BBC Two announces Louis Theroux: Selling Sex

[TonyJC]

I've always found Theroux to be a very biased reporter. Carefully crafting his programmes to appear objective, but in reality promoting his point of view.

I'll watch it, but with low expectations.

[JAYZ]

I received a request via a sugar daddy site I'm registered with to take part in this documentary. I was too nervous about participating so I didn't take it up.

[Horizontal pleasures]

all this chat and the programme has not even been broadcast yet!

[tynetunnel]

I completely agree. The programme on Channel 4 chose very rough drug addicts to portray a negative image of protitutes. That was the image I had before I tried escorts from Adultwork. I was gobsmacked how attractive and articulate most of the girls are.

Another programme show an overweight girl of average looks. Very biased reporting just like the BBC. They should have real gym fit escorts on there though for the life in me I don’t understand why they would want to expose themselves on TV.

Exactly this! This was exactly my view of what WG’s would be like before I actually met any! I figured it was all street corners, drugged up mingers and diseases. Then I discovered AW, UKP and had my eyes well and truly opened. Of course that world exists too, but in my own experience, I’ve met intelligent, good looking, clean and hygienic ladies (bar one I walked from, see negative review!)

[JonasG]

Most of the girls I've met on AW have been normal really.

Standard girls really, more often than not down to earth.

[no2punter]

From what I remember he's done two porn documentaries (not the one with the 3 British men) and two prostitution ones (one about the grimier side in Texas and another about the legal side in Nevada) several years ago. Been a while since I watched them but I recall them as mostly quite fair. Will be interesting to see how he approaches the UK scene given it is legal over here.

Here's Ggeorginattyson's take on it - open letter on twatter about the program

External Link/Members Only

To be fair to Louis, why would FOSTA and SESTA matter for a documentary covering the lives of prostitutes in the UK?

[LLPunting]

...

To be fair to Louis, why would FOSTA and SESTA matter for a documentary covering the lives of prostitutes in the UK?

It's the impact/implications for free-willed sex workers here in UK should we adopt similar.  Backpage, CraigsList, etc already scrubbed clean of (obvious) prostitute adverts and we suffered for that.

[nbarnes]

Disappointing from Louis Theroux.

Just goes to show, you can't trust a fucking word the media says these days.

This could have been a real oppotunity to hit back, but it appears that the outcome was pre-determined.

Probably the same thing will happen when it's "do we implement the nordic model" idiocy occurs.

[winkywanky]

all this chat and the programme has not even been broadcast yet!

Yes, almost like people have made up their minds already, which would suggest they would then mould their opinion around what they already think.

[Blackpool Rock]

Disappointing from Louis Theroux.

Just goes to show, you can't trust a fucking word the media says these days.

This could have been a real oppotunity to hit back, but it appears that the outcome was pre-determined.

Probably the same thing will happen when it's "do we implement the nordic model" idiocy occurs.

Hardly a shock really though, I mean when could you ever trust the media 
I know people perhaps used to trust them but over recent years that trust has been shown to have been misguided.
Personally I no longer trust anything that the media; Government or any authority tell me, bunch of self serving lying Cunts 

[LLPunting]

Yes, almost like people have made up their minds already, which would suggest they would then mould their opinion around what they already think.

Would be more than happy for them to show the programme and for it to be very balanced.

Here's the link to the Metro story that appears to have the current situation i.e. no apparent shift in BBC position since the complaint.
External Link/Members Only

All other coverage I could find via Google repeats that the edit is the edit.  The sex worker editted out is claiming she's being blanked by other media.  We're still waiting to see the expose that she's an attention seeker.  In the meantime no broadcast date for the doco.

Found these 2 links in passing whilst trying to find any previous opinion expressed by Theroux.  I am very wary of "investigations" that only describe less than a handful of cases.  Note the estimate from 2016-17 Parliamentary report that there were 32,000 SPs in London.
External Link/Members Only
External Link/Members Only
External Link/Members Only

[winkywanky]

Just had a look at the Metro story again, and although there appears to be new stuff in it (from remembering what I read there a few days ago) the same date of Fri Aug 9th is at the top of the page which contradicts the fact that I think it's been edited/added to since then?

Notwithstanding that, the piece says that both girls were invited to the edit to see the finished product, whereupon the girls state that their views/notes on the final edit were scoffed at, and members of the production team were laughing at the autistic girl while she was crying. That all seems rather emotionally charged (understandably if that's what happened).

Quote from the production team: A representative for the show told Metro.co.uk: ‘G is not identified as being a sex worker in the film, nor is she a subject of the documentary. Our initial contact was with A, and it was clear that she was the focus of the film, not G. We have addressed their concerns in the final edit of the film, and have listened to their comments throughout the filming process.'

At the moment it's all he says, she says.

I'm just looking forward to seeing the film: how the film portrays itself, what it sets out to cover, whether it does what it says it was going to do, and whether it features voices with differing opinions and gives them equal prominence.

[Jonestown]

History teaches us that MSM always toe the party line in programmes and articles on prostitution, the fact that they seem to have focused on one autistic SP, when as LLP points out they had circa 32,000 in London alone to chose from, to my mind confirms that this will be the case with the Theroux programme.

 
Why, if they wanted to go the handicapped route, didn't they pick they Indian lady who works the disabled toilets with her carer, that would probably be a much more interesting and positive subject.

[happyladdy]

I believe one of the girls being interviewed is Zara Du Rose

[Whipthatbooty]

The women themselves that participated don't seem terribly happy about their portrayal so I'd say it's likely to be the usual sensationalist nonsense, one extreme or the other. Either "I'm making six figures and living in a penthouse" or "I've been trafficked/raped/abused".
Of course vast majority don't fit either extreme but that doesn't make good telly eh?

[sparkus]

Given his two most memorable documentaries were Jimmy Savile (posthumous trial by media) and the Hamiltons (accused of sexual assault by joint enterprise, acquitted), I for one can't wait.  The Westboro Baptist Church one was batshit mental too (actually his gay porn one too).

[Colston36]

A girl I see in Gloucester told me the chief result of this show has been simple: about 40 new whores have started up.

[meptalon]

I watched the documentary yesterday, and for me, it was very obvious all long that he was bent on forcing his theory that SPs were in this business not by choice, but as a consequence of either childhood/early abuse or more generally daddy issues. And everything that did contradict that was shoehorned into "it's somehow that anyway" or really trying again and again to fit either of those patterns.

[Dipper]

A girl I see in Gloucester told me the chief result of this show has been simple: about 40 new whores have started up.

Here’s hoping. 

 

[RandomGuy99]

The BBC is defending itself about this programme:

External Link/Members Only

[millbush]

Bloody millennials have to complain about something.

[winkywanky]

Interesting.

Firstly, I note that the WG in question has (and also one of the other two) shamelessly used her inclusion in the programme to advertise on her AW profile. This includes a BBC publicity still - which will be copyrighted, although I doubt the BBC can be arsed to get her to take it down. I don't know whether she put her prices up as well since being on the programme, but certainly the other girl did (the one in Notts).

She seems to be saying she exchanged inappropriate texts with a member of the production team. I wouldn't mind seeing them (of course that wouldn't be possible) but a prostitute, sharing her number with a guy and engaging in fruity banter? Pretty stupid of the crew member if he did of course, but why is she complaining after taking part in that exchange, did he renege on his 'promise' to spend £1000 on an overnight with her or something?

A crew member kept touching her plaits? perhaps it was a make-up girl? Perhaps it was a cameraman moving his kit around in the small space of her flat, unavoidably making fleeting contact with her?  Or perhaps he was touching her inappropriately in front of the whole crew and she didn't want to say anything about it at the time? Perhaps it was her engaging in playful banter with a crew member, and then after deciding she didn't like the edit, threw all her toys out the pram?

BBC Producers didn't 'understand her disability'? Well she says she has Asperger's but I have yet to see such a level-headed and assured young lady taking part in such a programme. Is she saying she was taken advantage of? I'm no doctor or psychiatrist but I know a little about it from personal experience, it sounds like it might be entitled-millenial bullshit to me in her case, but who knows?

She says her Asperger's wasn't 'contextualised' in the film, but surely Theroux's mere mention of it will leave the viewer to draw their own conclusions in that regard?

She “begged” for an intimate scene, in which she voluntarily opened up to Theroux about self-harm and being abused as a child, to be cut from the documentary, but it remained in the final edit. Well why do you agree to be in the programme about why and how girls come to be working in prostitution (and sign up to it) and then think you get to say what gets past the edit?

She also said she was told by BBC Studios producers that the film would 'challenge stereotypes around sex workers', but she argued that the end result was “shallow.” Why is it shallow if it included what she'd openly stated about her abuse as a child, and about her Asperger's? I might add (from memory) she'd also mentioned having a high sex drive and that the money came in handy because she was an art student.

And I repeat my opening comment, she's very happy to advertise her place in the programme all over her AW ad by having a BBC still from the show as her main profile pic (I don't know whether it still is), and to enjoy the extra bookings she'll undoubtedly receive as a result.

Sounds like complete bullshit to me.

[RandomGuy99]

It was always going to be shallow with only an hour to cover the topic.

[tynetunnel]

Where did you read all that about the student WW?

[Strawberry]

Where did you read all that about the student WW?

There's article on Gal-dem;

External Link/Members Only

[winkywanky]

Where did you read all that about the student WW?

I gleaned it from Randomguy's link in reply #69, and from watching the programme.

[tynetunnel]

There's article on Gal-dem;

External Link/Members Only

Thanks Strawberry, I’ll have a read of that now 

I gleaned it from Randomguy's link in reply #69, and from watching the programme.

Ah, thanks mate. I managed to miss Randomguy’s post and link 

[winkywanky]

 

I've just had a little look at the Gal-Dem link too now, and unsurprisingly bearing in mind the intended demographic of the website she mentions 'casual racism' in the form of 'a white woman on the set who kept touching her hair'. As I mentioned before (although I don't know of course) I suspect this was a make-up woman, or perhaps it was just a female member of the production team (no doubt if it had been a male make-up guy that would have been 'sexual abuse' too).

There's a little more detail in this article in that there had been a 'continuity' issue, that means that they'll have been shooting over several weeks and when they edit the programme into a coherent whole to make it understandable when watching, it's sometimes helpful to take portions from a few weeks apart and put them together, for instance if a part of the Doc were looking at one aspect of her job then it would be helpful to bring disparate bits together. So if her hair changes radically during a 5min sequence then that can be quite distracting. In the context of that, if she were on-set and a make-up woman were there and a discussion was being had about her hairstyle, her hair might well get touched, in a friendly and supportive way. But hey, why not accuse an ignorant white woman of racism! 

To me, this all just sounds like she's flinging a load of mud because she didn't get to edit the programme herself, with her own agenda, to show things as she wants to show them. Well as a participant of a show, you don't get to do that. Perhaps if she feels that strongly she could form a local WG collective and go pitch a programme idea to BBC3 or Channel Four, and then within that broadcaster's guidelines, you get to set the narrative you feel wants highlighting.

Also, in this piece she mentions her Autism. Well we all know that Asperger's is on the Autistic scale, but it's at the very lower end where those who have it tend to be high-functioning, and even within Asperger's there's 'severe' and 'mild' cases of it. Infact if you were to analyse a large section of people I suspect a high number of them would be - completely unsuspecting of it themselves - on the Asperger's scale. The kid you used to go trainspotting with who's now a company director was probably Asperger's, the nerdy kid who collected stamps in your class and ended up starting a successful website was probably Asperger's. What's a little bit different, and what's Asperger's?  A mate of mine's kid was put on Ritalin for being a smartarse in school and slightly disruptive, he now has a gf who looks like a model, leads a very cool rock band and has a degree in music. Oh, that poor, poor kid.

From what I saw of that girl she was very intelligent, very on top of things, very articulate, very able to express herself, but she had issues from her childhood. From memory her dad had fucked off (daddy issues?) and a relative or someone close to her family had abused her. She chose to bring those things up in the Doc and of course they're relevant and possibly a contributory factor in her being a WG. And then she wants them removed because they don't fit in with the story she wants to portray about being a WG?

And like I say, let's not forget, she felt sooo bad about it that she featured a still from the Doc on her AW profile.

I smell bullshit.

[Steady Eddy]

Why are we focused on slating one of the Wgs featured.  Your points are valid in that when one makes an agreement with the devil what does one expect?  You are at the mercy of the production.  I watched the program and thought it unbalance because he only portrayed the woman as damaged and by implication exploited.  If it were to be balanced he needed to include a business focused provider.  Oxymoron as they would probably be wise enough not to get involved!!

[winkywanky]

Why are we focused on slating one of the Wgs featured.  Your points are valid in that when one makes an agreement with the devil what does one expect?  You are at the mercy of the production.  I watched the program and thought it unbalance because he only portrayed the woman as damaged and by implication exploited.  If it were to be balanced he needed to include a business focused provider.  Oxymoron as they would probably be wise enough not to get involved!!

Because the point of her dispute was raised in the context of whether the programme was balanced or not.

Depends whether you think the programme is the devil. But yes, participants are at the mercy of the production, they are the ones that produce and edit the programme.

Taking all three girls who featured in the programme, I think there was a reasonable balance across the programme. It might be argued that at the very least, the girl from Notts most definitely was business-focused. The older woman, that was more of a lifestyle choice, certainly that was the way she presented herself.

I think there'll always be 'an emotional background' to any woman who goes into escorting, not least of which because they are trading in emotions to a large degree, and to do that successfully means it never ever will be a 'normal job'. A large proportion of them will be what 'normal society' considers to be 'damaged' too.

[RandomGuy99]

I think the SP with Asperger's would have been better off having her carer present throughout the entire shoot, so that the SP's concerns were witnessed and properly discussed with the production crew.   

I've recently done research around autism and how it can affect people.  It's one of those invisible conditions that's very easy to overlook and not properly understand.  It can cause people to interact differently with others and experience the world in different ways.  The SP in the programme was impacted by the behaviour of the production crew and that probably caused problems for her due to her Asperger's.  I don't think the BBC really understood how they were effecting the SP and how the condition effected the SP's behaviour. Having the carer around would have helped a lot.

[PatMacGroin]

It's been a few weeks since the show was on TV. Any spike in bookings because of it will have dropped away by now. Raise a dispute, do some interviews, get some articles online, draw attention to herself and the TV show again and hopefully trigger another boost in business. Any compensation she can wrangle out of the BBC would be the cherry on top.

[cotton]

I agree totally with winky ;
"I think there was a reasonable balance across the programme."
"there'll always be 'an emotional background' to any woman who goes into escorting"
Ashleigh the SP with aspergers comes across as bratty and with a problem case attitude.
Altho one of the characteristics of problem case kids who possibly have genuine issues and are vulnerable to abuse is that they are quite often the most unpleasant and repellant characters and totally dont engage your sympathy or encourage you to believe them , quite the opposite , which is one of the factors that allows abuse to happen, but on the face of it ashleigh does just appear to be having a spoilt hissy fit.

[winkywanky]

It's been a few weeks since the show was on TV. Any spike in bookings because of it will have dropped away by now. Raise a dispute, do some interviews, get some articles online, draw attention to herself and the TV show again and hopefully trigger another boost in business. Any compensation she can wrangle out of the BBC would be the cherry on top.

If she really thinks she's been hard done by (which she probably does - all the time - about everything) then she needs to lodge a formal complaint with Ofcom. If they judge against the BBC then she might have grounds to pursue the BBC for compensation.

I forgot to mention, her carer is her best friend and live-in lover/partner.

So despite her crippling Asperger's she's managed to set herself up as a nice little feminist cottage industry with her bestie, supported by the state. She'll no doubt receive other benefits too, perhaps help with her rent? Although I wouldn't know, and I'm sure she wouldn't mention it if she did. The poor thing has had to set herself up as a prostitute who has sex with men, despite being a lesbian, it must be a completely awful existence.

[Yankee41]

If she really thinks she's been hard done by (which she probably does - all the time - about everything) then she needs to lodge a formal complaint with Ofcom. If they judge against the BBC then she might have grounds to pursue the BBC for compensation.

I forgot to mention, her carer is her best friend and live-in lover/partner.

So despite her crippling Asperger's she's managed to set herself up as a nice little feminist cottage industry with her bestie, supported by the state. She'll no doubt receive other benefits too, perhaps help with her rent? Although I wouldn't know, and I'm sure she wouldn't mention it if she did. The poor thing has had to set herself up as a prostitute who has sex with men, despite being a lesbian, it must be a completely awful existence.

A correction to this is that her carer used to live with her to help out.  They were always best friends, never partners.  They never had a sexual relationship. 

[RandomGuy99]

I think you're being unfair to people with Asperger's and autism.  From what I've read and the programmes I've watched to learn more about it, it can effect people in a multitude of different ways and can have quite an impact on how they interact with others and the experience the world.  One minute the person can seem quite normal and then they'll misinterpret something or the world will become noisy and really effect them.  It was quite interesting to learn about.

Just because you have autism or Asperger's it doesn't mean you can't be successful.  Alan Turing probably had autism, Chris Packham has Asperger's.  Both successful people. 

[millbush]

Packhams a prize cunt though.

[winkywanky]

A correction to this is that her carer used to live with her to help out.  They were always best friends, never partners.  They never had a sexual relationship.

That's not how I remember it. Can't say that 100% but that's the impression I was left with.

[Colston36]

Here’s hoping. 

 

Of course she's talking bollocks. There aren't 40 in total there!

[winkywanky]

I think you're being unfair to people with Asperger's and autism.  From what I've read and the programmes I've watched to learn more about it, it can effect people in a multitude of different ways and can have quite an impact on how they interact with others and the experience the world.  One minute the person can seem quite normal and then they'll misinterpret something or the world will become noisy and really effect them.  It was quite interesting to learn about.

Just because you have autism or Asperger's it doesn't mean you can't be successful.  Alan Turing probably had autism, Chris Packham has Asperger's.  Both successful people.

I was trying not to be.

The woman in question was interviewed extensively by Theroux, and while of course no-one can know her properly from watching the programme she seemed a very capable young woman, well on top of things but with emotional baggage. And I'm sure, some interactional issues with other people sometimes.

Like I say, I'm certainly no expert on Autism/Asperger's, but she's clearly someone at the high-functioning end of Aspergers and I found it quite interesting how her Asperger's magically turned into Autism for the benefit of her piece in Gal-Dem, as if she were trying to gain more sympathy at being 'done over' by Theroux. Why would she present herself as Aspergers on Theroux, and then Autistic on Gal-Dem? For me, there was a large degree of 'victimhood' being displayed on her part and perhaps also, a large degree of playing the system.

To take both examples of Asperger's you cite, Turing and Packham, yes, both are wonderful examples of how 'being a bit different' with Aspergers has almost certainly led them both to become great thinkers and contributors of their time, one was pivotal in our fight against Nazi Germany, one is a great force in bringing to the fore our need to look after the planet, its fauna, and to recognise climate change. Both are brilliant men. Neither of them need(ed) carers! I don't mean that glibly, and of course many Autistic people and perhaps some Aspergers 'further up the scale' might need day to day help in some form, but to me, theat didn't seem the case with this woman.

[winkywanky]

Packhams a prize cunt though.

Packham: a well-loved national figure, climate change activist and defender of the natural world par excellence (plus, middle aged punk with a quirky dress-sense and the old rebellion still burning bright  ).

You: some bloke on an internet forum who lied about being a doctor, spoke a load of bollocks about medical issues and presented it as fact, denied it, got angry about being found out, trolled other members over it, and months later is still so sad about it that he makes up an avatar to try and take the piss out of me (i don't give a shit by the way, you seem to be comparing me with a Team GB athlete  ). Let. It. Go  .

Who da cunt? 

[RandomGuy99]

Packham was diagnosed later in life and Turing was never diagnosed, but doctors now think he would be assessed as having Asperger's.  I've watched the programme where Chris Packham explained how the condition impacted him and it was very interesting and enlightening.

Autism is a spectrum of disorders and Asperger's is one of them. So she is correct in saying she has autism and more specifically Asperger's.  People really need to learn more about it.  I certainly learned a lot from my few weeks of looking at it and it really opened my eyes to how people with the condition experience life.

It is difficult for anyone to really know how Asperger's really effects the SP in question.  I'd give her the benefit of doubt.  Someone must have assessed her at some point and determined a carer was a good idea, so I'd leave that to the SP and her medical advisors to determine what is best for her.

I sometimes get told I might be a bit autistic but I've never been assessed.  There might be something to it, but I don't seem to have most of the usual traits.

[winkywanky]

Autism is a spectrum of disorders and Asperger's is one of them. So she is correct in saying she has autism and more specifically Asperger's.  People really need to learn more about it.  I certainly learned a lot from my few weeks of looking at it and it really opened my eyes to how people with the condition experience life.

It is difficult for anyone to really know how Asperger's really effects the SP in question.  I'd give her the benefit of doubt.  Someone must have assessed her at some point and determined a carer was a good idea, so I'd leave that to the SP and her medical advisors to determine what is best for her.

Strictly speaking yes, she's correct about Aspergers being on the Autistic scale, but it was her purposely changing from 'I'm Aspergers' to 'I'm Autistic' for effect, IMO. Most average Joes think of Autistic people as either being basket cases (some are, sadly) or in need of constant help/caring. She was purposely presenting herself as the latter for the purposes of her piece on Gal-Dem. She was playing the Autistic card IMO.

I totally respect your giving her the doubt and it's hard watching telly to make any kind of judgement (and who am I to, anyway), but I'm falling on the other side of the fence on this.

[freeze44]

Packham: a well-loved national figure, climate change activist and defender of the natural world par excellence (plus, middle aged punk with a quirky dress-sense and the old rebellion still burning bright  ).

You: some bloke on an internet forum who lied about being a doctor, spoke a load of bollocks about medical issues and presented it as fact, denied it, got angry about being found out, trolled other members over it, and months later is still so sad about it that he makes up an avatar to try and take the piss out of me (i don't give a shit by the way, you seem to be comparing me with a Team GB athlete  ). Let. It. Go  .

Who da cunt? 

  Maybe mogbush got some kinda problem....silly boy 

[winkywanky]

...sorry, I don't have time to answer now, I have to catch a flight to my next International Athletics meet where I hope to get enough points to be included in the GB team for Tokyo...

[Naughtyboyuk]

Hi all

I might have missed it, but has anyone actually seen any of the WGs shown on the programme?..I know it’s not very really contributing to the debate on this thread, but would be interested to read any reviews from forum members who may have seen them...after all reviews are the primary purpose of UKP

[RandomGuy99]

Back to the topic.

[RandomGuy99]

...sorry, I don't have time to answer now, I have to catch a flight to my next International Athletics meet where I hope to get enough points to be included in the GB team for Tokyo...

we'll have to see in the Olympics are impacted by the coronavirus

[freeze44]

Hi all

I might have missed it, but has anyone actually seen any of the WGs shown on the programme?..I know it’s not very really contributing to the debate on this thread, but would be interested to read any reviews from forum members who may have seen them...after all reviews are the primary purpose of UKP

Yes agree on both points 

[davidgood]

Hi all

I might have missed it, but has anyone actually seen any of the WGs shown on the programme?..I know it’s not very really contributing to the debate on this thread, but would be interested to read any reviews from forum members who may have seen them...after all reviews are the primary purpose of UKP

If this link works it will go some way to answering your question;-

https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=271009.msg2779912#msg2779912

I have played with Victoria a few times at Rebecca Ryder's parties, some of which I will have reviewed.

I have not bothered to check but there may be some reviews on her in the East Midlands section. You can search for reviews of all 3 when you have their AW profile numbers.

Regards,

davidgood