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Author Topic: BBC News: Scotland's prostitution laws 'outdated and unjust'  (Read 1527 times)

Offline casio

Thought this looked interesting:

External Link/Members Only

"Campaigners want to shift the burden of criminality to those who pay for sex."

"They want Scotland to adopt something similar to the "Nordic model", introduced two decades ago in Sweden, which decriminalises the sale of sex but targets the buyers of sexual services.
Supporters argue that it would make Scotland less attractive to traffickers, while targeting the demand for sex work."

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 10:29:22 am by casio »

Offline salty28

This terrible discredited idea has been hanging over Scotland for many years in various forms but never made it into law, I wouldn't expect it to either. This is traditionally put forward by old school feminist types who may as well not exist to the SNP. The current woke ideology that has entirely captured current SNP policy is generally pro sex work for various reasons.

Offline Squire Haggard

There are several feminazis involved in this attempt at oppressing men. This one has the laughable title of ''Community Safety minister''.  She certainly succeeds in compressing a huge amount of bullshit into a very small space. Its the only thing that she's good at. The community needs to be kept safe from idiots like this.

''Commercial sexual exploitation refers to a continuum of violence. Prostitution is just one act on this continuum. Different acts will require different responses to challenge men's demand.''

External Link/Members Only


Offline GlasgowMan

The question is does it work?

from the:-

The Real Impact of the Swedish Model on Sex Workers

External Link/Members Only

Have levels of sex work in Sweden decreased?
Despite the lives of many sex workers
now being more difficult, there is
absolutely no convincing evidence
demonstrating that overall levels of
sex work have decreased in Sweden


Seemed to have stopped the street walkers but not the escorts.


Banned reason: Not the site for you, bye
Banned by: Iloveoral

Offline just14u

The word that comes to mind is "Entrapment".

Offline Matrix

I'd suggest it'll be more difficult for the traffickers, particularly in Sturgeons constituency, as we're now out of E.U. I.E. Where 99% of the trafficked come from.  Folk up here need to start paying very close attention to what they're allowing, up here.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 02:57:28 pm by Matrix »

Offline Squire Haggard

Our own feminazis that are trying to push this through always ignore what sex workers think and want. In fact, they try and force the opposite on them.

From the same link posted above by GlasgowMan

''This model has damaging
consequences for sex workers’ health,
rights and living conditions. However,
these negative impacts are rarely
discussed, and sex workers’ voices
are consistently silenced.''

External Link/Members Only




Offline rathbone

All in favour if it leads to cracking down on the traffickers, but not so keen if the folks running the consultation are so misguided they don't actually listen to the SP's themselves.  Hopefully not another case of, "We know better than you." 

On the plus side, Carlisle and Newcastle may see a massive rise in business which is bound to be good for cross Border relations!  ;)

Offline Matrix

All in favour if it leads to cracking down on the traffickers, but not so keen if the folks running the consultation are so misguided they don't actually listen to the SP's themselves.  Hopefully not another case of, "We know better than you." 

On the plus side, Carlisle and Newcastle may see a massive rise in business which is bound to be good for cross Border relations;)

Not if the Wankers in Brussels enforce a hard border. Be careful what you wish for...

Offline Name Not Found

Not if the Wankers in Brussels enforce a hard border. Be careful what you wish for...

Nobody 'imposed' a hard border; we signed an agreement to have one. In any case, that relates to trade; the issue here is immigration and free movement. We wanted to control immigration; we didn't want free movement. Result; massive reduction in foreign (sex) workers. It's not much of a surprise to anyone. is it?

Offline Matrix

Nobody 'imposed' a hard border; we signed an agreement to have one. In any case, that relates to trade; the issue here is immigration and free movement. We wanted to control immigration; we didn't want free movement. Result; massive reduction in foreign (sex) workers. It's not much of a surprise to anyone. is it?

Yes it is and that's what'll happen in this case as well. You'll need a passport and a border control, at the border...

If we hadn't have signed the agreement, we'd still be locked in limbo. As was the intention. 

Although your point is a valid one.  Reduce or stop immigration and the amount of trafficking will practically cease.

I'm not so confident that WE'LL be given a say in all this though.  "THEY" only "listen" when it's suits them.

Offline Name Not Found

Yes it is and that's what'll happen in this case as well. You'll need a passport and a border control, at the border...

If we hadn't have signed the agreement, we'd still be locked in limbo. As was the intention. 

Although your point is a valid one.  Reduce or stop immigration and the amount of trafficking will practically cease.

I'm not so confident that WE'LL be given a say in all this though.  "THEY" only "listen" when it's suits them.

I'm not entirely sure who the WE and THEY are in your scenario but.... If an independent Scotland re-joins the EU and England remains outside, there will be a customs (hard) border and no free movement between England and Scotland. That's a no-brainer. What that means for trafficking which, almost by definition, does not respect borders, is anyone's guess.




Offline Honey Badger

All in favour if it leads to cracking down on the traffickers, but not so keen if the folks running the consultation are so misguided they don't actually listen to the SP's themselves.  Hopefully not another case of, "We know better than you." 

On the plus side, Carlisle and Newcastle may see a massive rise in business which is bound to be good for cross Border relations!  ;)

You're in favour of being made a criminal? Did I read that right?

Your last point is spot on.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 11:05:04 pm by Honey Badger »

Offline Name Not Found

Did I read that right?

I don't know; did you?  If someone knowingly has sex with a trafficked girl, I, personally, have no issue with them being labelled a criminal.

Interestingly, on the cross-border issue, there seems to be almost no discussion in England around the reform of prostitution laws, so the two countries may well diverge over time. Is this because the Tory toffs just love their dalliances with their ladies-of-the-night?


Offline Problem Child

I don't know; did you?  If someone knowingly has sex with a trafficked girl, I, personally, have no issue with them being labelled a criminal.

Interestingly, on the cross-border issue, there seems to be almost no discussion in England around the reform of prostitution laws, so the two countries may well diverge over time. Is this because the Tory toffs just love their dalliances with their ladies-of-the-night?

I think there was a bit of chat about it a couple of years ago, but the tories quietly buried it away in parliamentary procedure somewhere. I’ll see if I can find a link or something.

Edit: can only find this

External Link/Members Only

The bill has kind of died since then anyway


« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 11:26:30 pm by Problem Child »

Offline Honey Badger

I don't know; did you?  If someone knowingly has sex with a trafficked girl, I, personally, have no issue with them being labelled a criminal.

Interestingly, on the cross-border issue, there seems to be almost no discussion in England around the reform of prostitution laws, so the two countries may well diverge over time. Is this because the Tory toffs just love their dalliances with their ladies-of-the-night?

The article states that anyone buying sex should be criminalised.  Rathbone sounded like he was saying he is in favour of this if it reduces trafficked girls.

Offline Marmalade

Their 'consultation' page has an anonymous feedback section. Just politely send them the research that shows criminalising prostitutes or punters is counterproductive. They won't agree, but they may give up the fight.

Offline J_H

The article states that anyone buying sex should be criminalised.  Rathbone sounded like he was saying he is in favour of this if it reduces trafficked girls.

We ought to pass a law against murder, that would soon stop the fuckers killing people.

Oh, hang on ...

Offline Marmalade

We ought to pass a law against murder, that would soon stop the fuckers killing people.

Oh, hang on ...
Yep.
Can you link that to trafficked immigrants (excluding boat people of course). Might be a winner.

The nutters claim that prostitution is already defined as “violence against women”. We could have a law against violence. Or coercion. But there’s already laws against those too (together with trafficking).

 :rolleyes:

Offline Matrix

I'm not entirely sure who the WE and THEY are in your scenario but.... If an independent Scotland re-joins the EU and England remains outside, there will be a customs (hard) border and no free movement between England and Scotland. That's a no-brainer. What that means for trafficking which, almost by definition, does not respect borders, is anyone's guess.

We, as in we the people. They, as in the Scottish government, who won't give the electorate a say on any of these proposals or whether we should even rejoin the E.u and on what terms. They're probably too busy trying to corrupt 4 year olds anyway.

The only option is to vote for a party that won't make consensual sex, in return for a fee, a crime.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 12:11:54 pm by Matrix »

Offline Name Not Found

The only option is to vote for a party that won't make consensual sex, in return for a fee, a crime.

You'll have to find one first  :D  This country is so uptight about sex that any party that had a policy in favour of more of it, or easier access to it, would be hammered by the gutter press and the witless morons that read it. The only publicly acceptable positions are to say it needs to be 'controlled', or just say sod all about it.


Offline Kruncher44

Providing evidence and proving any charges in a court from this proposed new legislation could be interesting. Beyond entrapment, which seems unlikely, how are they going to do it? In the case of a brothel of trafficked or controlled women, ok, you may have a compliant and cooperative witness willing to give evidence. But with  the likes established,  professional/organised, independents and agencies, who  could advertise and make clear that monies are for their 'time only' , would they be required and willing to  provide statements and give evidence against their clients, then risk making their businesses untenable? Again, seems unlikely.
  ( I don't have enough experience to even guess at how the saunas could handle and adapt to that sort of legislation) .

I can see them making life more difficult for sites like AW and VS; and maybe the indys will have to start setting up their own webpages again. But unless you're silly enough to be soliciting on the street or getting caught in gang controlled brothels, I don't see how they expect this to work. For most experienced, sensible, clued-up punters who know how to make reliable choices and safer decisions,  the risk of a criminal record may well be more theoretical than practical?

Offline Matrix

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a single aspect of peoples private lives that these new "puritans" (I use the term very loosely) in the government don't want to regulate/insert themselves into.   

Next they'll be sending people to court without even notifying them on the charges... :sarcastic:

Offline Casey69

I can’t see how this could be used to go after the likes of AW.
They are registered in Cyprus.

Offline Marmalade

I can’t see how this could be used to go after the likes of AW.
They are registered in Cyprus.

Oh it could. Not AW but punters. It would all depend on how much effort they wanted to expend on cyber tracking to find their identities. Imagine “police swoop nets hundreds of perverts involved in violence against women” (remembering that they define “violence” simply as paying a prostitute!!)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 06:48:55 pm by Marmalade »

Offline Casey69

Oh it could. Not AW but punters. It would all depend on how much effort they wanted to expend on cyber tracking to find their identities. Imagine “police swoop nets hundreds of perverts involved in violence against women” (remembering that they define “violence” simply as paying a prostitute!
That’s a lot of effort for Police Scotland.
If it actually happens, I’d expect some high profile prosecutions to scary the bejesus out of everyone, but mostly business as usual.

Offline Marmalade

That’s a lot of effort for Police Scotland.
If it actually happens, I’d expect some high profile prosecutions to scary the bejesus out of everyone, but mostly business as usual.

Yes, it would be. But it would depend a lot on how hard they pushed. ‘Scaring the bejesus out of everyone’ worked with the anti- kerbcrawling law with its hefty fines and a hideous banner (I recall) displayed tastelessly across the Western Approach.

I don’t think it will happen. There’s a poorer logical case and much greater financial cost (mostly I guess on computing power and associated man-hours). But it would be entirely possible.

Offline Marmalade

There’s a simpler way which they know already. Just stake out the SP’s workplace (by fake booking if they don’t already know where it is) then just walk in on her next visitor. It would ‘save’ the woman from the terrible ‘violence’ of doing what she has chosen to do (probably in the process leaving her either very hard up, forced into a more dangerous situation, or destitute) and bag an easy ‘pervert’ possibly with a big fine, say a couple of grand, snd maybe a bit of public shaming thrown in for good measure.

So much ill from these campaign groups who need such laws to justify their public funding and good-for-nothing salaries. You could call it a law against morality.  :bomb:


Online auldie63

I only do outcalls now to my house so how are they going to police that? Will the SNP get the boys in blue to bug my phone then put my door in after the girl has arrived. They really are Nazis who more and more want us living in a police state. :hi:

Offline seeker

There’s a simpler way which they know already. Just stake out the SP’s workplace (by fake booking if they don’t already know where it is) then just walk in on her next visitor. It would ‘save’ the woman from the terrible ‘violence’ of doing what she has chosen to do (probably in the process leaving her either very hard up, forced into a more dangerous situation, or destitute) and bag an easy ‘pervert’ possibly with a big fine, say a couple of grand, snd maybe a bit of public shaming thrown in for good measure.

So much ill from these campaign groups who need such laws to justify their public funding and good-for-nothing salaries. You could call it a law against morality.  :bomb:

Would this not still require the wg to cooperate with the police,and give evidence
What if she insisted they were only talking or carrying out a non sexual activity
Or no money had changed hands .
Surly they wouldn't kick the door down to gain access,
To try and catch them in the act ,
Like A drugs raid .
Also it wouldn't work if the wg worked from a block of flats .
The wg could advertise something for sale online with local pick up only
 say A play station, and these guys  are just up to look and try out her "PlayStation"
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 08:30:19 am by seeker »

Offline Marmalade

Would this not still require the wg to cooperate with the police,and give evidence
What if she insisted they were only talking or carrying out a non sexual activity
Or no money had changed hands .
Surly they wouldn't kick the door down to gain access,
To try and catch them in the act ,
Like A drugs raid .
Also it wouldn't work if the wg worked from a block of flats .
The wg could advertise something for sale online with local pick up only
 say A play station, and these guys  are just up to look and try out her "PlayStation"

Your punting phone, her work phone and her AW price list should give them all they need.

Offline Third Man

It was just a matter of time before that nasty piece of work Denham came back with this. When all the fiddled consultations are done I'd fully expect if a vote were taken for it to pass. Its been voted out before, but that was when people like Margo, and Jim sillars and a few others were on the go, and basically telling rhoda grant to piss off. The new snp crawlers are a different kettle of cunts. Up herr surgeons arse. One thing may bugger it up tho. What of the hidden secret agreements of the saunas, will the judges and assorted pillars of the community etc be exposed, or is this now not relevant. PSNI appears sensible in their approach. You can bet your boots if this becomes law this will be the main focus of cops here.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 10:49:35 am by Third Man »

Offline seeker

My phone :Hi you available today at 1pm so I can check out your PlayStation

Wg  yes .

Just because she is on aw doesn't mean every man visiting her
Is buying sexual services.
Im sure punter ,wgs will find ways around anything .
After all it is two consenting Adults ,doing whatever in private and no one else's business.
They should concentrate on removing  any pimped girls and stop trafficking.

Offline Marmalade

I seem to remember that the Edinburgh communities were strongly supportive of the Council (retaining saunas). It ‘keeps prostitution off the streets’ and the saunas generally have had good relations with neighbours and the various agencies. The abolitionists seem to have a Glasgow self-righteousness based on Glasgow’s pathetic policies on drugs and harassment that resulted in increased HIV and murdered prostitutes.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Offline Marmalade

My phone :Hi you available today at 1pm so I can check out your PlayStation

Wg  yes .

Just because she is on aw doesn't mean every man visiting her
Is buying sexual services.
Im sure punter ,wgs will find ways around anything .
After all it is two consenting Adults ,doing whatever in private and no one else's business.
They should concentrate on removing  any pimped girls and stop trafficking.

What they should do and what they would do are very different, as I’m sure you agree. Sorry, but playing devil’s advocate I could get hundreds of busts based on US -style anti-punting crackdown.