The Politics Thread

[90125]

Political posts have previously been banned as moderation had become too time consuming. We are now going to allow political posts in this thread only. Members can therefore easily ignore this thread if they want to.

Rule 21 continues to apply and zero tolerance will be given to breaches with instant bans.

21 Gender / Race / Nationality
Banter is allowed, but racist or homophobic posting will result in a ban.

[suttonporksword]

The older I get the less confidence I have that most of the government possess. They are all doing second jobs claim ridiculous expenses and dont actually do their job to represent their local community. As much as I think the incumbents have made a meal of this parlaiment I cant seekng them being disposed

[RedKettle]

I have never voted Tory in my life but always expected a degree of competence from them especially on the economy - more so than Labour and Liberals.  I have been staggered by the sheer incompetence of this government on pretty much everything.  I just thank god they did so well on the vaccine, we would be screwed now otherwise.

[fisherofsouls]

The most salient thing for me is the utter lack of gravitas among top politicians.

We have a clown as PM, the USA has a doddering fool as President and a simpering fool as VP. The 2nd rank are no better.

History has brought plenty of knaves to power, but rarely have we had such a conspiracy of dunces...

[PepeMAGA]

Brace yourself for 3 years of pent up moans 

[mr.bluesky]

Brace yourself for 3 years of pent up moans 

And the return of tory loving jimmy redcab 

[mr.bluesky]

The most salient thing for me is the utter lack of gravitas among top politicians.

We have a clown as PM, the USA has a doddering fool as President and a simpering fool as VP. The 2nd rank are no better.

And Russia has a deranged murdering psychopath 

[Ali Katt]

I have never voted Tory in my life but always expected a degree of competence from them especially on the economy - more so than Labour and Liberals.  I have been staggered by the sheer incompetence of this government on pretty much everything.  I just thank god they did so well on the vaccine, we would be screwed now otherwise.

We answer to big banks, big companies. You can see how lenient every government has been when it comes to collecting tax from companies like Apple and Alphabet, but Jimmy Carr is made an example of. I think the result would have been the same if Lib or Lab got in.

[Blackpool Rock]

And the return of tory loving jimmy redcab 

He'd still fall foul of the No Racism rule though 

While I don't do any other social media from what i've heard there can be a lot of agro on other sites, I mean you hear on the news about Arsebook and Twatter being awash with trolls abusing footballers when they miss penalties etc etc.
Anyway I had previously thought that after the rule banning politics; racist and homophobic posts etc that this site was probably a lot more PC and had better standards of decency than most other mainstream social media sites.
It's at odds with what most people would think especially all the people that knock this site and called for it to be banned etc, I mean how on earth could men on a prostitution review site actually be half decent human beings   

Makes sense to keep it on 1 thread and review if things get out of hand, comments are made on other threads which step slightly over the line on occasion and it can be hard not to inadvertently post something you shouldn't.

Is it OK to post something on this thread and then post the link to it on another thread saying something like "I've made my comments on the politics thread"

[mr.bluesky]

He'd still fall foul of the No Racism rule though 

Nah. Jimmy " takes the Knee" before getting into his cab surely 

[King Nuts]

I have never voted Tory in my life but always expected a degree of competence from them especially on the economy - more so than Labour and Liberals.  I have been staggered by the sheer incompetence of this government on pretty much everything.  I just thank god they did so well on the vaccine, we would be screwed now otherwise.

I don't believe there's anything that's conservative (big or small 'c') about this current mob. They are TINO.

The net zero malarkey has taken hold, resulting in an abandonment of all common sense with regard to power and utility supply and management.
 
Financially they are all over the place. Only now will we start to see the abject folly of lockdowns and the huge, soon-to-be unbearable financial cost thereof. The rich, the state-employed, and major retailers are and will be largely immune, of course. The rest of us will have to take it in the bottom.

The military continues to shrink, state education continues to hit even lower, and ever more abysmal standards, we're importing tens of thousands of undocumented people across the Channel, and the criminal justice system badly needs sorting out.

But worst of all is the NHS. If ever there was a time to reform or, IMO, scrap it, that time is now. The Govt has a big majority, we're all worn out with lockdowns and Covid, and the myth of the caring, there-when-you-need-it NHS has been blown out of the water in the minds of all but the most fanatical leftwing nutters.

So when you need an actual Conservative government to get a grip on all this shit, it turns out we haven't got one.

[standardpostage]

And Russia has a deranged murdering psychopath 

+1

[NelsonH]

I think you will find that, when it really matters, the health service will be there for you.

Certainly has been for me. You won't get any luxury, you will wait a bit sometimes, but you will get a high level of skill.

The fact that you won't have to agonise, that you maybe can't afford the treatment, is wonderful.

[Proton]

We are now going to allow political posts in this thread only. AN EXCELLENT IDEA 

[RedKettle]

I don't believe there's anything that's conservative (big or small 'c') about this current mob. They are TINO.

The net zero malarkey has taken hold, resulting in an abandonment of all common sense with regard to power and utility supply and management.
 
Financially they are all over the place. Only now will we start to see the abject folly of lockdowns and the huge, soon-to-be unbearable financial cost thereof. The rich, the state-employed, and major retailers are and will be largely immune, of course. The rest of us will have to take it in the bottom.

The military continues to shrink, state education continues to hit even lower, and ever more abysmal standards, we're importing tens of thousands of undocumented people across the Channel, and the criminal justice system badly needs sorting out.

But worst of all is the NHS. If ever there was a time to reform or, IMO, scrap it, that time is now. The Govt has a big majority, we're all worn out with lockdowns and Covid, and the myth of the caring, there-when-you-need-it NHS has been blown out of the water in the minds of all but the most fanatical leftwing nutters.

So when you need an actual Conservative government to get a grip on all this shit, it turns out we haven't got one.

Somewhat to my own surprise I am a convert on the net zero issue. The science is now compelling and frankly scary.  Although I tend to believe (hope) that some advances in science and technology will save us the scale of the problem means that we should be doing what we can now to at least slow the rate down. Of course we are screwing up the implementation which I suspect is what you are referring to. Let’s kill the incentive for investment into new traditional generation before we have alternatives at scale, that was sensible.

[catweazle]

I had a Labour MP where I live. Said MP got fouled up in the expenses scandal.  Come the next election, the Labour canvassers knocked on the door. When I mentioned the expenses stuff, the reply was " it was all  repaid" as if that exonerates the fiddling of the books.

Labour  MP loses seat to Lib Dems.  Lib Dem MP was not too bad. Come the next election, he's out to be replaced by a Tory. (Who trebled his majority at the 2019 electio6).

He's highly visible,  holds regular open surgeries and in fact is often in the local pub. He's very approachable and I've chatted with him  - not just on politics - on many occasions. If I pass him on the street he'll speak to me, by name.

He seems to be a thoroughly  decent fellow, who works very hard for his constituency.

[golden bull]

Scrapping the NHS? Are you fucking mad?
Reform it I agree on, so much money is wasted. It needs to be more efficient and too many managers that are useless imo.

[King Nuts]

Scrapping the NHS? Are you fucking mad?
Reform it I agree on, so much money is wasted. It needs to be more efficient and too many managers that are useless imo.

No, I am not fucking mad. The NHS was a brilliant idea in 1948. it isn't a brilliant idea any more. If it were, other nations would've copied it, and none (to my knowledge) have.

Reforming it means making it accountable. That will never happen. It's a sacred cow in Britain, because most people can't get their head around the fact that they believe it to be 'free' and therefore untouchable. Most people think the NHS does us a favour by simply existing and letting us have access without having to get our wallets out.

It's a ghastly, Soviet-style institution, run for its own convenience and benefit, and the public's interest a distant second.

Given it soaks up north of 500 million quid of public money a day, we are entitled to so much better.   

[mills_and_bhuna]

I don't believe there's anything that's conservative (big or small 'c') about this current mob. They are TINO.

The net zero malarkey has taken hold, resulting in an abandonment of all common sense with regard to power and utility supply and management.
 
Financially they are all over the place. Only now will we start to see the abject folly of lockdowns and the huge, soon-to-be unbearable financial cost thereof. The rich, the state-employed, and major retailers are and will be largely immune, of course. The rest of us will have to take it in the bottom.

The military continues to shrink, state education continues to hit even lower, and ever more abysmal standards, we're importing tens of thousands of undocumented people across the Channel, and the criminal justice system badly needs sorting out.

But worst of all is the NHS. If ever there was a time to reform or, IMO, scrap it, that time is now. The Govt has a big majority, we're all worn out with lockdowns and Covid, and the myth of the caring, there-when-you-need-it NHS has been blown out of the water in the minds of all but the most fanatical leftwing nutters.

So when you need an actual Conservative government to get a grip on all this shit, it turns out we haven't got one.

oh the irony. Someone calling for common sense and wants to scrap the NHS  and I assume wants to be at the mercy of health insurance companies and big Pharma when we are ill.
Bemoans the state of the education system but refuses to believe the evidence gathered by the doctors and scientists and prefers to believe the lobbyists and global warming deniers funded by the big oil companies.
And probably rants about the military and need to be strong because Putin blah blah blah but has posters on his wall of the PM who was best buddies with Pinochet

[King Nuts]

oh the irony. Someone calling for common sense and wants to scrap the NHS  and I assume wants to be at the mercy of health insurance companies and big Pharma when we are ill.
Bemoans the state of the education system but refuses to believe the evidence gathered by the doctors and scientists and prefers to believe the lobbyists and global warming deniers funded by the big oil companies.
And probably rants about the military and need to be strong because Putin blah blah blah but has posters on his wall of the PM who was best buddies with Pinochet

You are conveniently conflating some wildly different issues here.

1. It is common sense to want to reform, or preferably scrap the immensely wasteful NHS. It generates pretty poor health outcomes compared to other countries' systems, and pisses money away like water.

2. The state education system produces people who are frequently barely literate and numerate and whose understanding of most common subjects is close to nil. This has nothing to do with the global warming scam.

3. I have no idea why you're referring to Pinochet, but our military is there to defend this country. It doesn't seem able to to do that any more, according to a great many people who know more than I do about the subject.

[King Nuts]

Somewhat to my own surprise I am a convert on the net zero issue. The science is now compelling and frankly scary.  Although I tend to believe (hope) that some advances in science and technology will save us the scale of the problem means that we should be doing what we can now to at least slow the rate down. Of course we are screwing up the implementation which I suspect is what you are referring to. Let’s kill the incentive for investment into new traditional generation before we have alternatives at scale, that was sensible.

On the face of it, I ought to be a convert too. But oddly, I am not. I am a well-read, well-travelled, socially liberal person. But I am sceptical.

I think it's because 'Wolf' has been cried too often. Miami was supposed to be under water by 2020, as were the Norfolk Broads and half of London. Ice was going to creep down from the Arctic at one point, and now it's supposedly disappearing, yet according to the other people, it isn't.

It's when people talk about 'the science' that I start to glaze over. There is no such thing as 'the science'. There are facts, studies, opinions and theories. It's not one single, discrete thing, where everyone agrees with everyone else.

[lillythesavage]

I had a Labour MP where I live. Said MP got fouled up in the expenses scandal.  Come the next election, the Labour canvassers knocked on the door. When I mentioned the expenses stuff, the reply was " it was all  repaid" as if that exonerates the fiddling of the books.

Labour  MP loses seat to Lib Dems.  Lib Dem MP was not too bad. Come the next election, he's out to be replaced by a Tory. (Who trebled his majority at the 2019 electio6).

He's highly visible,  holds regular open surgeries and in fact is often in the local pub. He's very approachable and I've chatted with him  - not just on politics - on many occasions. If I pass him on the street he'll speak to me, by name.

He seems to be a thoroughly  decent fellow, who works very hard for his constituency.

That just about sums up what any MP should be, unfortunately a few have paid with their lives and it has given an excuse to distance themselves from those they represent.

[hendrix]

We don't need governing or government. What is government for exactly? It's a con to steal your money basically. Need to free ourselves from a slave mentality, being grateful for crumbs from the table. Nothing will ever change for the better until people realise this. Do not vote unless it's to spoil ballots.

[southcoastpunter]

And what would you replace it with? A system were we are all "equal"? A complete free-for-all?

we would have no NHS, no defence, no education system, no councils........ok, the last one is an advantage of your sugestion!!! How would anything get done?

[hendrix]

[/i]link=topic=339931.msg3527967#msg3527967 date=1648301790]
And what would you replace it with? A system were we are all "equal"? A complete free-for-all?

we would have no NHS, no defence, no education system, no councils........ok, the last one is an advantage of your sugestion!!! How would anything get done?

I don't claim to have all the answers. There are people way more qualified that would have some interesting ideas for sure.

Fact of the matter is that "government" as we've made it, does not work. Government is garbage at running practically everything you've mentioned. Replacing one party of conmen with another gets you nowhere as you must realise? It just ensures that the conmen stay in power

Something has to change drastically, and I External Link/Members Only science and tech led solutions together with the realisation that the "economy" and "money" are made up abstract nonsenses would be a start. Understand that the NHS will NEVER have enough "money" There'll never be enough "money" to provide the highest quality education to everyone equally, and there'll never be enough "money" to modernise defence systems to cope adequately with modern threats. All because we're tied to bullshit party politics and even worse "political idealogy"

If you're happy with the way things are and have been for your whole lifetime, then obviously carry on with the status quo.

[RedKettle]

On the face of it, I ought to be a convert too. But oddly, I am not. I am a well-read, well-travelled, socially liberal person. But I am sceptical.

I think it's because 'Wolf' has been cried too often. Miami was supposed to be under water by 2020, as were the Norfolk Broads and half of London. Ice was going to creep down from the Arctic at one point, and now it's supposedly disappearing, yet according to the other people, it isn't.

It's when people talk about 'the science' that I start to glaze over. There is no such thing as 'the science'. There are facts, studies, opinions and theories. It's not one single, discrete thing, where everyone agrees with everyone else.

The science is pretty much agreed now - there is an incredible degree of coherence.  There is a problem and it is a massive one with huge consequences, you can find excuses not to do anything and condemn our children or you can do what you can and hope it is enough.  The thing is if you are right so what, if I am right millions die - lets err on the side of caution.

[RedKettle]

We don't need governing or government. What is government for exactly? It's a con to steal your money basically. Need to free ourselves from a slave mentality, being grateful for crumbs from the table. Nothing will ever change for the better until people realise this. Do not vote unless it's to spoil ballots.

It is there to provide what we need as a collective but cannot organise individually - eg law and order, education, roads etc etc.  To say we do not need government is idiotic - to debate the best form of government is another matter.

People die fighting for the vote, shame on those who do not exercise it.

[hendrix]

It is there to provide what we need as a collective but cannot organise individually - eg law and order, education, roads etc etc.  To say we do not need government is idiotic - to debate the best form of government is another matter.

People die fighting for the vote, shame on those who do not exercise it.

The people who died fighting for the vote would be massively embarrassed at how that turned out.

It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always wins (Douglas Adams)

I would say that it has been proven beyond doubt that keeping a system of government (I agree that a very different form of government may be required) that has  always failed the people is actually the real idiocy.

[RedKettle]

The people who died fighting for the vote would be massively embarrassed at how that turned out.

It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always wins (Douglas Adams)

I would say that it has been proven beyond doubt that keeping a system of government (I agree that a very different form of government may be required) that has  always failed the people is actually the real idiocy.

Has it really failed the people?  It has it's short comings but compared to say Russia or China I think our system is pretty dam good.  Or would you prefer Iran?

[lostandfound]

We don't need governing or government. What is government for exactly? It's a con to steal your money basically. Need to free ourselves from a slave mentality, being grateful for crumbs from the table. Nothing will ever change for the better until people realise this. Do not vote unless it's to spoil ballots.

Wow - you and King Nuts should form a debating society! 

[lamboman]

I'm thinking no country has ever tried no government before because it's an incredibly stupid idea.

[Adoniron]

We don't need governing or government. What is government for exactly? It's a con to steal your money basically. Need to free ourselves from a slave mentality, being grateful for crumbs from the table. Nothing will ever change for the better until people realise this. Do not vote unless it's to spoil ballots.

If you have no government who protects the weak from the strong, the law abiding from the criminals, the vulnerable from the predators, the sheep from the wolves? It would lead to exploitation, cruelty and violence.

[King Nuts]

Fact of the matter is that "government" as we've made it, does not work. Government is garbage at running practically everything you've mentioned. Replacing one party of conmen with another gets you nowhere as you must realise? It just ensures that the conmen stay in power

Something has to change drastically, and I External Link/Members Only science and tech led solutions together with the realisation that the "economy" and "money" are made up abstract nonsenses would be a start.

I depends on your definition of 'work'. it works in the sense we have roads, schools, hospitals, a civil service, rule of law and so on, which we pay for in taxes. Does it work efficiently? No, it doesn't. And that's because governments always have an endless stream of other people's money, and a a consequence, financial prudence goes out of the window.

The economy and 'money' are not abstract nonsenses. They are very real. Especially if you are poor.

We could do with some change, that's for sure. And we could start by weaning ourselves off the idea that Government has to be in our face every minute of every day, and doing everything for us.

For example, it's not the job of government to feed us. It's their job to ensure that the infrastructure that enables the chain from farmer to kitchen table to work with the least interference and disruption, and at the maximum efficiency and benefit of all concerned.

 

[hendrix]

Has it really failed the people?  It has it's short comings but compared to say Russia or China I think our system is pretty dam good.  Or would you prefer Iran?

They're all shit. Why are so many people keen to bootlick politicians? Fuck them all. Burn it all down. Stop making excuses for the people that own you and hate you unless you're making them richer.

[hendrix]

If you have no government who protects the weak from the strong, the law abiding from the criminals, the vulnerable from the predators, the sheep from the wolves? It would lead to exploitation, cruelty and violence.

Yeah, none of those things happen at the moment.

[hendrix]

I'm thinking no country has ever tried no government before because it's an incredibly stupid idea.

Then by all means, carry on with the system you're clearly happy with 

I suspect it's more that it would require a real violent revolution, and most people are too busy watching Love Island.

[Blackpool Rock]

If you have no government who protects the weak from the strong, the law abiding from the criminals, the vulnerable from the predators, the sheep from the wolves? It would lead to exploitation, cruelty and violence.

Yeah I never quite got the whole "Anarchy" thing that seemed so popular amongst teenagers and punks in their 20's when I was a kid, basically ends up a lawless or rather law of the jungle scenario 

Would people really like the country to be run by someone like Pol Pot 
He was all for a fresh start, sounds good rolling the clock back and making society better, a bit like the "Build back better" we all heard during covid 

[mradventures]

theres a book about some libitarian dream town
A Libertarian Walks Into a Bear
funnily enough, it doesnt go well

and yeah i think the current torys are inept, and the worst bunch weve had for atleast 100 years, but we still need the mechanisms of a state

[DastardlyDick]

IMO, the basic "problem" with the NHS is that it tries to do too much. To give one example,  since when was IVF a necessity? If you want kids, pay for it yourself!

[dubs]

I think one thing that we call all agree on, is that brexit has been a massive success.

[daviemac]

IMO, the basic "problem" with the NHS is that it tries to do too much. To give one example,  since when was IVF a necessity? If you want kids, pay for it yourself!

IVF is only free on the NHS if certain criteria are met, it isn't available for everyone. Much the same as prescription charges, dental treatment and eye tests I would imagine.

[lamboman]

IMO, the basic "problem" with the NHS is that it tries to do too much. To give one example,  since when was IVF a necessity? If you want kids, pay for it yourself!

I think the basic problem is over 50 thousand people are paid more than 100k in the NHS and according to a friend who is quite high up many of these people do "fuck all".
It's an institution over run by managers and the last time I had an operation on the NHS the level of incompetence by several staff members was scary frankly.

[lostandfound]

I think the basic problem is over 50 thousand people are paid more than 100k in the NHS and according to a friend who is quite high up many of these people do "fuck all".
It's an institution over run by managers and the last time I had an operation on the NHS the level of incompetence by several staff members was scary frankly.

A quick Google shows there are > 46K consultant doctors in the NHS, so that number does not seem unreasonable to me.

[King Nuts]

A quick Google shows there are > 46K consultant doctors in the NHS, so that number does not seem unreasonable to me.

I'm not sure they're all 'in' the NHS. From my admittedly limited experience of consultants, they seem to be self-employed. They'll work 'x' number of days for the NHS and 'y' number of days privately. Whoever their customer is, I doubt that most of them aren't billing less than 1500 quid a day.

[lamboman]

I'm not sure they're all 'in' the NHS. From my admittedly limited experience of consultants, they seem to be self-employed. They'll work 'x' number of days for the NHS and 'y' number of days privately. Whoever their customer is, I doubt that most of them aren't billing less than 1500 quid a day.

Exactly even most GPs are self employed.

[mills_and_bhuna]

If you have no government who protects the weak from the strong, the law abiding from the criminals, the vulnerable from the predators, the sheep from the wolves? It would lead to exploitation, cruelty and violence.

you've come pretty damn close to describing laissez fire Capitalism. Or the American dream

[King Nuts]

you've come pretty damn close to describing laissez fire Capitalism. Or the American dream

I think that's a pretty shallow viewpoint. Besides which, there's little that's laissez-faire about business and commerce in general in America. it's one of the most highly-regulated countries on the planet.

Capitalism works when the maximum possible number of people have capital. And as the great Adam Smith once famously said 'It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.'

[chrishornx]

I don't claim to have all the answers. There are people way more qualified that would have some interesting ideas for sure.


If you're happy with the way things are and have been for your whole lifetime, then obviously carry on with the status quo.

nothing is perfect but sadly you offer no answers let alone all answers

[Blackpool Rock]

I think one thing that we call all agree on, is that brexit has been a massive success.

Surprised nobodies taken the bait yet, BTW you're wrong.............. Oh shit 

[Blackpool Rock]

I don't believe there's anything that's conservative (big or small 'c') about this current mob. They are TINO.

The net zero malarkey has taken hold, resulting in an abandonment of all common sense with regard to power and utility supply and management.
 
Financially they are all over the place. Only now will we start to see the abject folly of lockdowns and the huge, soon-to-be unbearable financial cost thereof. The rich, the state-employed, and major retailers are and will be largely immune, of course. The rest of us will have to take it in the bottom.

The military continues to shrink, state education continues to hit even lower, and ever more abysmal standards, we're importing tens of thousands of undocumented people across the Channel, and the criminal justice system badly needs sorting out.

But worst of all is the NHS. If ever there was a time to reform or, IMO, scrap it, that time is now. The Govt has a big majority, we're all worn out with lockdowns and Covid, and the myth of the caring, there-when-you-need-it NHS has been blown out of the water in the minds of all but the most fanatical leftwing nutters.

So when you need an actual Conservative government to get a grip on all this shit, it turns out we haven't got one.

Never needed the NHS other than for a few doctors appointments and my covid jab etc but i'm pleased to know it's there if I should fall ill and need it.
It does cost a lot of money but modern medicine does and let's face it they do a lot more now than the did when it first started as it tries to be all things to all people.

Scrapping it and going to an American style system won't work out cheaper for most people, as we see in America the premiums are eye watering if you are lucky enough to earn enough to pay them but then if you are young; fit and healthy you then have a choice whether to pay up or gamble on not getting ill.
My understanding is that some people even take jobs which don't pay as much or aren't as good as they can otherwise get if there is health cover with that job.

Where we could save money in this country is not by scrapping the NHS but by scrapping private medical companies like BUPA etc as they drive the overall cost up.
Doctors and consultants can earn more working for them so the NHS (Tax payer so you and I) then has to also pay through the nose to actually get staff
Getting rid of BUPA et al would drive the overall cost down in the long term, oh and these are the same doctors and consultants who have been trained by the NHS to begin with

BUPA claim to not have shareholders or make profit I believe so why the fuck do they even exist 
It won't be due to a load of philanthropists running the show wanting to do good things for the working populace, it's cause the people at the top can milk off Millions for themselves while driving the cost of medical care up, ultimately taking it from tax payers