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Author Topic: The Guardian good story about 'sex workers'  (Read 2388 times)

Offline Horizontal pleasures

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Criminalisation of sex work normalises violence, review finds
Sex workers three times more likely to experience violence from client where trade is criminalised, data shows


Sex workers are more likely to suffer poor health, violence and abuse in countries where their trade is criminalised, a major review has found.

The review, by researchers from the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, found that sex workers suffering repressive policing – including arrest, imprisonment and extortion by officers – were three times more likely to experience sexual or physical violence from a client and were twice as likely to have HIV or another sexually transmitted infection as those who lived in countries where sex work was tolerated.

Sex workers who fear that they, or their clients, may be picked up by the police are more likely to engage in risky encounters, unable to take the time to talk to a client before getting into a car or negotiate terms in advance, the researchers found.

Their health and safety were at risk not only in countries where sex work was criminalised, but also in Canada, which has introduced the “Nordic model” pioneered by Sweden, under which the client can be arrested for a criminal offence, but not the sex worker.

Published in the journal PLOS Medicine, the paper by Lucy Platt, associate professor in public health epidemiology, and Pippa Grenfell, assistant professor of public health sociology, is a review of data from 33 countries. They included comments from sex workers who took part in some of the studies.

Canada's 'anti-prostitution law' raises fears for sex workers' safety
Canada passed a law in 2014 to make it illegal to pay for sex, but some sex workers say that has made their lives more risky.
“They couldn’t have designed a law better to make it less safe,” said one sex worker. “It’s like you have to hide out, you can’t talk to a guy, and there’s no discussion about what you’re willing to do and for how much. The negotiation has to take place afterwards, which is always so much scarier. It’s designed to set it up to be dangerous. I don’t think it was the original intention, but that’s what it does.”

Another woman working on the streets in Canada said she was no longer able to talk through the car window to ensure they felt safe. “Because of being so cold and being harassed, I got into a car where I normally wouldn’t have. The guy didn’t look at my face right away. And I just hopped in cause I was cold and tired of standing out there. And you know, he put something to my throat. And I had to do it for nothing.”

France, Iceland, Northern Ireland, Norway, the Republic of Ireland and Sweden also criminalise the client. Guatemala, Mexico, Turkey and the US state of Nevada have regulated sex work, which allows better conditions for some, but worse for the many who operate outside the regulated arrangements.

A man in the UK said the ideal situation was working from shared premises, where everybody had companionship and greater security. But, although buying and selling sexual services is legal, that can fall foul of the law. “Because of the legal situation, you have to be very, very careful. Because obviously it’s running a brothel, which has … really dangerous consequences these days,” he said.

New Zealand is the only country to have decriminalised sex work, in 2003, although it is not legal for migrants. Sex workers said they were more able to refuse clients and insist on condom use, while relationships with police were better. “We always have police coming up and down the street every night,” said one woman. “We’d even have them coming over to make sure that we were all right and making sure … that we’ve got minders and that they were taking registration plates and the identity of the clients. So … it changed the whole street, it’s changed everything.”

Grenfell said: “It is clear from our review that criminalisation of sex work normalises violence and reinforces gender, racial, economic and other inequalities. Decriminalisation of sex work is urgently needed, but other areas must also be addressed.

“Wider political action is required to tackle the inequalities, stigma and exclusion that sex workers face, not only within criminal justice systems but also in health, domestic violence, housing, welfare, employment, education and immigration sectors.”


Offline LLPunting

Sensible stuff.

Let's see what the Grauniad's own fanatics' responses are.

No doubt the authors will be decried as traitors to their gender and anti-feminist.

Thanks for the post. :drinks:

Offline NigelF

It's particularly good that they provided evidence against places where just the punter is criminalised too. Criminalising sex workers is obviously dumb shit.

I don't like the sound of going too far down New Zealand's route though, e.g. "taking registration plates and the identity of the clients" and also migrants not being allowed to work (as at least they provide more options and probably help keep prices down a bit).

Personally, I think we have it fairly good in GB at the moment (it's a shame some politicians are considering fucking things up for everyone concerned, not least the sex workers), especially since the police/CPS almost never prosecute just a couple of girls sharing a flat as if it's actually a brothel. However, getting that sorted in law would still definitely be a good move and provide a lot more reassurance. Also, massage places that do extras, brothels/parlours and agencies need to be made legal or at least decriminalised too. There's too many "cowboys" around (taking advantage of punters and girls) and it's not hard to see why. Having said that, too much regulation wouldn't be good either and paying proper/full tax would increase prices.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 05:36:04 pm by NigelF »

Offline Itsnotshy

Good post, and good to see the Guardian giving space to sane, sensible views based on evidence and not prejudice.
Julie Bindell will hate it.

Offline LLPunting

For those punters who enjoy a fuller eyeful
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And some other associated reading:
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« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 11:11:46 am by LLPunting »

Offline Secret4u

Thanks for this. The real issue is trafficking and coercion and the best way to deal with that is to stick to British WG. The Nordic Model is simply a form of moralistic disgust which can't cope with messy reality, preferring to attack men. It's not about helping WG either.

Offline LLPunting

Thanks for this. The real issue is trafficking and coercion and the best way to deal with that is to stick to British WG. The Nordic Model is simply a form of moralistic disgust which can't cope with messy reality, preferring to attack men. It's not about helping WG either.

Plenty of "British" WGs who are coerced or caught up in trafficking.
If SP handling their own calls then most likely indie but can't guarantee their not having to pay protection.

Offline haggismccormick

LLP. Paying for "protection" is not the same as coercion or trafficking. My employers pay a fortune for "protection". They call it security but it is basically the same thing.
Legit protection is defined by 2 criteria 1. Are you forced to pay it i.e. Are bad things likely to happen to you if you don't pay? Or, put another way, can you cancel any time? 2. Are you actually being protected and, if so, is the price reasonable for what you are getting?

Offline scutty brown

LLP. Paying for "protection" is not the same as coercion or trafficking. My employers pay a fortune for "protection". They call it security but it is basically the same thing.
Legit protection is defined by 2 criteria 1. Are you forced to pay it i.e. Are bad things likely to happen to you if you don't pay? Or, put another way, can you cancel any time? 2. Are you actually being protected and, if so, is the price reasonable for what you are getting?

but he's right......a lot of British girls ARE caught up in trafficking

Offline haggismccormick

but he's right......a lot of British girls ARE caught up in trafficking
That's as may be. In fact your probably right. All I was saying is that if you find a British WG who appears to be genuinely indie it is fair to assume that she is not coerced or trafficked and the fact that she is paying for "protection" does not change that.

Offline Revolver69

LLP. Paying for "protection" is not the same as coercion or trafficking. My employers pay a fortune for "protection". They call it security but it is basically the same thing.

but is it though?   In your employer example, the money is being paid to party 1 (the security firm) to avoid bad things happening from party 2 (the bad guys).

My understanding of the phrase "protection money" is where the security/threat are one and the same... ie you pay them to stop them doing bad things to you. Eg the Krays... or the Mafia etc operated this way. I guess the correct word to use is "extortion".

Ive often wondered how common this is in the punting world from the perspective of the WG... or indeed people running agencies etc?   How much underworld stuff goes on we never hear about.... violence or the threat of it.

Offline Itsnotshy

but he's right......a lot of British girls ARE caught up in trafficking
And you can never tell who, even if they say they are not they probably are. After all they're only women who don't know their own minds and have no control over their own lives and absolutely no ability to ask for help from punters or the police.
Best to have the Nordic model that ends demand by automatically criminalizing the punter and takes all that nasty decision making away from the poor women and their pimps. After all it's not like they're adults and all.

Offline Itsnotshy

Sorry for the sarcasm I've had a nice hot bath now and I'm feeling a lot more chilled.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2018, 08:28:51 pm by Itsnotshy »

Offline scutty brown

but is it though?   In your employer example, the money is being paid to party 1 (the security firm) to avoid bad things happening from party 2 (the bad guys).

My understanding of the phrase "protection money" is where the security/threat are one and the same... ie you pay them to stop them doing bad things to you. Eg the Krays... or the Mafia etc operated this way. I guess the correct word to use is "extortion".

Ive often wondered how common this is in the punting world from the perspective of the WG... or indeed people running agencies etc?   How much underworld stuff goes on we never hear about.... violence or the threat of it.

How much goes on? Well, if only half the stories I  come across are true, then there's too much. A combination of native  drug gangs working with EE groups from Albania, Russia, Romania and elsewhere make working in inner city parlours a dodgy business. How much it spills into the indy market is anyones guess, but its a good bet that in certain areas e.g. Shiel Road Liverpool, or Piccadilly Manchester its rife

Offline Titti Tatti

How much goes on? Well, if only half the stories I  come across are true, then there's too much. A combination of native  drug gangs working with EE groups from Albania, Russia, Romania and elsewhere make working in inner city parlours a dodgy business. How much it spills into the indy market is anyones guess, but its a good bet that in certain areas e.g. Shiel Road Liverpool, or Piccadilly Manchester its rife

Once again Scutty, where's the evidence? You refer to 'the stories I've heard' and started by saying 'lot's of British girls are involved.  I'll take your word for the two street scenes you mention ' are a good bet', but street walking is a dying 'art'. You are sounding less authoritative each day with your exaggerated claims of knowledge in this area.

The promotion of the idea that prostitution in Britain is synonymous with trafficking without providing a shred of current evidence is playing into the anti Punters hands. I request you give hard evidence or shut up.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 04:02:07 am by Titti Tatti »

Offline Titti Tatti

« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 04:16:50 am by Titti Tatti »

Offline LLPunting

LLP. Paying for "protection" is not the same as coercion or trafficking. My employers pay a fortune for "protection". They call it security but it is basically the same thing.
Legit protection is defined by 2 criteria 1. Are you forced to pay it i.e. Are bad things likely to happen to you if you don't pay? Or, put another way, can you cancel any time? 2. Are you actually being protected and, if so, is the price reasonable for what you are getting?

Why does it matter if it's unrelated?  The point is that sex work is fraught with various predatory and threatening perils that criminalising the girls or the punters does nothing to solve.
Don't understand what "protection" you're describing.
If you're paying any individual or organisation to prevent ill from befalling you due to any psychological influence or restraint that they exert then they're extorting you. 
If you pay a security person/firm to protect you from ill that they run the same risk of exposure to then they are protecting you.

Offline LLPunting

...

The promotion of the idea that prostitution in Britain is synonymous with trafficking without providing a shred of current evidence is playing into the anti Punters hands. I request you give hard evidence or shut up.

Censor much?

And do you have any evidence to the contrary to support your conjecture that things aren't so bad?

Perhaps you also need to follow your own advice and "shut up".

Offline LLPunting

...

The promotion of the idea that prostitution in Britain is synonymous with trafficking without providing a shred of current evidence is playing into the anti Punters hands. I request you give hard evidence or shut up.

Who said anything about synonymous?

Offline Secret4u

Well, if it's as rife as you say even in the Indie scene, then how else can you even begin to stop it except by squeezing demand, and undermining the market? Personally, I don't believe the girls I've seen are trafficked, and I wouldn't see them if I thought they might be. Mind you, I don't visit parlours.

Offline Titti Tatti

Who said anything about synonymous?

Scutty does, all the time on every thread he implies he has special knowledge about trafficking and yet provides no evidence at all. He keep referencing parlours run by triads and Russians and Albanians who are trafficking and just ignores it when I point out that more than 50 per cent of massage parlours are Thai.

Why are you posting about this when you're not adding anything? Can't you see how damaging it is to keep posting shit that plays into Bindel et al's hands?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 12:05:52 am by Titti Tatti »

Stevensmiles

  • Guest
What really astounds me about countries like Canada who introduce these archaic laws.

They actually know how unworkable they are yet the moralistic values of idiots push forward these ridiculous agendas.

Sex is shameful outside of marriage etc.
Paying to enjoy yourself is just not on is it.

The whole argument concerning trafficking is another argument all together and of course one to be taken into consideration.
This sex lark, fraught with difficulties innit.
Maybe I should concentrate more on my golf handicap.

Offline LLPunting

Scutty does, all the time on every thread he implies he has special knowledge about trafficking and yet provides no evidence at all. He keep referencing parlours run by triads and Russians and Albanians who are trafficking and just ignores it when I point out that more than 50 per cent of massage parlours are Thai.

Why are you posting about this when you're not adding anything? Can't you see how damaging it is to keep posting shit that plays into Bindel et al's hands?

And you have evidence to prove your 50% stat?  What's the geographical distribution of these Thai parlours?  Not in a lot of London that's for sure as between Sparkus, Callisto and myself we've checked a lot of it out and I think you'll find that TCM is the prevalent offering.
If what you said was true then you'd expect a lot more reporting of Thai encounters whether extolling the vaunted Thai service levels or bemoaning the lack of them.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 11:19:56 am by LLPunting »