Recovering from Covid-19, both personally and the country.

[freeze44]

I am in a minority here, but lock down will end way earlier than the jeremiahs are saying, Denmark is ending their lock down soonish, Sweden hasn't bothered, nor has belorusse, much of the world for various reasons is incapable of lock down. There have been deaths but so far we are well short of the 10 k mark, and no explanation if the victims died of the virus, or had the virus and died of underlying conditions. nowhere remotely near the 250k mark. People seen to think this is" the day of the Triffids" with feral gangs roaming the streets, breakdown of law and order, food shortages etc, none of this will happen. The strong leadership we need, is actually someone being realistic .

Was good to see the government accept that testing is the answer although a bit late!

The sooner we know who has it the better. There was a bbc reporter on earlier who tried one of unapproved tests and even though had no illness was aware of, the test returned him a positive and had antibodies. If such a test can be quickly approved and rolled out then that would be helpful.

Time will tell who has acted in the best way and what experts had it right but we are where we are so lets get on with the tests ad try to return some kind of normality asap!

 

[willie loman]

I'm selfish because I'm not happy to see many people die needlessly. Ah, OK  .

Like I say, the experts are saying half a million people would die in the UK with no action, across the world that figure is estimated to be 40 million (the usual annual death toll is 60 million).

But of course either they're wrong and you're right, or maybe they're just as selfish as I am? 

Not one expert has quoted the figure of 500,000, even the figure of 250,000 equally ludicrous has been quietly dropped , come September we will see who is right, if wrong I will accept it. Plenty of contrarians in the real world, I naively thought that members of uk punting would be a bit more robust intellectually.

[winkywanky]

Not one expert has quoted the figure of 500,000, even the figure of 250,000 equally ludicrous has been quietly dropped , come September we will see who is right, if wrong I will accept it. Plenty of contrarians in the real world, I naively thought that members of uk punting would be a bit more robust intellectually.

FFS, it was UCL. They have been advising the govt. Or do you think they just say what Boris tells them to? Or perhaps they're in the pay of China, to fuck up our economy?

Here's something I personally predicted: when this is all over the fucktwits everywhere will be saying 'ooh look, not that many people died, it was all a big lie', while conveniently forgetting the reason so few died was because the measures were taken. I didn't know that was going to be in September, so perhaps you're right on that score?

[mr mischief]

Lock down wont save any lives , it is not a cure

Of course it will save lives as there will be a hospital beds  and ventilators  should you need one.

Without the lock down there could be hundreds of thousands of people all needing hospital beds and ventilators at the same time.

[Beamer]

Not one expert has quoted the figure of 500,000, even the figure of 250,000 equally ludicrous has been quietly dropped , come September we will see who is right, if wrong I will accept it. Plenty of contrarians in the real world, I naively thought that members of uk punting would be a bit more robust intellectually.

Please stop posting rubbish.

[Payyourwaymate]

I am in a minority here, but lock down will end way earlier than the jeremiahs are saying, Denmark is ending their lock down soonish, Sweden hasn't bothered, nor has belorusse, much of the world for various reasons is incapable of lock down. There have been deaths but so far we are well short of the 10 k mark, and no explanation if the victims died of the virus, or had the virus and died of underlying conditions. nowhere remotely near the 250k mark. People seen to think this is" the day of the Triffids" with feral gangs roaming the streets, breakdown of law and order, food shortages etc, none of this will happen. The strong leadership we need, is actually someone being realistic .

???????

EDIT: nevermind, I had to read that 3 times to get what you were saying.

[Beamer]

Latest figures..
More than a million cases of coronavirus have been registered globally, according to the latest figures from Johns Hopkins University - another grim milestone as the world grapples with the spreading pandemic.

This is the reality willie loman........

[willie loman]

Latest figures..
More than a million cases of coronavirus have been registered globally, according to the latest figures from Johns Hopkins University - another grim milestone as the world grapples with the spreading pandemic.

This is the reality willie loman........

lets just see where we are in a couple of months, so far after 3 months of pandemic, we are under 3000 deaths in uk, not that high by any measure, strip out the pensioners etc, how many ?

[willie loman]

Of course it will save lives as there will be a hospital beds  and ventilators  should you need one.

Without the lock down there could be hundreds of thousands of people all needing hospital beds and ventilators at the same time.

There would be a few more needing hospital beds and ventilators, we have no excess capacity, that's why we are having a lockdown, we will end lockdown before we find a vaccine, that I can guarantee.

[winkywanky]

There would be a few more needing hospital beds and ventilators, we have no excess capacity, that's why we are having a lockdown, we will end lockdown before we find a vaccine, that I can guarantee.

I imagine you could also guarantee that if there were no Lockdown there would be 'a few more needing beds and ventilators' too  .

You're right that we have little or no excess capacity, but then that goes for virtually every health system on the planet, and a big part of the reason that every country is taking some kind of action is that they realise to have critically-ill patients having to be turned away from hospitals and left to die is somewhat unpalatable to say the least. No health system in any developed country in the world would be able to cope with the influx of dying patients, if they simply just allowed the virus to run rampant, unhindered.

I'm trying to work out whether you actually don't understand, or perhaps just a sociopath?

[Beamer]

lets just see where we are in a couple of months, so far after 3 months of pandemic, we are under 3000 deaths in uk, not that high by any measure, strip out the pensioners etc, how many ?

Our first death was on March 5th - hardly 3 months. Look at the facts! 

[willie loman]

I imagine you could also guarantee that if there were no Lockdown there would be 'a few more needing beds and ventilators' too  .

You're right that we have little or no excess capacity, but then that goes for virtually every health system on the planet, and a big part of the reason that every country is taking some kind of action is that they realise to have critically-ill patients having to be turned away from hospitals and left to die is somewhat unpalatable to say the least. No health system in any developed country in the world would be able to cope with the influx of dying patients, if they simply just allowed the virus to run rampant, unhindered.

I'm trying to work out whether you actually don't understand, or perhaps just a sociopath?

I wonder if you actually read my posts or understand the problem. Lock down will slow the death rate, it will not actually save anyone. What will save us is a vaccine. I repeat, lock down will end before we have a vaccine.

[paper7]

Some might argue those people are getting their comeuppance for fleecing other tax payers, and presumably that 'tax efficiency' also means they probably pay fuck all NI (which pays for the NHS)?

You would pay N I as a matter of course, one weekly payment and then, one your books have been done for Tax N I on the profit for the year, that is assuming you've made any!

[winkywanky]

I wonder if you actually read my posts or understand the problem. Lock down will slow the death rate, it will not actually save anyone. What will save us is a vaccine. I repeat, lock down will end before we have a vaccine.

I understand you, it's just that 99% of rational people think you're talking cobblers.

That includes the NHS, the govt, the experts, the vast majority of the general population.

Sometimes it's nice to feel 'a bit special' being in the minority, perhaps you can go on Newsnight when it's all over to tell the whole world you were right and they were wrong.

[willie loman]

For contrarian view on the virus google Mathew parriss, or peter hitchens, both extremely middle of the road commentators who write in the times and the mail. I am not remotely sociopathic but its a question of , is the game worth the candle? My answer is a resounding no.

[winkywanky]

You would pay N I as a matter of course, one weekly payment and then, one your books have been done for Tax N I on the profit for the year, that is assuming you've made any!

I used to work alongside self-employed guys who 'hired themselves out from their own company' (they were the only 'employee' of that company). They would delight in telling me they paid around £10/wk NI despite earning twice my hourly rate as an employee. Of course they didn't have all the bells and whistles of being an employee, sick pay, pension etc, but as I understood it they paid very little NI (and not much tax either, after all their 'expenses').

[winkywanky]

For contrarian view on the virus google Mathew parriss, or peter hitchens, both extremely middle of the road commentators who write in the times and the mail. I am not remotely sociopathic but its a question of , is the game worth the candle? My answer is a resounding no.

Post up a link where either of them advocate doing nothing to stop the virus.

By the way, I wouldn't call Peter Hitchens middle of the road by any means, and Parris is somewhat of a maverick.

[freeze44]

Our first death was on March 5th - hardly 3 months. Look at the facts! 

Agree Breamer although the facts need context.

For example the rough amount of people who die per week is 10,500. So the virus adding say 3000 per week is significant esp as those will need specialist care.

[willie loman]

I understand you, it's just that 99% of rational people think you're talking cobblers.

That includes the NHS, the govt, the experts, the vast majority of the general population.

Sometimes it's nice to feel 'a bit special' being in the minority, perhaps you can go on Newsnight when it's all over to tell the whole world you were right and they were wrong.

I am not bothered by the opinion of the vast majority, or indeed of the gov, or the nhs, but there are quite a few experts who are in significant disagreement with the prevailing wisdom. Remember lockdown will end before vaccination, lockdown is a temporary holding measure which will give us a chance to find some ventilateurs etc that's all. When lockdown ends, the virus will still be there, what part of that do you not understand?

[willie loman]

Post up a link where either of them advocate doing nothing to stop the virus.

By the way, I wouldn't call Peter Hitchens middle of the road by any means, and Parris is somewhat of a maverick.

Having a contrarian view doesn't mean doing nothing to stop the virus. Have I ever suggested that?

[GingerNuts]

You would pay N I as a matter of course, one weekly payment and then, one your books have been done for Tax N I on the profit for the year, that is assuming you've made any!

Many self employed use limited companies paying themselves minimum wage and therefore little NI. The rest of the profits they draw as company dividends and no NI is payable on these.

[willie loman]

Our first death was on March 5th - hardly 3 months. Look at the facts! 

The pandemic has been going since January. There was free movement globally at that time.

[winkywanky]

Having a contrarian view doesn't mean doing nothing to stop the virus. Have I ever suggested that?

I actually think you have. But you know what, so much has been posted, I can't be bothered to spend half an hour looking for it.

[willie loman]

Post up a link where either of them advocate doing nothing to stop the virus.

By the way, I wouldn't call Peter Hitchens middle of the road by any means, and Parris is somewhat of a maverick.

There are plenty of other dissidents, but those 2 are household names, and very much middle Englanders.

[willie loman]

I actually think you have. But you know what, so much has been posted, I can't be bothered to spend half an hour looking for it.

My views have been consistent from first post, in fact ive been accused of posting the same message ad infinitum.

[winkywanky]

My views have been consistent from first post, in fact ive been accused of posting the same message ad infinitum.

When you say stuff like this:

"There would be a few more needing hospital beds and ventilators, we have no excess capacity, that's why we are having a lockdown"

you completely lack any credibility. A few more hospital beds? FFS.

[willie loman]

When you say stuff like this:

"There would be a few more needing hospital beds and ventilators, we have no excess capacity, that's why we are having a lockdown"

you completely lack any credibility. A few more hospital beds? FFS.

I don't see what is wrong with that opinion, we are having a lockdown to slow the infection rate to free up hospital beds, why do you think we are having a lockdown?

[winkywanky]

Are you suggesting a much lesser response, perhaps simply social distancing and no lockdown, would prevent hospitals becoming overloaded?

[freeze44]

Are you suggesting a much lesser response, perhaps simply social distancing and no lockdown, would prevent hospitals becoming overloaded?

Which was was our governments stance until they changed course. The majority of countries are following the lockdown approach now. 

I do think it's an over simplification to say all heath systems would be over run. Some will be able to cope better than others.

I think it's a good thing we question things and have the debate.

[winkywanky]

Which was was our governments stance until they changed course. The majority of countries are following the lockdown approach now. 

I do think it's an over simplification to say all heath systems would be over run. Some will be able to cope better than others.

I think it's a good thing we question things and have the debate.

I'm interested to know exactly what willie loman's 'measured response' to Coronavirus would be.

Yes, our govt did change course, and they always said they would do when the time came, to prevent overload of the health system, among other things.

Obviously some health systems would cope better than others, but the common thread among all of them is that they are all shit scared of theirs being overrun with dying people. That would be totally unacceptable to the vast majority of people in any of those countries. That is undeniable.

Of course yes, it's always good to talk and there will be varying opinions. But when you say it's all being done wrong you need to say why, and you need to say what you think the consequences will be, and that you would accept them. |Otherwise you don't have an argument.

[The High Sparrow]

For contrarian view on the virus google Mathew parriss, or peter hitchens, both extremely middle of the road commentators who write in the times and the mail. I am not remotely sociopathic but its a question of , is the game worth the candle? My answer is a resounding no.

Both fine epidemiologists at the top of their game. But then again we are tired of experts and we won't listen to what they have to say

[freeze44]

I'm interested to know exactly what willie loman's 'measured response' to Coronavirus would be.

Yes, our govt did change course, and they always said they would do when the time came, to prevent overload of the health system, among other things.

Obviously some health systems would cope better than others, but the common thread among all of them is that they are all shit scared of theirs being overrun with dying people. That would be totally unacceptable to the vast majority of people in any of those countries. That is undeniable.

Of course yes, it's always good to talk and there will be varying opinions. But when you say it's all being done wrong you need to say why, and you need to say what you think the consequences will be, and that you would accept them. |Otherwise you don't have an argument.

The government wanted to go down the 'herd immunity' route but got spooked by the model that predicted huge amounts of deaths if they did this. Then the government said we would not test but then back tracked to say they would now. I know we have had this debate before ww but my view is that a healthy dose of critic and questioning is a good thing.

The model that spooked them is just that and maybe right or not but agree it's generally accepted to be right. Time will tell.

Re the health service point, then I think the USA is likely to suffer so badly due to their horrid system where we are better prepared than them but far behind Germany. Imagine what it will be like in third world countries!!

I do think the lockdown needs to end quickly and testing is the answer and the examples from other countries that follow the high testing and tracking route confirm that. Our government fucked up on this point and were behind due to that. That's bad for everyone, and health and the economy will suffer more than should have.

[freeze44]

Both fine epidemiologists at the top of their game. But then again we are tired of experts and we won't listen to what they have to say

  And didn't Michael Gove talk down experts a while back but now defers to them?!

[winkywanky]

The government wanted to go down the 'herd immunity' route but got spooked by the model that predicted huge amounts of deaths if they did this. Then the government said we would not test but then back tracked to say they would now. I know we have had this debate before ww but my view is that a healthy dose of critic and questioning is a good thing.

The model that spooked them is just that and maybe right or not but agree it's generally accepted to be right. Time will tell.

Re the health service point, then I think the USA is likely to suffer so badly due to their horrid system where we are better prepared than them but far behind Germany. Imagine what it will be like in third world countries!!

I do think the lockdown needs to end quickly and testing is the answer and the examples from other countries that follow the high testing and tracking route confirm that. Our government fucked up on this point and were behind due to that. That's bad for everyone, and health and the economy will suffer more than should have.

The herd immunity thing, yes there does appear to have been a change of tack.

Testing? I suspect that just as with masks, they knew there was no way they'd ever get hold of enough, certainly by the time they changed tack anyway.

There was certainly a realisation that there would be swathes of death and an overrun NHS if they didn't take more action.

From what I can make out, Germany had a head-start with testing because the enormous Pharma company Roche are based there, they had all the tools at their fingertips.

Interestingly, Sweden are where we were two weeks ago and they haven't taken big measures yet. I saw on Newsnight last night that the politicians aren't even getting involved yet, their scientists are effectively making the decisions. But they've seen what's happened elsewhere and some are starting to lose their nerve. That will be very interesting. The other thing to consider is that Germans and Swedes will do as they are told and be a bit more rational about it. The exact opposite of Mediterraneans like Italy and Spain, where on an individual and personal level they were all still kissing and hugging and coffee-shop-ing. Us Brits are somewhere in-between that I think. Yes, it does make a difference, national 'character'.

Yes, everyone knows testing is the answer now, but now we are in a queue for scarce resources because everywhere wants test kits. This will now be a limiting factor for us.

So yes, if we'd done more, earlier, we'd probably be in a better position. But we are where we are.

[Happylad]

National Insurance was originally introduced for sickness and unemployment benefit for workers. Also pensions I think. NHIS was originally a separate stamp (literally, stuck on a card) for the NHS but at some point the two were combined. There is still a National Insurance Fund but most of Health Service and welfare state benefits are paid for from general taxation.

This is quite wrong.

The first non-contributory Old Age Pension (which was means tested) was introduced in 1908 by Lloyd George and had no connection with Health Insurance.

Health Insurance was introduced  in 1911 and was payable via various Benefit Societies. Membership of such a Society was compulsory for all employees and it was this for which the weekly stamping of a card was required.  This was, of course, in the days before the 1948 Health Service Act, when Doctors were all paid by either the patient or private insurance schemes, and all Doctors` surgeries had 2 separate entrances and waiting rooms - one for private patients (who paid more) and the other for `panel` patients whose (lesser) bills were paid by the Insurance Society. At the same time an entirely separate non-contributory scheme for unemployment benefit was operated and financed by the government

 I well remember when I first started a temporary job in 1946 having to attend the local offices of one such Society to apply for membership before I could actually go on the firm`s payroll.

It was the 1948 National Health Act which finally amalgamated Pensions, Unemployment and Health under one roof and initially  the weekly stamping of the NHI Card to cover everything continued until 1975, but then had to be abandoned because the weekly contribution was changed from a flat rate to a sliding scale based on earnings and the present method of collection and payment by employers commenced.

As to there still being a National Insurance Fund - this is simply notional. Some may remember that when the last Labour Government left office the incoming  new Minister asked about the Fund and was told that there was no money in it.  In  fact the system exists and operates entirely on a `hand-to-mouth` basis, and the contributions collected simply aren`t sufficient to meet all the demands made on the system which has to rely on regular hand-outs from the Treasury.

[Thecunninglinguist]

lets just see where we are in a couple of months, so far after 3 months of pandemic, we are under 3000 deaths in uk, not that high by any measure, strip out the pensioners etc, how many ?

I would rather not be "stripped out" if you don't fucking mind!!!!!!!

[GingerNuts]

This is quite wrong.

The first non-contributory Old Age Pension (which was means tested) was introduced in 1908 by Lloyd George and had no connection with Health Insurance.

Health Insurance was introduced  in 1911 and was payable via various Benefit Societies.

Research or first hand knowledge?

[willie loman]

Both fine epidemiologists at the top of their game. But then again we are tired of experts and we won't listen to what they have to say

There is in fact no scientific consensus either.

[Doc Holliday]

FFS guys I see now why 'off topic' was deleted.

Willie raised all this in another thread when I tried to provide answers. https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=276537.msg2832246#msg2832246

He has no intention of changing his stance. He in turn should also have realised, he has no chance of changing the stance of the vast majority of enlightened members, yet he has tried it again just to provoke and be confrontational.

He is therefore trolling. Please don't feed him.

[Beamer]

FFS guys I see now why 'off topic' was deleted.

Willie raised all this in another thread when I tried to provide answers. https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=276537.msg2832246#msg2832246

He has no intention of changing his stance. He in turn should also have realised, he has no chance of changing the stance of the vast majority of enlightened members, yet he has tried it again just to provoke and be confrontational.

He is therefore trolling. Please don't feed him.

Agreed, like before he is trolling

[tobyk1]

From what I can make out, Germany had a head-start with testing because the enormous Pharma company Roche are based there, they had all the tools at their fingertips.

Roche (Swiss company) are based in Basel. There are other reasons why Germany were able to access mass testing so efficiently. Would agree with your point that the Germans are a lot more ‘obedient’ of their government, much like the Chinese and Koreans. While the French, Italian, and British are less so.

[GreyDave]

Roche (Swiss company) are based in Basel. There are other reasons why Germany were able to access mass testing so efficiently. Would agree with your point that the Germans are a lot more ‘obedient’ of their government, much like the Chinese and Koreans. While the French, Italian, and British are less so.

Its partially that but the number of "British" people who have the "I am going to do what I want and there`s nothing you can do to stop me so F Off" attiude is huge , Winky I `ve rung police several times about crowd of Roms as have other neighbours one who witnessed a severe beating of one also Police advised us not to get involved or make eye contact with them.... other neighbour was  threatened afterwards.. British police ...giving out tickets to ladies that chalk on pavements as it will cause Anachey  ..........We run them in We run them in..
Meanwhile what a lovley diverse place we live in eh? as many on here are seeing the EU are doing just what that new comic song says we should do "F All, F All"

[willie loman]

Roche (Swiss company) are based in Basel. There are other reasons why Germany were able to access mass testing so efficiently. Would agree with your point that the Germans are a lot more ‘obedient’ of their government, much like the Chinese and Koreans. While the French, Italian, and British are less so.

What is more relevant is the age profile of the country, Italy has more old folk.

[cotton]

FFS guys I see now why 'off topic' was deleted.

Willie raised all this in another thread when I tried to provide answers. https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=276537.msg2832246#msg2832246

He has no intention of changing his stance. He in turn should also have realised, he has no chance of changing the stance of the vast majority of enlightened members, yet he has tried it again just to provoke and be confrontational.

He is therefore trolling. Please don't feed him.

To be fair doc different forum members will have different opinions , theres a vital difference between deliberately trolling to be provocative and being the guy who is prepared to voice an alternative opinion against the majority , deliberate trolling is wrong but imho people should be allowed to express divergent opinions without being labelled trolls , all too often calling someone with a different opinion to yours is just a easy way to silence an opinion that you dont agree with.
Obviously this forum has a large elderly component and they will vociferously back the lockdown concept for obvious reasons but if you do garner opinion in the wider world alot of people are asking questions and querying why lockdown ???, shoudnt the onus be on the vulnerable to self isolate rather than bringing the whole of society to a halt. If all the vulnerable people effectively self isolated then they woudnt get sick and they woudnt overwhelm the NHS and they woudnt die. The few aberant young healthy people who took a bad turn and had to be admitted to hospital the NHS would be able to cope with , presuming that the premise that it generally only severely affects the over 70s is correct as appears to be the case.

[GreyDave]

What is more relevant is the age profile of the country, Italy has more old folk.

Ive spent time in the North of Italy its not all La Dolce Vita (which is an ironic term miss used watch the film corretly not just the bird in the waterfall)

It`s dirty foggey with poor air quailty also the accident at Seveso was tipical of lazy aproach to industrial behaviour many diying will have aged with this enviomently mess around them ..Bit like China really ...below from wiki note Other accidents ...they continued with Mafia influence and maybe still do Wastse trucks disguised as Yogut trucks

The Seveso disaster was named because Seveso, with a population of 17,000 in 1976, was the community most affected. Other affected neighbouring communities were Meda (19,000), Desio (33,000), Cesano Maderno (34,000) and to a lesser extent Barlassina (6,000) and Bovisio-Masciago (11,000).[2] The industrial plant, located in Meda, was owned by the company ICMESA (Industrie Chimiche Meda Società Azionaria), a subsidiary of Givaudan, which in turn was a subsidiary of Hoffmann-La Roche (Roche Group). The factory building had been built many years earlier and the local population did not perceive it as a potential source of danger. Moreover, although several exposures of populations to dioxins had occurred before, mostly in industrial accidents, they were of a more limited scale.

[Doc Holliday]

To be fair doc different forum members will have different opinions , theres a vital difference between deliberately trolling to be provocative and being the guy who is prepared to voice an alternative opinion against the majority , deliberate trolling is wrong but imho people should be allowed to express divergent opinions without being labelled trolls , all too often calling someone with a different opinion to yours is just a easy way to silence an opinion that you dont agree with.

I completely agree. My point was that he is rehashing what had already been thrashed out in another thread with no consensus reached ...  just confrontation.

He is now trying it again when the outcome will be the same. This is just producing confrontation again. That in my opinion is trolling. 

[tobyk1]

What is more relevant is the age profile of the country, Italy has more old folk.

Age is relevant to the infection and death rate, yes. We’re talking about obedience to social distancing and government policies; for which age is less relevant.

What is even more relevant, to GreyDave’s point (sounds awful btw), is the level of the countries immigration. The ratio of foreign citizens will inherently affect ‘government obedience’, or ‘sticking to the rules’. For e.g how the US are experiencing now with the Cartels taking advantage of the situation.

[GreyDave]

Still goes on 

External Link/Members Only

Links are...you decide

[willie loman]

To be fair doc different forum members will have different opinions , theres a vital difference between deliberately trolling to be provocative and being the guy who is prepared to voice an alternative opinion against the majority , deliberate trolling is wrong but imho people should be allowed to express divergent opinions without being labelled trolls , all too often calling someone with a different opinion to yours is just a easy way to silence an opinion that you dont agree with.
Obviously this forum has a large elderly component and they will vociferously back the lockdown concept for obvious reasons but if you do garner opinion in the wider world alot of people are asking questions and querying why lockdown ???, shoudnt the onus be on the vulnerable to self isolate rather than bringing the whole of society to a halt. If all the vulnerable people effectively self isolated then they woudnt get sick and they woudnt overwhelm the NHS and they woudnt die. The few aberant young healthy people who took a bad turn and had to be admitted to hospital the NHS would be able to cope with , presuming that the premise that it generally only severely affects the over 70s is correct as appears to be the case.

The majority of punters on this forum and on this thread are selfish old men with bombproof pensions, savings, and assets, who are prepared to see the country go over a cliff, to save their skins.

[Doc Holliday]

I completely agree. My point was that he is rehashing what had already been thrashed out in another thread with no consensus reached ...  just confrontation.

He is now trying it again when the outcome will be the same. This is just producing confrontation again. That in my opinion is trolling. 

I would further add that another characteristic of trolling is the continual confrontational tone of posts rather than just a calmly putting your argument forward.

The majority of punters on this forum and on this thread are selfish old men with bombproof pensions, savings, and assets, who are prepared to see the country go over a cliff, to save their skins.