Police raids in Luton

[daviemac]

This is clear, if the cops have signs of human trafficking and you are caught with your pants down, you will be arrested as part of the investigation, but once the details are verified they will let you go.

If you are arrested it goes on your record and would very likely show up in an enhanced DBS check, even if you're released with 'no further action'.

Oh and there's been plenty of raids in the north east, particularly Romanian brothels and Chinese massage parlours, its just been good fortune that punters weren't involved.

[Jonestown]

If you are arrested, charged and taken to court, then for most people the size of the fine will be a secondary consideration to having a criminal record for a serious sexual offence.

[20jay]

If you are arrested it goes on your record and would very likely show up in an enhanced DBS check, even if you're released with 'no further action'.

Oh and there's been plenty of raids in the north east, particularly Romanian brothels and Chinese massage parlours, its just been good fortune that punters weren't involved.

Yes, that too was understood, as I said, I'm a foreigner, I don't think that a criminal record can influence my life here as a visitor.

I was more concerned with the general guilt of no matter what kind of hookers you meet, the example with the British, or EU citizen as long there is no reliable Brexit. The women in the example would be old enough, probably have a bloke in the next room if there is trouble with customers, but will it be possible to speak of human trafficking in such a case ? Will they be able to charge you with an offense in such a case.. that's what I can't really believe

The case would be clearer for 20 year old Romanians who understand little or no English and are kept in the apartment or house like cattle.

If you are arrested, charged and taken to court, then for most people the size of the fine will be a secondary consideration to having a criminal record for a serious sexual offence.

I believe that for British people, if there is a criminal record, it could harm their careers.

[daviemac]

Yes, that too was understood, as I said, I'm a foreigner, I don't think that a criminal record can influence my life here as a visitor.

It's a bit of a waste of time trying to explain to you, but a criminal record, particularly for sex offences, can lead to you being deported.

Pointless going any further with this so I'll leave you to your own little world.   

[finn5555]

Just stay away from brothels and stick to indies that way you can’t go far wrong and less chance of falling foul of the law 

[20jay]

Addendum: And as I said, if the risks here in the UK are so high and exaggeratedly wide, that as you described here, there is no defense or mitigation, first of all,  what means then..

In Great Britain (England, Wales and Scotland), prostitution itself (the exchange of sexual services for money) is legal, but a number of related activities ...

If you have no way of reducing the debt,  because you may not know, because the woman has no chain around her neck ... You get such a blatant punishment abroad when the case is clear, and then well earned if you know that the girl has to work under duress.

I am now wondering, since you are really convinced that since you are so exaggerated punished in any case, still visiting woman, whose business should be more than dead in the UK, if punter has to fear existence-threatening consequences.

This is not against you here, rather the state that works with medieval methods which has nothing to do with a democratic constitutional state.

[20jay]

It's a bit of a waste of time trying to explain to you, but a criminal record, particularly for sex offences, can lead to you being deported.

Pointless going any further with this so I'll leave you to your own little world.   

Okay thanks for clarification...

[Bornslippy]

I hear that most raids are organised at a certain time of the night to maximise the amount of time they can hold the "offenders" or pimps. does anyone know if this is true?

[scutty brown]

I hear that most raids are organised at a certain time of the night to maximise the amount of time they can hold the "offenders" or pimps. does anyone know if this is true?

No its not true
Timing will depend on manpower, available dogpower, intelligence, when the crims are expected to be present, when its going to be easiest to break in without resistance, likelihood of firearms being present............

[Happyjose]

This is not against you here, rather the state that works with medieval methods which has nothing to do with a democratic constitutional state.

I’m pretty sure most on here support strong action by the state to stop trafficking

You should be particularly concerned. Reading your reviews you seem to encounter more women that show worrying signs than would be expected for the average prolific punter

I suspect it’s the type/nationality of the prostitutes you are selecting and the website you seem to use as first choice

[winkywanky]

"Strict liability crimes...The use of strict liability in criminal law is controversial as it means a person may be liable where they are not at fault or have taken all reasonable care to ensure compliance of the law (See in particular Callow v Tillstone). However, the harshness of strict liability in criminal law is generally tolerated as it brings practical benefits and is often used to provide a greater level of protection to the public in areas where it is perceived that there is a need to provide such protection."

Well that tells you all you need to know.

If societal pressure (either at a national or local level) decrees that itinerant/trafficked sex work is undesirable, then those who buy those services can be deemed to be in breach of the Law.

Also worth pointing out that ignorance of the Law (and in this case, of the fact that a girl is deemed to have been trafficked) is no defence on the part of the punter.

It doesn't get much clearer than that: if you're caught consorting with such a girl, even if you didn't know she was trafficked, if it's decided to prosecute you, you are fucked.

[20jay]

I’m pretty sure most on here support strong action by the state to stop trafficking

You should be particularly concerned. Reading your reviews you seem to encounter more women that show worrying signs than would be expected for the average prolific punter

I suspect it’s the type/nationality of the prostitutes you are selecting and the website you seem to use as first choice

I then assume that you can have a clear conscience, since the hookers you visit are 100% alright so you have nothing to fear in a raid. I have understood .

I don't believe in double standards. I visit women and pay like you. I have spoken privately to most of them and they were definitely not disgusted by me, almost all women who sell themselves are forced to do so, for economically reasons with certainty.

As already said, whoever brings morality into play here should look for a girlfriend or marry and stay loyal. There's nothing more to say about that .

[daviemac]

There's nothing more to say

That's the best thing you've said so far.

[winkywanky]

I then assume that you can have a clear conscience, since the hookers you visit are 100% alright so you have nothing to fear in a raid. I have understood .

I don't believe in double standards. I visit women and pay like you. I have spoken privately to most of them and they were definitely not disgusted by me, almost all women who sell themselves are forced to do so, for economically reasons with certainty.

As already said, whoever brings morality into play here should look for a girlfriend or marry and stay loyal. There's nothing more to say about that .

It's not about morality you fool, it's about what the law is and what the consequences might be for you, or for anyone else. And having that pointed out to you is merely a statement of fact, not a competition of who's 'morally' right or wrong.

Disliking a law doesn't mean it won't apply to you.

Are you living in cloud cuckooland?

[20jay]

Well that tells you all you need to know.

If societal pressure (either at a national or local level) decrees that itinerant/trafficked sex work is undesirable, then those who buy those services can be deemed to be in breach of the Law.

Also worth pointing out that ignorance of the Law (and in this case, of the fact that a girl is deemed to have been trafficked) is no defence on the part of the punter.

It doesn't get much clearer than that: if you're caught consorting with such a girl, even if you didn't know she was trafficked, if it's decided to prosecute you, you are fucked.

That is out of any question. For me it was about
-what is the penalty
- Would a 30 year old British or EU citizen working alone from home fall under the trafficking of human beings.

I have already answered the former in answer # 17 ( 1 grand )
-I have been taught here several times that there is NO defense (which is more than unworthy for a democratic constitutional state) I can hardly believe it, but okay.

That’s it.

[20jay]

That's the best thing you've said so far.

Okay I see ... I'm done then

[winkywanky]

It is what it is.

No amount of whingeing will change it.

Deal. With. It.

(And by arguing the toss you create confusion which may encourage others to fall foul of the Law also).

[20jay]

It's not about morality you fool, it's about what the law is and what the consequences might be for you, or for anyone else. And having that pointed out to you is merely a statement of fact, not a competition of who's 'morally' right or wrong.

Disliking a law doesn't mean it won't apply to you.

Are you living in cloud cuckooland?

It was about the instruction I would probably not visit the right hookers, No matter, it is probably a mistake to ask here. Thanks again , and as said I'm done now.

[Happyjose]

I then assume that you can have a clear conscience, since the hookers you visit are 100% alright so you have nothing to fear in a raid. I have understood .

I don't believe in double standards. I visit women and pay like you. I have spoken privately to most of them and they were definitely not disgusted by me, almost all women who sell themselves are forced to do so, for economically reasons with certainty.

As already said, whoever brings morality into play here should look for a girlfriend or marry and stay loyal. There's nothing more to say about that .

As I’ve stated, the experiences you have had, and that you have shared on here show that you are making bad choices.

This is not a case of general morality, but the issue of forced prostitution. Quite different things, and rightly treated differently by the law

This is over simplified, but imagine a scale. At the top end is enthusiastic consent, the type of SP who consistently offers excellent service (usually reflected in lots of positive reviews on here by varied punters). At this end of the scale you would find SP’s who understand the relationship between good service, the value of regulars, and the financial benefits of their choice.

At the other end of the scale is the piss poor service you would expect from coerced, trafficked, pimped, and those with serious addiction issues. The type of sex worker who probably doesn’t get to keep
much more than a fraction of the money paid to them (or more likely to their pimps/handlers)

The fact is that most of the SP’s you select would tend to reside at the bottom of the scale. That’s your choice, and so not only are you part of the problem, but given your membership of this forum, you should know better

What I and other punters do is more likely to be legal and less likely to facilitate trafficking.

That’s because we make better choices

.

[20jay]

It is what it is

Deal. With. It.

Deal. With. It...? Okay count how many times I wrote "if you want to avoid that, look for a girlfriend or a marriage"

My english is obviously good enough for a managerial position in the UK but too bad for this forum ... I apologize.

[winkywanky]

That is out of any question. For me it was about
-what is the penalty
- Would a 30 year old British or EU citizen working alone from home fall under the trafficking of human beings.

I have already answered the former in answer # 17 ( 1 grand )
-I have been taught here several times that there is NO defense (which is more than unworthy for a democratic constitutional state) I can hardly believe it, but okay.

That’s it.

You've answered nothing, like so many people these days you've merely Googled something and then chosen to either misinterpret/misunderstand it or ignore it, and then created confusion by giving your own 'opinion' on why it's wrong.

No wonder the world is full of Fake News these days, people choosing to believe shit or disbelieve what is clearly true and correct, and then choosing to spread it far and wide.

I don't know what 'sunny island' you perhaps come from, but your own personal understanding of what constitutes democracy is sadly deluded. Multiply that a few million times and it puts a bomb under what a nation has fought to establish for hundreds of years, and is the reason why so many people are desperate to get here in refrigerated lorries and little leaky little boats.

[Happyjose]

Deal. With. It...? Okay count how many times I wrote "if you want to avoid that, look for a girlfriend or a marriage"

My english is obviously good enough for a managerial position in the UK but too bad for this forum ... I apologize.

Managers generally have the ability to apply some critical analysis

Again, the way to avoid the issues discussed is to make better choices

The problem is in your comprehension

[winkywanky]

Deal. With. It...? Okay count how many times I wrote "if you want to avoid that, look for a girlfriend or a marriage"

My english is obviously good enough for a managerial position in the UK but too bad for this forum ... I apologize.

In which case I wish to register a compalint...there was a pubic hair in my Big Mac last week.

[winkywanky]

My english is obviously good enough for a managerial position in the UK but too bad for this forum ... I apologize.

Joking aside, you're missing the point.

This has nothing to do with the quality of your spoken or written English, this has everything to do with your willingness to understand the Law, and to abide by it.

[20jay]

In which case I wish to register a compalint...there was a pubic hair in my Big Mac last week.

  You never read what I wrote .. okay cheers folks

[winkywanky]

Good luck in your management role, wherever or whatever that may be.

[DouglasReynholm]

As others have said Section 53a of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 is clear in that punter 'ignorance' is not a defence.

However the stats are interesting as to how many punters have actually been prosecuted since its introduction in 2010. An initial surge has not been maintained although I cannot find any figures since 2016

External Link/Members Only

The initial surge was all there was, although I don't have a link to any data post 2016 either.

I could have been caught in a raid https://www.ukpunting.com/index.php?topic=230349.0 if I hadn't buggered off immediately - and they'd burst in and caught me giving her one. I'd have been 'guilty' of this 'offence'. However, if I'd had a recording or texts on my phone from the girl saying she was independent I think I'd have been let off. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd have been let off if caught in there anyway. Why?
External Link/Members Only
"a total of two million potential offenders every year. But shockingly only 61 have been prosecuted over the course of seven years."
I don't support the viewpoint of this site, but the above quote is a fact.

Also, 20jay sounds exactly like many managers I have met in Britain: his English isn't good enough to understand from this thread how British law is applied.

Also also, no-one's going to believe you eat Big Macs, Winky. We know you'd give cook the sack if she served you one.

[winkywanky]

I think 20jay understands the Law as discussed here perfectly, he's just using a spurious argument about the 'morality' of those who are pointing it out to him, as if we are in some way judging him for fucking WGs, and 'we're no better than him' because we're doing the same.

Don't shoot the messenger is the easiest way to describe it.

You may be quite correct in saying that very few punters have been prosecuted for fucking trafficked girls, but that's just another of the risk/reward factors you take into account on a punt. It's perhaps unlikely you'll become one of those 61, but who knows when there might be a crackdown to make an example? And even if you dont get prosecuted, how many guys are happy to go down the station to 'answer a few questions', even if they're sure they won't be?

As for the Big Macs, I hate to say it but three out of my last four punts were followed by a celebratory (and calorifically necessary) visit to the Great Satan of hamburgers. And a large chocolate shake to wash it down, too    .

[puntingpumping1920]

How do you identify them as independent?

 
For me if she is not British,
 
She provides outcalls
 
There is no middle man when contacting her 
 
She can speak English fluently
 
Her 30 min rates are not lower than £80 (London Prices).
 
I haven't seen this sex worker, but she clearly isn't independent: External Link/Members Only or External Link/Members Only

[Chorley]

Yet another reason to avoid Luton! 

[shagbambi]

It is a crime to buy sexual services from someone that is coerced or trafficked, no ifs, and or buts.

When you go to a flat full of non-english speaking Chinese girls/Latinas/Romanians that you know are on weekly rotas, does it not go through your mind that this may be high risk?  Despite the good pricing of such punts/venues I avoid them for the above said reason. 

Better to punt less and be more certain on the "origin" of services, though you will never know 100%, your risks will be lower.  Avoid the obvious.

[Chorley]

It is a crime to buy sexual services from someone that is coerced or trafficked, no ifs, and or buts.

When you go to a flat full of non-english speaking Chinese girls/Latinas/Romanians that you know are on weekly rotas, does it not go through your mind that this may be high risk?  Despite the good pricing of such punts/venues I avoid them for the above said reason. 

Better to punt less and be more certain on the "origin" of services, though you will never know 100%, your risks will be lower.  Avoid the obvious.

This 100% 

[bedhedred]

Not commenting on the legal angle here, but relaying an anecdote from my experience:

In Feb, I was visiting an SP whom I know is independent at a flat near Canary Wharf. I texted about 25 minutes prior to arrival. She texted back that she had to cancel.

When I asked why, she said there were a group of cops in the flat grilling one of the other girls about whether she was trafficked. I wished her good luck.

I hung around on the street for about 45 minutes and then visited her when the cops left for a reduced duration. She was fairly freaked out by the whole thing and guzzling wine to calm her nerves.
Her last client had just started his session when the raid took place and he had to walk out past the police with a coat over his head and get dressed in the bathroom. He was allowed to leave and she gave him back his money, so she was fucked off about that.

She told me the cops arrived posing as a client of a Latina SP who had rented a room in an EE house. They then wasted time trying to get a translator on the phone to ask the Latina if she was trafficked.

Anyway after interviewing all the SPs the police left with nothing to show for it. The girl I visited told them her profile is genuine and what she did with her client was a private matter. I would not have liked to walk in his shoes. The only upshot was that all the girls had to leave that flat and relocate.

[DouglasReynholm]

 
For me if she is not British,
 
She provides outcalls
 
There is no middle man when contacting her 
 
She can speak English fluently
 
Her 30 min rates are not lower than £80 (London Prices).
 
I haven't seen this sex worker, but she clearly isn't independent: External Link/Members Only or External Link/Members Only

Yes, whether they provide Outcalls is a key question. Sergei wouldn't let them out, would he. You could argue that if the girl has a driver, he might well be Sergei though.

[scutty brown]

Yes, whether they provide Outcalls is a key question. Sergei wouldn't let them out, would he. You could argue that if the girl has a driver, he might well be Sergei though.

A trafficked girl is actually more likely to only do outcalls: makes it harder for the police to find them.
Sergei or his mate do the couriering, the girl has little or no English, how is she going to ask for help? Especially if she's been intimidated and threatened?

[DouglasReynholm]

Is that a fact? Can you provide evidence?

On an outcall she can much more easily run away - logistically it's safer to keep them locked in a brothel?

[winkywanky]

I think perhaps it's not so much that they are virtually chained up/locked in a room, it's more that they only know their controllers, have no local knowledge whatsoever, speak no English and perhaps have had their passports confiscated.

They probably wouldn't want to run away even if they physically could. They feel isolated in their own little bubble.

[winkywanky]

I'm actually having second thoughts about the girl I saw last night  .

I would be horrified to find that a girl I saw had been forced and/or tricked into prostitution against her will.

I have no reason to feel that she was forced, she seemed very happy to be with me to earn her money, and was very giving. We even had some fun at the end where we engaged in some happy banter, initiated by her.

But in reality, do we ever really know with a girl who doesn't speak the language at all and has everything 'arranged for her'?

It's so tricky.

[daviemac]

Is that a fact? Can you provide evidence?

On an outcall she can much more easily run away - logistically it's safer to keep them locked in a brothel?

That's a very naive way to look at it.  All the Romanian and Chinese who had been trafficked in the north east hadn't rum away.   

Fear, being in a strange country with little or no knowledge of the language, no clue who to ask or where to go for help, pimp sitting outside, the list goes on as to why they stay.

[winkywanky]

I have no doubt that most of these type of girls are in effect itinerant migrant workers who know what they are getting into and will get paid a lot more than if they were picking fruit or working in a hot kitchen, washing dishes for hours on end.

But even these would technically be 'trafficked' since everything is 'taken care of' by others, from their journey here to their accommodation and working conditions.

[Happyjose]

Is that a fact? Can you provide evidence?

On an outcall she can much more easily run away - logistically it's safer to keep them locked in a brothel?

As i said earlier in the thread, if they and/or their families are in debt bondage back home, then running away would be pointless

and is one of the reasons why so many end up working again shortly after being 'rescued' by the authorities

[scutty brown]

Is that a fact? Can you provide evidence?

On an outcall she can much more easily run away - logistically it's safer to keep them locked in a brothel?

It is a fact, but I'm not going to provide evidence here - too sensitive.
You have to understand: brothels can be identified and raided. The only way to identify an outcall gang is to tail the car after a punt and that brings a host of legal, ethical and manpower issues. Trying to tail a car from for instance a Preston hotel to an address in Manchester is damned hard

[puntingpumping1920]

Is that a fact? Can you provide evidence?

On an outcall she can much more easily run away - logistically it's safer to keep them locked in a brothel?

 
Facts
 
A Pimp loses his control when he gives his worker freedom
 
Most of the trafficked girls are only doing in-calls

[daviemac]

 
Facts
 
A Pimp loses his control when he gives his worker freedom
 
Most of the trafficked girls are only doing in-calls

Absolute rubbish, at least that hasn't been the case in the NE. The brothels that were raided also did outcalls, the victims of sexual exploitation had freedom but were controlled by the abusers.

All the reasons that prove you wrong have been stated on here already. Thinking that you're safe from using trafficked escorts by doing outcalls is seriously flawed.

[puntingpumping1920]

Yes, whether they provide Outcalls is a key question. Sergei wouldn't let them out, would he. You could argue that if the girl has a driver, he might well be Sergei though.

 
Some pimps can be the drivers, but if I booked an escort for 6+ hours plus, is he going to be waiting around all day. 
 
I did add other requirements like her speaking english
 
We also have to take into consideration, that some of these pimps provide valuable services such as: property, advertising, investment and security.
 
For a girl in a foreign land that service can be invaluable.
 
It's only a problem when the pimps abuse their power

[daviemac]

 
Some pimps can be the drivers, but if I booked an escort for 6+ hours plus, is he going to be waiting around all day. 
 
I did add other requirements like her speaking english
 
We also have to take into consideration, that some of these pimps provide valuable services such as: property, advertising, investment and security.
 
For a girl in a foreign land that service can be invaluable.
 
It's only a problem when the pimps abuse their power

This thread isn't about girls working willingly for an agency or pimp, it's about, to quote -

 "Police raided 15 places on Tuesday night where they found Romanian and Hungarian women, in their 20s, believed to be victims of sexual exploitation.

The searches, in Luton, were part of an investigation into human trafficking, exploitation and modern day slavery."

There's nothing remotely valuable a pimp can offer an escort trafficked into the country and forced into prostitution.

[scutty brown]

 
Facts
 
A Pimp loses his control when he gives his worker freedom
 
Most of the trafficked girls are only doing in-calls

Thats deluded garbage

 
Some pimps can be the drivers, but if I booked an escort for 6+ hours plus, is he going to be waiting around all day. 
 

Quite possibly, yes
For a £600 payday of course he's going to wait around and protect his investment

[puntingpumping1920]

Absolute rubbish, at least that hasn't been the case in the NE. The brothels that were raided also did outcalls, the victims of sexual exploitation had freedom but were controlled by the abusers.

All the reasons that prove you wrong have been stated on here already. Thinking that you're safe from using trafficked escorts by doing outcalls is seriously flawed.

 
My post first post in this thread, I did imply I was referring about London
 
As a Londoner, they are clear signs which girls have an influence of organized criminals in their operations
 
I can post 50 girls right now that fits that requirement in London
 
I don't know what goes down in Sunderland or Newcastle
 
Lastly, no1 is right or wrong. We are posting generalizations.
 
We are not reaching conclusions by thinking critically about public statistical data that was released by Met Operations

[daviemac]

Lastly, no1 is right or wrong. We are posting generalizations.

You're contradicting yourself now, you are posting what you call facts.

 
Facts
 
A Pimp loses his control when he gives his worker freedom
 
Most of the trafficked girls are only doing in-calls

That is not an accurate fact, I don't care what part of the country you talk about.

[puntingpumping1920]

You're contradicting yourself now, you are posting what you call facts.

That is not an accurate fact, I don't care what part of the country you talk about.

 
I'm not contradicting myself
 
Like you and everyone else on this thread....I'm posting biased opinions about a contentious topic
 
No1 is posting statistical data from the Met Operations that could easily lead everyone to the same interpretation 
 
Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. Only one thing is right, and that is the data that Met Operations have, but nobody is posting that.