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Author Topic: The predominant skill that makes a truly great footballer.  (Read 1479 times)

Offline NIK

Inspired by the Maradona thread I was thinking what is it that makes a truly great player - the very greatest - and I believe the one overriding skill is the ability to dribble and go past players,which is not only the most exciting skill, but can take 2/3 opponents out of the game.

Obviously there are many other skills and great defenders don't really need this, but when you think of all the truly great players they had this precious ability. It is a skill which is increasingly rare today. I suppose the better organisation and fitness makes it harder, but it seems to me to be a dying art. Although obviously Messi and Ronaldo have it.

But Maradona and George Best had it in spades, as did Ryan Giggs and Gazza (at his brief peak). I have never really seen clips of Pele doing this, although of course there is much less film of him. Now every player's spit is recorded it is difficult to compare players who appeared more often than not off film cameras. Even Best probably played more games off camera than on.
This is also something you never saw David Beckham do, which for me rules him out from being among the true greats. I admit he was one of the greatest dead ball specialists, but how often did he go past anyone, let alone take two or three players out with a fantastic dribble as Ryan Giggs could do?

There are other great players, notably Zidane, who could go past a man or take an opponent out with a fantastic turn rather than a speedy dribble, but they still had this ability to beat an opponent and take them out of the game. Cruyff had both the clever turns and the speedy dribbling skill (as did Best).

The other thing today, perhaps linked to the dying art of dribbling, is that so many players seem to be one footed, which limits their ability to go past people either side or play effectively on either side of the pitch. Again the true greats could play anywhere. When Willie Morgan arrived at Man U from Burnley in 67 or 68 Best had to move to the left wing from the right, not because Morgan was better, but because he wasn't.

This lack of two feet was one of the major factors that limited England in their 'golden generation' period. Four excellent midfielder players of similar age in Scholes, Beckham, Lampard and Gerard who should have dominated international football, but never truly gelled because they were all predominantly right footed. Indeed, I don't think England have had a truly decent left sided player since Martin Peters, or Bobby Charlton, who was two footed. Robson, Hoddle, Gazza again all right footed.

Online chrishornx

. Indeed, I don't think England have had a truly decent left sided player since Martin Peters, or Bobby Charlton, who was two footed. Robson, Hoddle, Gazza again all right footed.

Le Saux, Cole, Waddle and Barnes may disagree with you

Offline sir wanksalot

Le Saux, Cole, Waddle and Barnes may disagree with you

I would disagree. I would say vision or "football intelligence" is the most importance quality. I have seen many speed merchants who dribble throughout the match and end up in cul de sacs because they couldn't see the obvious pass.

Offline king tarzan

Maradona
Gascoigne
Pele
Ronaldo
Ronaldhinio
Messi


Delightful to watch... Silky smooth grace...
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Offline Paris69

I would disagree. I would say vision or "football intelligence" is the most importance quality. I have seen many speed merchants who dribble throughout the match and end up in cul de sacs because they couldn't see the obvious pass.

While i agree with Sir W, the art of dribbling and 'skinning' defenders is of such importance. There's no real answer is there? Cos football intelligence in a left back isn't probably gonna win the game for a team...and that end product is what its all about eh. Unless you are of the 'it's entertainment' persuasion......
see what i mean. Unanswerable.

On the dribbling skill debate. I've seen, live, Ronaldo, Messi, (not Maradona) and Georgie boy in the flesh, so to speak. And for dribbling i'd even add in Jinkie Jimmy Johnstone of Celtic, who was amazing to watch.....

But no one thrilled like Georgie: He had the ability to take out whole defences/whole teams..and the fact he was seen to be the 5th Beatle sort of says it all eh.
As a schoolboy, i remember talking for a week on how Georgie was coming with Man Utd to play my local team - The excitement was palpable. He didn't disappoint.

Time can colour wash memories and make characters seem better than they were; but not in Georgie Boy's case...
Though he wasted his talent to an extent; he was one of the few footballers who transcended the sport. Players like Gazza (no matter that they were mega talented) dont even come close (unless you're under, say 45 and missed GB at his peak).

'where did it all go wrong George.....' as the story goes..

« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 02:57:32 pm by Paris69 »
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Offline The0neAnd0nly

This is also something you never saw David Beckham do, which for me rules him out from being among the true greats. I admit he was one of the greatest dead ball specialists, but how often did he go past anyone, let alone take two or three players out with a fantastic dribble as Ryan Giggs could do?

Agree with your whole post - the art of dribbling seems to be dying as much more about quick passing and intricate play now

I would state that I vividly remember David Beckham getting past many players 1v1 before either shooting or crossing. If you watch his assists for Man U he often got past a player quite easily but agree he never seemed to do it against several as didnt have that turn of pace. I'm not a Manure fan btw  :D

Coincidentally I watched the Gazza documentary "Gascoigne" before I heard about Maradona yesterday afternoon. Remember Euro 96 and the goal against the Jocks but was amazed to learned he finished 4th in the Ballon Dor for '90.

Offline Dick Cheese

Speed of thought and seeing opportunity when it arises as well as ability separates the very best.

Offline Sheraton

The ability to dribble past players is a dying art, such ability is always a crowd pleaser and gets fans off their seats.  Though the game has moved on and players nowadays are encouraged to pass, pass, pass, there are a ew current players who have that ability to beat a player with a drop of the shoulder, Messi is clearly one, Grealish also looks to have this in his locker, as does  N'Dembele. 

Offline smiths

For me a truly great footballer has the ball at his feet under such control its like its on a piece of string and he can do little wrong unless chopped down. Players with this sort of control I have seen on TV have been Pele. Maradona, Cryuff, Gasgoine for a brief time, Messi, Ronaldo and George Best as a young man at Man Utd. In those days Best practised for hours and hours to perfect his technique. Never tested at World Cup level of course.

Overall the best player of those lot was Pele, played at World Cup Level and won it and his overall movement was amazing, he could turn on a pin and tackle and dribble, his opponents often resorting to chopping him down. He said the best defender he ever faced was Bobby Moore and never was this shown clearer than at the 1970 World Cup when Moore played a blinder, though England still lost, hard to beat near perfection in a team.

Offline willie loman

 A low centre of gravity is possiblity of the greatest asset a footballer can have, surprisingly difficult to knock maradona or messi off the ball, very few candidates for great player were that tall.

Online chrishornx

I would disagree. I would say vision or "football intelligence" is the most importance quality. I have seen many speed merchants who dribble throughout the match and end up in cul de sacs because they couldn't see the obvious pass.

so you disagree that Cole was a decent left footed player -  that is the context of my remark not dribbling skills

I have never suggested the most importanct quality I was merely responding to the comment about no decent left footed England player since Peters etc

Online mr.bluesky

Well before my time but Stanley Mathews is another that falls into the category of players who could beat defenders with ease. Best , Barnes, and of the modern era Christiano Ronaldo also fall into that category . I don't think John Barnes ever re-produced his Liverpool form for England on a consistent  basis and the same could be said of Messi for Argentina. He doesn't seem to be as effective for his national team as he does for Barcelona.  Maradona was just as effective playing for both club and country.

Offline ratedj

Simplistically speaking it’s mindset/mentality. If you go through time you will find that every great player has possessed a strong mentality.

If we are to focus on the attacking element of the game, there are so many strands that come together to produce a world class player that it is difficult to pinpoint one aspect. Personally, I have always thought that the difference between good and great players is that great players are able to paint the most vivid pictures in their mind.

Intelligence is an important component. You will have some players who have quick feet but a slow mind, others who have a quick mind but slow feet, and then those who have a quick mind and quick feet. Someone like Iniesta was incredible to watch in his prime, as were Xavi and Bergkamp. These players were not blessed with an inordinate amount of pace that saw them bypass players with relative ease, but their skill and football intelligence meant that they were invariably one step ahead of their opponents. 

There are a few special talents who are able to combine power, pace, skill and football intelligence. As a youngster, the greatest player I ever saw was Ronaldo (O Fenômeno) who completely opened my eyes to what was possible on a football pitch.

Offline ratedj

A low centre of gravity is possiblity of the greatest asset a footballer can have, surprisingly difficult to knock maradona or messi off the ball, very few candidates for great player were that tall.

Zidane, Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldo and Henry were (in the case of Cristiano Ronaldo, is) six foot or over.

Online mr.bluesky

Zidane, Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldo and Henry were (in the case of Cristiano Ronaldo, is) six foot or over.

Not forgetting the late great Johan Cruyff  who seems to have been overlooked

Offline ratedj

Not forgetting the late great Johan Cruyff  who seems to have been overlooked

Of course. There are plenty of others who I have missed.

Offline willie loman

Zidane, Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldo and Henry were (in the case of Cristiano Ronaldo, is) six foot or over.
,

When the worlds greatest ever are discussed, it usually 3 names that trip off the tongue, maradona, messi and pele, the first 2 are small, as for Pele, at that epoque he was amazing strong , as for messi and maradona, plenty of examples of them carrying a team, Pele was a great among a team of greats.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 07:07:49 pm by willie loman »

Online chrishornx

Not forgetting the late great Johan Cruyff  who seems to have been overlooked

6'    Cruyff ??

not convinced

Offline willie loman

6'    Cruyff ??

not convinced

at least 6ft, dont think there has ever been a dutch footballler under 6ft

Offline GingerNuts

at least 6ft, dont think there has ever been a dutch footballler under 6ft

5' 10", you're not off to a good start.

Online daviemac

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at least 6ft, dont think there has ever been a dutch footballler under 6ft
Cruyff was 5'10"  Patrick van Aanholt, currently playing 5'10", Arjen Robben 5'11"   :unknown:

Marc Overmars 5'8"
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 07:21:20 pm by daviemac »

Online chrishornx

at least 6ft, dont think there has ever been a dutch footballler under 6ft

hmmmmm

Online chrishornx

Cruyff was 5'10"  Patrick van Aanholt, currently playing 5'10", Arjen Robben 5'11"   :unknown:

Marc Overmars 5'8"

basically a bunch of dwarfs

Online mr.bluesky

Cruyff was 5'10"  Patrick van Aanholt, currently playing 5'10", Arjen Robben 5'11"   :unknown:

Marc Overmars 5'8"

Cruyff was quite skinny as a player which probably made him look taller than he actually was. Maradona wasn't tall but very stocky

Offline Gordon Bennett

It's either a low centre of gravity or unusually powerful and large buttocks. The greatest footballers have both. I remember seeing John Barnes in the changing rooms of Wade Smith clothing shop years ago and being struck by the breadth of his arse, it was really wide.

Online mr.bluesky

,

When the worlds greatest ever are discussed, it usually 3 names that trip off the tongue, maradona, messi and pele, the first 2 are small, as for Pele, at that epoque he was amazing strong , as for messi and maradona, plenty of examples of them carrying a team, Pele was a great among a team of greats.

That 1970 Brazil team that won the world cup was probably the best international team I have ever seen. Full of world class players. Absolutely destroyed Italy in the final  who weren't a bad team themselves.

Online chrishornx

It's either a low centre of gravity or unusually powerful and large buttocks. The greatest footballers have both. I remember seeing John Barnes in the changing rooms of Wade Smith clothing shop years ago and being struck by the breadth of his arse, it was really wide.

calm down tiger

Online mr.bluesky

It's either a low centre of gravity or unusually powerful and large buttocks. The greatest footballers have both. I remember seeing John Barnes in the changing rooms of Wade Smith clothing shop years ago and being struck by the breadth of his arse, it was really wide.

No surprise there.  Barnes put on a hell of a lot of weight when he packed up playing like a lot of footballers do.



Offline willie loman

It's either a low centre of gravity or unusually powerful and large buttocks. The greatest footballers have both. I remember seeing John Barnes in the changing rooms of Wade Smith clothing shop years ago and being struck by the breadth of his arse, it was really wide.

read recently that all top sprinters have arses that are noticeably  larger than the average model, went to school with a boy who was in the olympics for britain, and he certainly had a huge arse, even played in the same team as him, might explain some of my hostility to professional athletes, our so called role models, much admired by many on here.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2020, 08:00:23 pm by willie loman »

Offline Paris69

That 1970 Brazil team that won the world cup was probably the best international team I have ever seen. Full of world class players. Absolutely destroyed Italy in the final  who weren't a bad team themselves.

Yeah, agree. When you watched the 1970 World Cup in Mexico, and 'that' Brazil team and Pele.... little did we know that this was as good as its ever gonna get
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Offline Paris69

,

When the worlds greatest ever are discussed, it usually 3 names that trip off the tongue, maradona, messi and pele, the first 2 are small, as for Pele, at that epoque he was amazing strong , as for messi and maradona, plenty of examples of them carrying a team, Pele was a great among a team of greats.

Quite simply, Pele was just great! He would have been world class if he'd only played for Tranent reserves ......
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Offline willie loman

Yeah, agree. When you watched the 1970 World Cup in Mexico, and 'that' Brazil team and Pele.... little did we know that this was as good as its ever gonna get

remember the back heel that gifted the italians their goal, even at top level there are an amazing amounts of misplaced passes

Offline Paris69

read recently that all top sprinters have arses that are noticeably  larger than the average model, went to school with a boy who was in the olympics for britain, and he certainly had a huge arse, even played in the same team as him, might explain some of my hostility to professional athletes, our so called role models, much admired by many on here.

Dunno about this..... maybes it's cos of the hamstring/glute development.... But have you seen Dina Asher-Smith's ass...... No complaints from me...
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Offline Paris69

remember the back heel that gifted the italians their goal, even at top level there are an amazing amounts of misplaced passes

As Salvador Dali said, 'Don't worry about perfection; you'll never achieve it'.... Yes, Brazil '70 weren't perfect; just close to it.
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Offline Yankee21

The great players have the biggest impact on their teams.
They elevate the collective around them.

Offline Thephoenix

I don't think many modern players have the dribbling ability of Mathews or Finney, who could beat players by dribbling from a standing start.
Players like Sadio Mane and Mo Salah can dribble, but they tend to beat players by a sudden burst of pace...likewise Messi.

But a lot of players don't have the courage to run ar players now, for fear of giving the ball away, particularly in midfield.

I think in the modern game of slick one touch passing, the main attribute is always having an awareness of who's around you, and the ability to think two or three moves ahead to unlock defences.

Offline Gordon Bennett

Football keeps evolving. You cannot compare a player from the 60s with one from the 80s and one from 00s. If you breathe on Messi he will sink to his knees and be awarded a free-kick, today's football is virtually non-contact. 40+ years ago you could physically assault opponents without sanction.
You can't even use medals to rank them because Phil Neal comes into serious contention :lol:

Offline Paris69

Football keeps evolving. You cannot compare a player from the 60s with one from the 80s and one from 00s. If you breathe on Messi he will sink to his knees and be awarded a free-kick, today's football is virtually non-contact. 40+ years ago you could physically assault opponents without sanction.
You can't even use medals to rank them because Phil Neal comes into serious contention :lol:

Yeah, look at the way Chopper Harris tried to decapitate Georgie boy... and a.n.others
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Offline willie loman

Football keeps evolving. You cannot compare a player from the 60s with one from the 80s and one from 00s. If you breathe on Messi he will sink to his knees and be awarded a free-kick, today's football is virtually non-contact. 40+ years ago you could physically assault opponents without sanction.
You can't even use medals to rank them because Phil Neal comes into serious contention :lol:

go on you tube, and you will see the astonishing savagery that maradonna was subject to, just about every player tried to foul him, i personally am happy the football has little time for chopper harris.

Offline winkywanky

I don't think many modern players have the dribbling ability of Mathews or Finney, who could beat players by dribbling from a standing start.
Players like Sadio Mane and Mo Salah can dribble, but they tend to beat players by a sudden burst of pace...likewise Messi.

But a lot of players don't have the courage to run ar players now, for fear of giving the ball away, particularly in midfield.

I think in the modern game of slick one touch passing, the main attribute is always having an awareness of who's around you, and the ability to think two or three moves ahead to unlock defences.


I have to say, whenever I see any old footage of Stanley Matthews and the like, it always seems painfully slow.

But of course in those days the pitches were awful (quagmires in deep winter), the footballs were insanely heavy, and the boots the players wore as a consequence were like Army issue boots for squarebashing. I have no doubt whatsoever that players like Matthews were highly gifted geniuses of their day (and would probably also have been in the modern game) but comparisons between the eras is very difficult.

Perhaps also worth mentioning that Matthews played first class football until he was nearly 50, didn't he? The guy was a legend alright. Although I guess that's one thing that no one would have a chance in hell of doing now, the speed of the game is so great.

Offline winkywanky

go on you tube, and you will see the astonishing savagery that maradonna was subject to, just about every player tried to foul him, i personally am happy the football has little time for chopper harris.


None worse than Billy Bremner of course. He made Chopper Harris look like Margot Fonteyn at a women's institute tea party.

Offline willie loman


None worse than Billy Bremner of course. He made Chopper Harris look like Margot Fonteyn at a women's institute tea party.

perhaps, but bremner brought a bit more to the party than chopper harris, he would actually dribble out of his own penalty box, check out scotland england 1967 on you tube, a very young billy brenmer.

Offline winkywanky

I assume you don't mean dribbling out the corner of his mouth after a heavy night before?  :D

Have you seen The Damned United? Great film (and no, Bremner wasn't the only nasty piece of work).

Offline willie loman

I assume you don't mean dribbling out the corner of his mouth after a heavy night before?  :D

Have you seen The Damned United? Great film (and no, Bremner wasn't the only nasty piece of work).

he was a heavy smoker too, will check out the novel.

Offline The Film Director


None worse than Billy Bremner of course. He made Chopper Harris look like Margot Fonteyn at a women's institute tea party.

Johhny Giles also had a useful right hook IIRC, flooring Keegan in that 'Charity' Shield game.  :lol:

Offline Paris69

perhaps, but bremner brought a bit more to the party than chopper harris, he would actually dribble out of his own penalty box, check out scotland england 1967 on you tube, a very young billy brenmer.

Do you think so? Don't agree, if you mean 'hardness'. Bremner was an agitator not a 'real fighter'... a bit like Norman Hunter (ffs, Frannie Lee done him). Chopper was a proper hard guy on and off the pitch.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 10:25:32 am by Paris69 »
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Offline ulstersubbie

Dave Mackay, Tommy Smith, Jimmy Case etc, none of them would last the full ninety minutes in today's game. Football was a lot more brutal in years gone by.

Offline Paris69

Dave Mackay, Tommy Smith, Jimmy Case etc, none of them would last the full ninety minutes in today's game. Football was a lot more brutal in years gone by.

Totally agree.. the three you named were pure 'granite'....
The other side of your coin is that many/most, if not all of todays players wouldn't have lasted the full 90 minutes in days of yore.
Imagine Harry Kane being marked by Smithy/Mackay or Chopper....  3 tackles, 3 minutes gone and Kane would be limping off/stretchered off or crying off... Just chose HK as an example...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 02:01:53 pm by Paris69 »
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Offline ulstersubbie

Totally agree.. the three you named were pure 'granite'....
The other side of your coin is that many/most, if not all of todays players wouldn't have lasted the full 90 minutes in days of yore.
Imagine Harry Kane being marked by Smithy/Mackay or Chopper....  3 tackles, 3 minutes gone and Kane would be limping off/stretchered off or crying off... Just chose HK as an example...

Fair point!    :hi:

Offline winkywanky

Johhny Giles also had a useful right hook IIRC, flooring Keegan in that 'Charity' Shield game.  :lol:


Yes! De little Oirish get! And I well remember that! (I'm assuming having more than a passing interest in Film, you have seen the Michael Sheen film about Leeds Utd?)

For the purposes of my reply to willie I did specifically choose a Scot  ;).