2021 F1/Motorsport

[Blackpool Rock]

Looks like the Red Bull is a serious challenge to Mercedes this year.
As much as i'd love to see Hamilton win another title (would be great to get 10) they haven't really had a proper challenge for a few years now and hopefully it will make for some good racing and a better season overall if a couple of different teams can win it.

Max Verstappen is clearly a great driver too so combined with a good car he could be the one to beat this year

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[mr.bluesky]

Could be an interesting season. The return of Aston Martin to Grand Prix racing , the return of Fernando Alonso. Mclaren seem to be on the up, Seb Vettal , Sergio Perez and Daniel Ricardo changing teams and surely Ferrari as a team won't be as disappointing this season. I think Red bull will push Mercedes all the way this year. It will be interesting to see how Mick Schumacher goes but he's not in a good car so might struggle. I think if Hamilton win's his eighth title he will call it a day. Just hope the title race goes down to the last race of the season.

[Blackpool Rock]

I believe Red bull has the Honda engine that had been in development for next year however they are pulling out of F1 so decided to use it this year instead of next.
Clearly this engine is better than the Mercedes engine this year and Gasly put the Alpha Tauri on the grid in 5th

[sanchez]

Fingers crossed it will be a competitive season.

[Londonpunter30]

I believe Red bull has the Honda engine that had been in development for next year however they are pulling out of F1 so decided to use it this year instead of next.
Clearly this engine is better than the Mercedes engine this year and Gasly put the Alpha Tauri on the grid in 5th

It’s only the first race, let’s wait before we make snap judgements.   Could also be this track suits the Alpha better.

I’m hoping we get some decent racing and not another cakewalk for Mercedes, although as a Brit I’m hoping Lewis wins the title in the end

[cideruk]

Glad Lando was close to DR, thought he may get trounced

Sainz closer to Leclerc than Vettel was

Honda engine seems great


Few predictions

Gasly replaces Perez

Vettel booted/leaves before season out

Mazespin woeful just rich

Hamilton walks when beaten by Max to title allowing Russell in

[mr.bluesky]

Glad Lando was close to DR, thought he may get trounced

Sainz closer to Leclerc than Vettel was

Honda engine seems great


Few predictions

Gasly replaces Perez

Vettel booted/leaves before season out

Mazespin woeful just rich

Hamilton walks when beaten by Max to title allowing Russell in

Mazespin crashes on first lap 

[mikecee]

Mazespin crashes on first lap 

Apparently he's already got the nickname "azaspin"  Congrats to Lewis.

[ratedj]

The Mercedes/Hamilton combo helped lull many into a false sense of security and a perception that Hamilton's success has been fed by him having the best car, but today's victory was a timely reminder of the genuis at hand. The Red Bull/Verstappen package was the best out there today, yet Mercedes and Hamilton still found a way. Strategy and Hamilton's driving won the race. There is no one on the grid better than Hamilton at preserving tyre life whilst maintaining lap time.

As for 'Mazespin,' I feel quite sorry for him and Mick Schumacher. This year has been tough on all rookies, given that there were only three days of pre-season testing, which equates to 1.5 days per driver. That Haas car is clearly underdeveloped and lacking in both mechanical and aerodynamical grip. Prior to the start of the season Haas had already confessed that it would not be developing the car during the season.

[ratedj]

I believe Red bull has the Honda engine that had been in development for next year however they are pulling out of F1 so decided to use it this year instead of next.
Clearly this engine is better than the Mercedes engine this year and Gasly put the Alpha Tauri on the grid in 5th

Honda have clearly made a step forward with their engine, but Red Bull are reaping most of their rewards from their floor design. In an effort to slow down the cars (or cull Mercedes' dominance, if you want to be a sceptic) the FIA mandated alterations to the cars' floors. The rule change appears to have affected cars with a low-rake car design (being Mercedes and Aston Martin), whilst those with a high-rake design do not seem to have been affected as much.

It's not a surprise to see AlphaTauri at the sharp end of the grid. For 2021 teams were only permitted two development tokens to upgrade a specific area of their car. However, there was a controversial rule allowing teams using year-old non-listed parts supplied by a technical partner to upgrade to 2020-specification this year. As AlphaTauri purchases non-listed parts (such as the suspension) from Red Bull, it has been able to upgrade to the 2020-specification wihout using up its allocated tokens, thus affording its car more development. 

[Blackpool Rock]

Just watched the C4 highlights, good race that and hopefully there will be many other battles which go to the wire this season 

[cideruk]

Car that finished 1st and 3rd is clearly the best race car out there. Max couldn't pull away from Lewis so clearly doesn't have the best race car.  Merc sandbagging.

Great comeback by Perez

But bodes well for an exciting season.

[mr.bluesky]

Car that finished 1st and 3rd is clearly the best race car out there. Max couldn't pull away from Lewis so clearly doesn't have the best race car.  Merc sandbagging.

Great comeback by Perez

But bodes well for an exciting season.

Perez always was a good driver but never had the car to prove it. I think he will still play second fiddle to Verstappen just as Bottas does to Hamilton.

[cideruk]

Perez always was a good driver but never had the car to prove it. I think he will still play second fiddle to Verstappen just as Bottas does to Hamilton.

Oh yes for sure, most of his career he's had decent cars but not race winning cars.

Great at going long on tyres, in his early days was a bit crazy though.

Think it was when he was at McLaren he was prepared to run Button (from memory, am sure it was a Brit) into the pit wall to get him to lift.

Very hard for a Mexican to come to Europe and succeed.

Checco like Albon is not great at qualifying but least he can fix that during the race.

[threechilliman]

Perez always was a good driver but never had the car to prove it. I think he will still play second fiddle to Verstappen just as Bottas does to Hamilton.

I suspect somewhere in his contract it'll say he's number 2 in order to help MV to compete for the title.

[ratedj]

Car that finished 1st and 3rd is clearly the best race car out there. Max couldn't pull away from Lewis so clearly doesn't have the best race car.  Merc sandbagging.

Great comeback by Perez

But bodes well for an exciting season.

It's not, not at this moment anyway. At worst the Red Bull is on a par with the Mercedes; in reality it's a tad better. It's more compliant, whilst the Mercedes currently has an instability at the rear. Hamilton did not win that race due to him having the best car.

[ratedj]

Perez always was a good driver but never had the car to prove it. I think he will still play second fiddle to Verstappen just as Bottas does to Hamilton.

I would expect him to be closer to Verstappen by mid season, as will Red Bull.

[lamboman]

It's not, not at this moment anyway. At worst the Red Bull is on a par with the Mercedes; in reality it's a tad better. It's more compliant, whilst the Mercedes currently has an instability at the rear. Hamilton did not win that race due to him having the best car.

Agree RB clearly have the better car and if Verstappen had a racing brain he'd have won the race easily.

[Yankee21]

Alpha Tauri looks quick

[ratedj]

Agree RB clearly have the better car and if Verstappen had a racing brain he'd have won the race easily.

To be fair I don't blame him. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I didn't understand why Red Bull didn't opt to pit first. If I were them, knowing I had a better car, I would have opted for the undercut and sacrificed a few laps worth of new tyre life.

[cideruk]

Alpha Tauri looks quick

Honda engine has improved

[cideruk]

It's not, not at this moment anyway. At worst the Red Bull is on a par with the Mercedes; in reality it's a tad better. It's more compliant, whilst the Mercedes currently has an instability at the rear. Hamilton did not win that race due to him having the best car.

Red Bull have caught Merc up, last season the Merc was miles ahead, George Russell proved that beyond doubt, first race in an unfamiliar car that he didn't even fit into and bingo he's leading. LH is nowhere near as good as some think, just had a huge car advantage.

Leclerc and Verstappen in same car would trounce him.

Ditto Alonso and Vettel in their prime.

LH was beaten by Button and Rosberg don't forget, nobody would describe either as all time greats. All time greats always thrash their team mates be it Senna, Clark, Stewart, Lauda or Fangio.  They also get great results in average cars, something Hamilton has never ever done.

If the Red Bull was a better race car then Max would have been able to pull out a large gap, he didn't QED the Merc is still best, just the gap has narrowed, thankfully.

[lostandfound]

That's like listing Guardiola's or Klopp's worst defeats and claiming it proves they're shit managers. Or Man City / Liverpool got beaten by some team that the team you support beat so your team is better than either of them.

Niki Lauda went out on a limb to get LH to join Merc. Think I back Niki's judgement over yours. No offence. 

[Blackpool Rock]

Agree RB clearly have the better car and if Verstappen had a racing brain he'd have won the race easily.

The team lost the race for Max though by telling him to let Hamilton through on the start / finish straight, as the commentators said they should have let him through just before the last corner so max would be on Hamiltons tail at the start of the start / finish straight and could have got straight back past him using DRS

[Blackpool Rock]

That's like listing Guardiola's or Klopp's worst defeats and claiming it proves they're shit managers. Or Man City / Liverpool got beaten by some team that the team you support beat so your team is better than either of them.

Niki Lauda went out on a limb to get LH to join Merc. Think I back Niki's judgement over yours. No offence. 

I agree Hamilton is a class driver, the best way to sort the good from the very good is to watch how they perform in the wet as it takes away some of the equipment advantage and comes more down to driver skill and Hamilton is good in the wet as was Senna when he made his breakthrough in a Tolman at Monaco

[cideruk]

That's like listing Guardiola's or Klopp's worst defeats and claiming it proves they're shit managers. Or Man City / Liverpool got beaten by some team that the team you support beat so your team is better than either of them.

Niki Lauda went out on a limb to get LH to join Merc. Think I back Niki's judgement over yours. No offence. 

No it isn't, Rosberg and Button beat LH over a full season, not just 1 race.  If Big Sam beat Pep over a full season then it would be the same, but of course that's never happened.

You do know Lauda has been highly critical of LH too, as has JYS.

[cideruk]

I agree Hamilton is a class driver, the best way to sort the good from the very good is to watch how they perform in the wet as it takes away some of the equipment advantage and comes more down to driver skill and Hamilton is good in the wet as was Senna when he made his breakthrough in a Tolman at Monaco

Senna at Donnington was just awesome, average car, he blitzed the rest - true all time great, only bettered by Jim Clark, Senna again at Estoril.

Button one of the best in the wet.

Often overlooked was Stefan Bellof at Monaco when Senna was doing his thing in the Toleman

[ratedj]

Red Bull have caught Merc up, last season the Merc was miles ahead, George Russell proved that beyond doubt, first race in an unfamiliar car that he didn't even fit into and bingo he's leading. LH is nowhere near as good as some think, just had a huge car advantage.

Leclerc and Verstappen in same car would trounce him.

Ditto Alonso and Vettel in their prime.

LH was beaten by Button and Rosberg don't forget, nobody would describe either as all time greats. All time greats always thrash their team mates be it Senna, Clark, Stewart, Lauda or Fangio.  They also get great results in average cars, something Hamilton has never ever done.

If the Red Bull was a better race car then Max would have been able to pull out a large gap, he didn't QED the Merc is still best, just the gap has narrowed, thankfully.

I imagine that if you were to ask some of Hamilton's peers whether he is 'nowhere near as good as some think' they would likely disagree with you.

I agree with you, on average Verstappen or Leclerc in a Mercedes would be a match for Hamilton, but both are generational talents. You mention Button and Rosberg, who are both world champions. To say that Hamilton has never won in an average car, there's only one driver who has won at least one race in every season they have competed. The 2009 McLaren was far from a world beater.

I'm not sure about your supposition regarding Red Bull not having the faster car due to Verstappen failing to pull out a large gap. As a  counter argument I could suggest at no point did Hamilton drive away from Verstappen. During the first stint, on equal tyres, the Red Bull indeed built up a lead over both Mercedes'. Mercedes won the race due to some clever strategy and some remarkable race management by Hamilton.

[ratedj]

The team lost the race for Max though by telling him to let Hamilton through on the start / finish straight, as the commentators said they should have let him through just before the last corner so max would be on Hamiltons tail at the start of the start / finish straight and could have got straight back past him using DRS

The off-track pass happened at Turn 4, and the directive from the stewards came through immediately after. Had he have left it to the final corner there is a chnace he could have also ended up with a time penalty. I see their point though.

[cideruk]

I imagine that if you were to ask some of Hamilton's peers whether he is 'nowhere near as good as some think' they would likely disagree with you.

I agree with you, on average Verstappen or Leclerc in a Mercedes would be a match for Hamilton, but both are generational talents. You mention Button and Rosberg, who are both world champions. To say that Hamilton has never won in an average car, there's only one driver who has won at least one race in every season they have competed. The 2009 McLaren was far from a world beater.

I'm not sure about your supposition regarding Red Bull not having the faster car due to Verstappen failing to pull out a large gap. As a  counter argument I could suggest at no point did Hamilton drive away from Verstappen. During the first stint, on equal tyres, the Red Bull indeed built up a lead over both Mercedes'. Mercedes won the race due to some clever strategy and some remarkable race management by Hamilton.

Most drivers think they are the best, part of any racer's psyche is to believe 100% in their own ability.

Nobody that really knows the sport would describe Button or Rosberg as an all time great, yet both beat LH in equal machinery, that just does not happen to alleged all time greats.  Alonso too apart from points being docked.

The gap was narrow, both with MV in the lead then LH in the lead, the gap has definitely narrowed but the Red Bull didn't win, ergo isn't the best car, yet.

[chrishornx]

The off-track pass happened at Turn 4, and the directive from the stewards came through immediately after. Had he have left it to the final corner there is a chnace he could have also ended up with a time penalty. I see their point though.

is that the case? I thought if he didn't let Hamilton pass he would be penalised 5 second at the end of the race and MV's point was that if he had been left alone he would have gained more than 5 seconds lead and still won the race

I may be wrong but that is what I thought would happen

[ratedj]

Most drivers think they are the best, part of any racer's psyche is to believe 100% in their own ability.

Nobody that really knows the sport would describe Button or Rosberg as an all time great, yet both beat LH in equal machinery, that just does not happen to alleged all time greats.  Alonso too apart from points being docked.

The gap was narrow, both with MV in the lead then LH in the lead, the gap has definitely narrowed but the Red Bull didn't win, ergo isn't the best car, yet.

Of course most drivers are hard-wired to believe they are the best, but at the same time they will also acknowledge when they are in the company of greatness. In 70 years of Formula One there have been only 33 World Champions, with Rosberg and Button being on that fabled list. During their three years at McLaren, Hamilton beat Button 2-1 in the championship, and during their subsequent four years at Mercedes Hamilton beat Rosberg 3-1 in the championship. Earlier, you suggested that Vettel in his prime would 'trounce' Hamilton, yet he was beaten by rookie team-mate Daniel Ricciardo in 2014!

There are a few occasions where the best strategy, rather than the fastest car, wins the race, as was the case yesterday. When it comes to pecking orders F1 teams are pretty transparent in acknowledging who has the best car, and so far I've seen no F1 team or F1 critic acknowledge Mercedes as having the best car. That's not to say that that won't change over the course of the season, but currently there is nothing to suggest that Mercedes have a better car.

[ratedj]

is that the case? I thought if he didn't let Hamilton pass he would be penalised 5 second at the end of the race and MV's point was that if he had been left alone he would have gained more than 5 seconds lead and still won the race

I may be wrong but that is what I thought would happen

No, you are right in that assumption. I was just suggesting that had he continually delayed letting Hamilton past until he approached an advantageous part of the track the stewards could have taken a dim view, similar to when a lapped car continually ignores blue flags.

[cideruk]

but at the same time they will also acknowledge when they are in the company of greatness.

They really won't

Only the really average will admit someone is better than them, think Palmer did re Senna but that was very much a 'no shit Sherlock' moment

Don't recall Irvine or Barrichello saying Schumacher was better than them, despite all the stats pointing to that conclusion

LH, great driver yes, but definitely not one of the all time greats

[threechilliman]

No, you are right in that assumption. I was just suggesting that had he continually delayed letting Hamilton past until he approached an advantageous part of the track the stewards could have taken a dim view, similar to when a lapped car continually ignores blue flags.

I think you're right.

[ratedj]

They really won't

Only the really average will admit someone is better than them, think Palmer did re Senna but that was very much a 'no shit Sherlock' moment

Don't recall Irvine or Barrichello saying Schumacher was better than them, despite all the stats pointing to that conclusion

LH, great driver yes, but definitely not one of the all time greats

This is an excerpt from a Sebastian Vettel interview with Sky Sports after Hamilton won his seventh world title:

Asked in the later press conference what he had said to Hamilton, Vettel revealed: "I told him it's very special for us because we can witness history being made today. I think he is greatest of our era for sure.

"I think it's always difficult to compare… how can you possibly compare Fangio, Stirling Moss to our generation? You can't. Maybe we would be useless because we would all be s****** ourselves in those cars. Maybe they would be useless in our cars because they're way too fast. Who knows? But it doesn't matter, I think every era has its driver or its drivers and Lewis is certainly the greatest of our era.

"To me, certainly emotionally, Michael will always be the most… the greatest driver but there's no doubt that Lewis is the greatest in terms of what he has achieved. He's equalled the championships, he's won more races, he has a lot more pole positions so I think he's done everything you can ask for. I think today is the best proof."

[mr.bluesky]

Of course most drivers are hard-wired to believe they are the best, but at the same time they will also acknowledge when they are in the company of greatness. In 70 years of Formula One there have been only 33 World Champions, with Rosberg and Button being on that fabled list. During their three years at McLaren, Hamilton beat Button 2-1 in the championship, and during their subsequent four years at Mercedes Hamilton beat Rosberg 3-1 in the championship. Earlier, you suggested that Vettel in his prime would 'trounce' Hamilton, yet he was beaten by rookie team-mate Daniel Ricciardo in 2014!

There are a few occasions where the best strategy, rather than the fastest car, wins the race, as was the case yesterday. When it comes to pecking orders F1 teams are pretty transparent in acknowledging who has the best car, and so far I've seen no F1 team or F1 critic acknowledge Mercedes as having the best car. That's not to say that that won't change over the course of the season, but currently there is nothing to suggest that Mercedes have a better car.

If my memory serves me right Hamilton had more reliability  issues with his car than Rosberg in the season Rosberg won his championship but still pushed him all the way. Bottas has the same car as Hamilton yet can't beat him consistently  over the course of a season. The best driver will always dominate the team. Vettell was also dominated by his team mate Leclerc at Ferrari last season

[Corus Boy]

is that the case? I thought if he didn't let Hamilton pass he would be penalised 5 second at the end of the race and MV's point was that if he had been left alone he would have gained more than 5 seconds lead and still won the race

I may be wrong but that is what I thought would happen

I suspect that the time penalty would have been whatever pushed MV back to second behind LH.

I also think that the track limits rule is becoming a farce and needs to be much more definitive.

Personally I would like red lines on either side of the track, 'x' centimetres from the edge of the tarmac, touch the red line, an instant drive thru so that any infractions does not leave a driver in the field affecting other driver's races.

It is harsh but these are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, so they should be capable of keeping the car in the correct place, in the same way they have to at Monaco and Singapore.

[mr.bluesky]

This is an excerpt from a Sebastian Vettel interview with Sky Sports after Hamilton won his seventh world title:

Asked in the later press conference what he had said to Hamilton, Vettel revealed: "I told him it's very special for us because we can witness history being made today. I think he is greatest of our era for sure.



"To me, certainly emotionally, Michael will always be the most… the greatest driver but there's no doubt that Lewis is the greatest in terms of what he has achieved. He's equalled the championships, he's won more races, he has a lot more pole positions so I think he's done everything you can ask for. I think today is the best proof."

In the Bahrain grand prix Hamilton has also broke the record for most laps led in grand prix history which he will continue to extend this season.

[ratedj]

If my memory serves me right Hamilton had more reliability  issues with his car than Rosberg in the season Rosberg won his championship but still pushed him all the way. Bottas has the same car as Hamilton yet can't beat him consistently  over the course of a season. The best driver will always dominate the team. Vettell was also dominated by his team mate Leclerc at Ferrari last season

Your memory serves you right. To be fair I did not want to mention the reliability given it's part and parcel of F1, but it certainly played a part.

[chrishornx]

I suspect that the time penalty would have been whatever pushed MV back to second behind LH.

the rules are clear 5 seconds no more no less

[ratedj]

I suspect that the time penalty would have been whatever pushed MV back to second behind LH.

I also think that the track limits rule is becoming a farce and needs to be much more definitive.

Personally I would like red lines on either side of the track, 'x' centimetres from the edge of the tarmac, touch the red line, an instant drive thru so that any infractions does not leave a driver in the field affecting other driver's races.

It is harsh but these are supposed to be the best drivers in the world, so they should be capable of keeping the car in the correct place, in the same way they have to at Monaco and Singapore.

I think you are being rather harsh with your suggestion, but I do understand your sentiment. There just needs to be consistentcy. Simply put, every track has white lines marking at the edge of the circuit;if all four wheels are beyond the white lines a laptime gets deleted. The stewards actually did a good job of policing it this weekend, it just requires consistent policing. 

[ratedj]

In the Bahrain grand prix Hamilton has also broke the record for most laps led in grand prix history which he will continue to extend this season.

By the end of his career he will likely own every meaningful record.

[lamboman]

Red Bull have caught Merc up, last season the Merc was miles ahead, George Russell proved that beyond doubt, first race in an unfamiliar car that he didn't even fit into and bingo he's leading. LH is nowhere near as good as some think, just had a huge car advantage.

Leclerc and Verstappen in same car would trounce him.

Ditto Alonso and Vettel in their prime.

LH was beaten by Button and Rosberg don't forget, nobody would describe either as all time greats. All time greats always thrash their team mates be it Senna, Clark, Stewart, Lauda or Fangio.  They also get great results in average cars, something Hamilton has never ever done.

If the Red Bull was a better race car then Max would have been able to pull out a large gap, he didn't QED the Merc is still best, just the gap has narrowed, thankfully.

Think you need to put your clear dislike of Hamilton aside and be more objective,he's put every one of his team mates into retirement or a change of teams.Circumstance means you are not going to win every championship,motorsport isn't like that.
As for Lewis not being good in the wet I think you need a serious fact check there.
You don't win all those titles and get paid more than anybody else by chance,I hate the little shit but he's easily the best driver and has been for years.

[Blackpool Rock]

Most drivers think they are the best, part of any racer's psyche is to believe 100% in their own ability.

Nobody that really knows the sport would describe Button or Rosberg as an all time great, yet both beat LH in equal machinery, that just does not happen to alleged all time greats.  Alonso too apart from points being docked.

The gap was narrow, both with MV in the lead then LH in the lead, the gap has definitely narrowed but the Red Bull didn't win, ergo isn't the best car, yet.

But that's basically saying the best car will always win and that the driver and team / tactics don't affect the outcome which they clearly do, additionally some tracks suit different cars better or worse depending on the mix of corners and downforce etc

It's also saying that the best car will win every race that season, a bit like saying the best Prem team will wiin every game of football

[Blackpool Rock]

So who are / were not only the great drivers but the all time greats 
What we also need to consider here though is that some really good drivers careers were hampered by being the No2 in the team, can't remember if it was Mansell; Coulthard and / or mark Webber who all complained about being the No2 in the team.
So even if they were out qualifying and out performing their team mate in the race they were expected to slow down or move to one side and allow the other guy to win, think Webber made the comment on the team radio about "Not bad for a No2".
There were also complaints about how the No2 drivers would do the majority of testing etc then those settings would be given to the No1 if they were better but the No2 didn't necessarily have an optimised car, also back in the days of the spare "T" car it was always set up for the No1 to use

From the "Old" era i'd say Fangio; Stirling Moss and Jim Clark were all amazing drivers and this was back when a mistake could easily cost your life.
Jim Clark sadly died too early for him to show his full potential and Stirling Moss was up against Fangio otherwise he would have won many titles.

From the "Mid" era for me the stand out driver was Senna, hard to say if he would have won another title had he not died but that really depends if he's have had the right car, if he was in a competitive car then i think he'd have won.
Another from that era was Lauda who was a bit of a cold fish perhaps but analytical; professional and could set the car up better than anybody

From the modern era I believe Hamilton is a great driver as demonstrated by his ability in the wet, Schumacher was also good but not as good as Hamilton IMO.
They have both had good cars and I can't remember who said it but someone made a comment about how Ferrari developed their whole car around Schumacher and that anyone who had that tailored to them could have won titles in what was the best car 

Vettel was good in the Red bull when it was the best car but look at more recent seasons in the Ferrari where he has made far too many errors and lets not forget at times in 17/18 that Ferrari did look competitive

I'd say Max Verstappen is a good driver and future world champion too, likewise George Russell could do well in a decent car


Looking at other Brits I always thought Nigel Mansell was better than 1 title but he was often the No2 like in 1986 when his tyre exploded, why didn't the team tell him to pit for fresh tyres after they saw the damage and wear on Nelson Piquets tyres  Cause he was the No2 

Jenson Button was also a good driver but was just too nice a bloke and sat at BAR waiting for the developments to happen rather than jumping ship to a better team

For me though the greatest of all time has to be Fangio and even drivers like Senna held him in high regard   

[Corus Boy]

I've always seen F1 as a team sport and although most look to the Driver's Championship, whereas the Team want the Team Championship and so view Team Orders and driver selection with greater interest.

In my opinion Bottas is the perfect Number 2 driver;

He is good and fast, not as good or fast as Hamilton, but able to collect the win if circumstance or luck are against Hamilton.
He seems to know his place, in public.
Hamilton knows that Bottas is the number 2 and does not feel threatened by him and knows that it is one fast car he does not have to worry too much about.
Bottas brings home the points for Mercedes.

[cideruk]

This is an excerpt from a Sebastian Vettel interview with Sky Sports after Hamilton won his seventh world title:

Asked in the later press conference what he had said to Hamilton, Vettel revealed: "I told him it's very special for us because we can witness history being made today. I think he is greatest of our era for sure.

"I think it's always difficult to compare… how can you possibly compare Fangio, Stirling Moss to our generation? You can't. Maybe we would be useless because we would all be s****** ourselves in those cars. Maybe they would be useless in our cars because they're way too fast. Who knows? But it doesn't matter, I think every era has its driver or its drivers and Lewis is certainly the greatest of our era.

"To me, certainly emotionally, Michael will always be the most… the greatest driver but there's no doubt that Lewis is the greatest in terms of what he has achieved. He's equalled the championships, he's won more races, he has a lot more pole positions so I think he's done everything you can ask for. I think today is the best proof."

Yep, look at all that qualifications and he has to appear sportsman like.  Look at the aggro Alonso is getting re his recent 'better' comment.

Racers think they are the best, it's hard wired

[cideruk]

If my memory serves me right Hamilton had more reliability  issues with his car than Rosberg

LH 2
NR 1

Clutching at straws there a bit

And if you break the car it can be driver related

NR just beat LH fair and square

Which just doesn't happen with true all time greats

[cideruk]

Think you need to put your clear dislike of Hamilton aside and be more objective,he's put every one of his team mates into retirement or a change of teams.Circumstance means you are not going to win every championship,motorsport isn't like that.
As for Lewis not being good in the wet I think you need a serious fact check there.
You don't win all those titles and get paid more than anybody else by chance,I hate the little shit but he's easily the best driver and has been for years.

I don't dislike him just deal in reality rather than flag waving jingoism. Didn't like all the 'our Nige' crap either. 

I didn't say he wasn't good in the wet, I just pointed out the fact Senna was better, which is true.

He's had a huge car advantage for years, yes I agree.