to the mix too!!!👊👊👊👊
all 3 great fighters, to me i envision an all out long lasting brutal brawl..
all 3 great chins, stamina and power (even though Holyfield power way underrated IMHO) and lion hearted till death both fighters..

[Happylad]

the reason Holyfield he was a small heavyweight as was Marciano..

actually just thinking could even add Jack Dempsey to the mix too!!!👊👊👊👊
all 3 great fighters, to me i envision an all out long lasting brutal brawl..
all 3 great chins, stamina and power (even though Holyfield power way underrated IMHO) and lion hearted till death both fighters..

I`m afraid that Jack Dempsey was a little before my time, but I know he was a bit small for a heavyweight, and fought several times as cruiserweight or light heavy. Wasn`t it Dempsey who excused one of his defeats with "Honey, I forgot to duck", which Ronald Reagan used after the failed assassination attempt?  I still stick with Joe Louis, and remember being taken to the cinema especially to watch the newsreels of his fight with our own (Welsh) Tommy Farr - his first defence after he`d taken the title off Braddock.  Farr took him the full 15 rounds and fought so well that  the American audience booed when Louis got the verdict.

Sorry, I seem to have rambled off the point a bit

[king tarzan]

I`m afraid that Jack Dempsey was a little before my time, but I know he was a bit small for a heavyweight, and fought several times as cruiserweight or light heavy. Wasn`t it Dempsey who excused one of his defeats with "Honey, I forgot to duck", which Ronald Reagan used after the failed assassination attempt?  I still stick with Joe Louis, and remember being taken to the cinema especially to watch the newsreels of his fight with our own (Welsh) Tommy Farr - his first defence after he`d taken the title off Braddock.  Farr took him the full 15 rounds and fought so well that  the American audience booed when Louis got the verdict.

Sorry, I seem to have rambled off the point a bit

To me the best Ali.. he beat Frazier, Norton, Shavers, Lyle, Foreman, Liston..in there primes.... all very big murderous punchers..
I also rate Larry Holmes higher than i rate Mike tyson..

[NIK]

Marciano, like Dempsey and indeed Frazier would be considered way to small to be modern heavyweights. Perhaps they would still have beaten plenty but presimably it would have been harder for them.

As  has been said Marciano did beat Joe Louis, but Louis was way past his best by then. Had they met when Louis was at his peak my dad reckoned Louis would have won easily.

Another change in boxing, apart from fighters getting bigger, is that they go on for longer. A boxer can comfortably perform at 35, and in some cases older, now days, but in Louis' day, and even Ali's, they would have usually been regarded as over the hill by then.

[freeze44]

To me the best Ali.. he beat Frazier, Norton, Shavers, Lyle, Foreman, Liston..in there primes.... all very big murderous punchers..
I also rate Larry Holmes higher than i rate Mike tyson..

100% Ali...the greatest not just for skill but the way he was around the ring.

Tyson, in his prime, was pure animal and pretty unbeatable.

[king tarzan]

100% Ali...the greatest not just for skill but the way he was around the ring.

Tyson, in his prime, was pure animal and pretty unbeatable.

Tyson was beatable.. very similar style to Edwin Rosario, and when Julio Cesar Chavez gave Rosario no room to manoeuvre and traded toe to toe with him Rosario was beaten..
I always though that before Tyson was beaten that it would take a fighter to back him up and take control of the fight to beat him, and James Buster Douglas done just that..and also the heavyweights Tyson did beat were of the diminishing calibre at that stage..
In the 90's i think Roddick Bowe and Ray Mercer and even Bert Cooper would of given Tyson a real fight..
Hats off he beat Donovan Razor Ruddock twice.. to give Ruddock a rematch high praise for Mike Tyson's heart and bravery in the ring.

I still believe both in there 20's  Larry Holmes would of beaten Mike Tyson either by points or late round stoppage..
Larry Holmes was pure class..
A young Ali and Holmes fight would of been Ali victorious by points and hard fought points win..
To me shows how good Larry Holmes was and thoroughly under estimated.

[CheeseBoard]

100% Ali...the greatest not just for skill but the way he was around the ring.

Tyson, in his prime, was pure animal and pretty unbeatable.

I may have this wrong of course but didnt Ali cheat against Henry Cooper by cutting his glove so he could recover?

Generally I thought boxers were scared of Tyson before they got into the ring and strategy went out the window.  Holyfield worked out Tysons movements and then countered accordingly. 

[king tarzan]

I may have this wrong of course but didnt Ali cheat against Henry Cooper by cutting his glove so he could recover?

Generally I thought boxers were scared of Tyson before they got into the ring and strategy went out the window.  Holyfield worked out Tysons movements and then countered accordingly.

Angelo Dundee naughty naughty.. Cooper himself was a brute in the ring.. one of his knockouts hammering the bloke on the ropes till he was unconscious is absolutely fantastico to watch..

[Matrix]

I may have this wrong of course but didnt Ali cheat against Henry Cooper by cutting his glove so he could recover?

Generally I thought boxers were scared of Tyson before they got into the ring and strategy went out the window.  Holyfield worked out Tysons movements and then countered accordingly.

Also used illegal smelling salts to bring him to his senses.

[peter purves]

Also used illegal smelling salts to bring him to his senses.

Allegedly!! 

[peter purves]

Marciano, like Dempsey and indeed Frazier would be considered way to small to be modern heavyweights. Perhaps they would still have beaten plenty but presimably it would have been harder for them.

As  has been said Marciano did beat Joe Louis, but Louis was way past his best by then. Had they met when Louis was at his peak my dad reckoned Louis would have won easily.

Another change in boxing, apart from fighters getting bigger, is that they go on for longer. A boxer can comfortably perform at 35, and in some cases older, now days, but in Louis' day, and even Ali's, they would have usually been regarded as over the hill by then.

Just came across this documentary

THE FIGHT

The Fight tells the interweaving stories of two extraordinary men - German Max Schmeling and American Joe Louis - culminating in what was arguably the most politicized sporting event in history.

External Link/Members Only

[george r]

holyfield would be knocked out ..

[king tarzan]

holyfield would be knocked out ..

i know for sure bloodbath slugfest... both fighters badly battered and bleeding.. what you would call real man to man fight!! 👊👊👊👊

[HERTSBLUE]

Holyfied Tyson was a war.