Another madman with a knife!

[Watts.E.Dunn]

So mad matey charging thru Hainult has now murdered a 14 year old boy:(

In a film clip we see the old bill shouting to him drop it drop it!

Why can't we have the police armed in case the same happens as did in Austriala the other week?, he contfronted an armed police officer it was game over for him.

Otherwise she may well have been murdered too?...

[badsin]

There's a lot of armed police in London. However they get treated rather poorly by their employer.
I think in recent times many armed police have requested to go back to normal duties.

[mr.bluesky]

If not armed then do they not have tazers
 

[jackdaw]

If not armed then do they not have tazers
 

A quick Google suggests that tasers are only issued to firearms licensed officers alongside guns to carry out specific operations…effectively they are only there to give an officer another option instead of using a gun, once he’s evaluated best way forward for that particular incident.

Blimey..put that in a long winded way, but basically typical U.K. cop doesn’t routinely carry a taser, anymore than a gun.

It’s a very subjective view, but on times when I’ve been in countries where cops routinely carry guns, always felt less safe rather than more safe.

[PepeMAGA]

I think it's ok for police to have firearms providing they have the training and regular drills etc. But giving them to standard police would be a bad idea.
Regarding the guy, he literally seems to be a madman, doesn't seem to be gang related or terrorism.

[daviemac]

A quick Google suggests that tasers are only issued to firearms licensed officers alongside guns to carry out specific operations…effectively they are only there to give an officer another option instead of using a gun, once he’s evaluated best way forward for that particular incident.

Blimey..put that in a long winded way, but basically typical U.K. cop doesn’t routinely carry a taser, anymore than a gun.

It’s a very subjective view, but on times when I’ve been in countries where cops routinely carry guns, always felt less safe rather than more safe.

Not true, it isn't only firearms officers who carry tasers now but those who do carry them have to undergo taser training.

Watch any of those police programs and you'll see there's loads of officers who routinely carry them.

[jackdaw]

Not true, it isn't only firearms officers who carry tasers now but those who do carry them have to undergo taser training.

Watch any of those police programs and you'll see there's loads of officers who routinely carry them.

Must admit until I did the google search my understanding was same as yours. Its maybe something that is different from one force to another, or maybe just a case where Dr Google gives incorrect gen.

Anyway link that caused me to write what I did is:-

External Link/Members Only

(Fairly old policy document, so one possibilty is that Met policy has changed, but for some reason a more up to date policy is not coming up on my searches.)

[daviemac]

Must admit until I did the google search my understanding was same as yours. Its maybe something that is different from one force to another, or maybe just a case where Dr Google gives incorrect gen.

Anyway link that caused me to write what I did is:-

External Link/Members Only

(Fairly old policy document, so one possibilty is that Met policy has changed, but for some reason a more up to date policy is not coming up on my searches.)

That's from nearly 20 years ago, here's on from 2020 talking about the new taser 7 model - External Link/Members Only

Here's one from 2022 saying special constables should be issued with tasers - External Link/Members Only and includes the following statement.

"They were introduced in the UK in 2003, initially limited to firearms officers.

Their use was extended in 2008, to non-firearms officers who complete the required training."

Like I said watch any of the police programs and you will see ordinary patrol officers testing their tasers prior to going on patrol and at times using them and they aren't firearm officers.

Edit

Report from 2020 in my local paper states taser availability for officers in my area are to increase from 650 to just under 1,900 - External Link/Members Only

[jackdaw]

That's from nearly 20 years ago, here's on from 2020 talking about the new taser 7 model - External Link/Members Only

Here's one from 2022 saying special constables should be issued with tasers - External Link/Members Only and includes the following statement.

"They were introduced in the UK in 2003, initially limited to firearms officers.

Their use was extended in 2008, to non-firearms officers who complete the required training."

Like I said watch any of the police programs and you will see ordinary patrol officers testing their tasers prior to going on patrol and at times using them and they aren't firearm officers.

Cheers for info. Apart from watching a few police programs, sounds like I need to sharpen my internet search skills.

[Dipper]

Something seems to not add up with this. Why’s it not a live bullet remedy ? Or is there lots we’ll never be told or know. 

[finn5555]

Just arm all the police and madmen like this can be exterminated thus one hopes saving life’s and less of a financial burden to tax payers when they are jailed 👊

[berksboy]

So looks like a WPC took him down with a taser , so very well done her .

External Link/Members Only

Looking at it again did the male officer coming from the LHS as you look get him first ?

[Yankee21]

He was tasered
External Link/Members Only

[chrishornx]

Not true, it isn't only firearms officers who carry tasers now but those who do carry them have to undergo taser training.

Watch any of those police programs and you'll see there's loads of officers who routinely carry them.

absolutely correct

[spiralnotebook]

Judging that so many police officers are physically underwhelming and/or look like youth club refugees I’d say they needed whatever help they could get.

[mr.bluesky]

Judging that so many police officers are physically underwhelming and/or look like youth club refugees I’d say they needed whatever help they could get.

Going back to my time growing up I always thought coppers had to be a certain height to get into the police force  (lower for females)  and really physically fit, it seems standards have dropped off a lot nowdays   

[george r]

Going back to my time growing up I always thought coppers had to be a certain height to get into the police force  (lower for females)  and really physically fit, it seems standards have dropped off a lot nowdays   

They did but dropped the height requirement yrs ago , thank God they had tasers 

[Stevelondon]

Whatever is being said above. Those officers still had to deal with a maniac waving a fucking knife/sword around.

All through my working life. I can’t recall ever having to do that.

Well there was that road rage incident where that woman hit me with her hand bag. 

[Blackpool Rock]

Going back to my time growing up I always thought coppers had to be a certain height to get into the police force  (lower for females)  and really physically fit, it seems standards have dropped off a lot nowdays   

They struggle to recruit and have struggled for a long time so have to reduce the criteria otherwise the pool of applicants is far too small.

It used to be that the police attracted people who were reasonably bright / competent and physically fit, the sort of people who left school and didn't quite make or want to go to University (back in the days when around the 10% of brightest kids went and before you could get a degree in the history of traffic cones or whatever shit they dream up that doesn't actually lead to a decent job  )

Most of these were from a working class type background and with incremental pay rises for years served and a couple of promotions they could earn a decent wage and pension with early retirement
My understanding is that these days they are looking for Uni graduates who unfortunately don't want to get their hands dirty, and let's face it you are often dealing with the scummiest of the scum of our great British society 

Who would want to be a copper these days 
As soon as you make a mistake you are in the shit and there's normally a crowd surrounding you filming it and then selectively editing or posting clips on social media
The recent clip of an officer discussing with a Jewish guy at a Palestinian march why he couldn't cross the road is a prime example, TBH the copper was far too tolerant and probably should have had him carted off long before he made his comment which was instantly picked up on and apparently became the only issue 

Shoot or tazer someone then get disciplined as the info about them carrying a gun turns out to be wrong or they've just ditched it, alternatively don't shoot or tazer them and get shot yourself 

 

[Doc Holliday]

They did but dropped the height requirement yrs ago , thank God they had tasers 

Indeed, although the doorbell footage also show firearms officers in the background joining the melee. Physical fitness is of minor relevance with someone yielding a sword (or even a knife) and any self defence/martial arts etc expert will tell you your first line of defence is to run/find a safe place. Your second line of defence is to try and even things up in some way, which in this case meant a taser.

[petermisc]

They struggle to recruit and have struggled for a long time so have to reduce the criteria otherwise the pool of applicants is far too small.

It used to be that the police attracted people who were reasonably bright / competent and physically fit, the sort of people who left school and didn't quite make or want to go to University (back in the days when around the 10% of brightest kids went and before you could get a degree in the history of traffic cones or whatever shit they dream up that doesn't actually lead to a decent job  )

Most of these were from a working class type background and with incremental pay rises for years served and a couple of promotions they could earn a decent wage and pension with early retirement
My understanding is that these days they are looking for Uni graduates who unfortunately don't want to get their hands dirty, and let's face it you are often dealing with the scummiest of the scum of our great British society 

Who would want to be a copper these days 
As soon as you make a mistake you are in the shit and there's normally a crowd surrounding you filming it and then selectively editing or posting clips on social media
The recent clip of an officer discussing with a Jewish guy at a Palestinian march why he couldn't cross the road is a prime example, TBH the copper was far too tolerant and probably should have had him carted off long before he made his comment which was instantly picked up on and apparently became the only issue 

Shoot or tazer someone then get disciplined as the info about them carrying a gun turns out to be wrong or they've just ditched it, alternatively don't shoot or tazer them and get shot yourself 

Agree with you about that clip, there was clearly more to that encounter than made the press.  The fact that someone was already filming it says a lot.

But disagree with you about the uni graduates.  Nowadays, if you want someone bright, you are almost inevitably looking for graduates, as almost everybody goes to uni.  They may have reduced the height requirement, but they still demand high physical fitness.  I know a number of young officers, both male and female, relatives and friends of the family, and all are physically fit, and not afraid to get stuck in.  One even had trouble meeting the fitness standard, despite being fit and healthy and regularly exercising.

They also all have a no nonsense demeanor about them, which is probably more important than any height requirement. 

[daviemac]

It should be noted that the suspect had been tasered by an unarmed female officer and was on the ground and handcuffed long before armed response arrived.

[Doc Holliday]

It should be noted that the suspect had been tasered by an unarmed female officer and was on the ground and handcuffed long before armed response arrived.

Not sure what you mean by 'long before' Davie? The doorbell footage shows five armed officers arriving 30 seconds after he was hit by tasers. He was hit three times, the third time by the female officer.

External Link/Members Only

[daviemac]

Not sure what you mean by 'long before' Davie? The doorbell footage shows five armed officers arriving 30 seconds after he was hit by tasers. He was hit three times, the third time by the female officer.

External Link/Members Only

They'd been chasing him for ages before they got him cornered and tasered, there's footage of him on a shed or garage roof and the officers shouting at him and below is him hiding in a garden, don't forget he'd killed someone and injured several others all before armed response got there.

External Link/Members Only

[Colston36]

Just arm all the police and madmen like this can be exterminated thus one hopes saving life’s and less of a financial burden to tax payers when they are jailed 👊

And in no time it'll be just like the good old USA

[Ghost89]

A recent article I read regarding Met armed response stated that armed officers felt they weren’t protected when it came to responding to a “regular incident” such as the recent sword incident. They were more comfortable dealing and responding to a terrorist incident as they knew the public, media and any internal investigation would support them after weapons were discharged. It was felt less likely for any other incident   .

[badsin]

Just arm all the police and madmen like this can be exterminated thus one hopes saving life’s and less of a financial burden to tax payers when they are jailed 👊

Many coppers don't want to be armed, I believe it's voluntary at the moment?

[DastardlyDick]

They did but dropped the height requirement yrs ago

They had to drop the height requirements as it was deemed a barrier to recruiting from some ethnic groups. City of London Police had a requirement of 6' 1" (1.85m) back in the day.

[Dipper]

And in no time it'll be just like the good old USA

Rather that than the deranged running around on knife rampages more regularly. I doubt the boy who didn’t see his fifteenth year and loved ones would care if they’d known arming more rozzers would’ve saved him.

[ulstersubbie]

They had to drop the height requirements as it was deemed a barrier to recruiting from some ethnic groups. City of London Police had a requirement of 6' 1" (1.85m) back in the day.

I believe that to be the case. I'm 6' 2", rarely do I see coppers here in Glasgow who are my height or significantly taller, seems they'll take anybody these days!

[petermisc]

Rather that than the deranged running around on knife rampages more regularly. I doubt the boy who didn’t see his fifteenth year and loved ones would care if they’d known arming more rozzers would’ve saved him.

But what about all the innocent people and their loved ones who would inevitably suffer when the police get it wrong?  Put simply, the more police that are armed, the more mistakes will be made.

[Dipper]

But what about all the innocent people and their loved ones who would inevitably suffer when the police get it wrong?  Put simply, the more police that are armed, the more mistakes will be made.

To me it should be a case by case basis. If the events the press have painted are accurate, then why didn’t this merit an armed response anyway. 

[Doc Holliday]

Rather that than the deranged running around on knife rampages more regularly. I doubt the boy who didn’t see his fifteenth year and loved ones would care if they’d known arming more rozzers would’ve saved him.

It wouldn't have saved him though as no police were present when he was attacked. It may or may not have prevented the Police Officers from being injured? The attacker would then probably be dead though and not in custody?

[Dipper]

So the best HM govt and whoever else can offer towards public safety during life/death incidents is someone shouting “lock your doors!” and a toy town taser. Worrying.

[berksboy]

"If the events the press have painted are accurate, then why didn’t this merit an armed response anyway."

Were does it say it did not get a armed response ? There are only so many ARVs so its unlikely they will me first on the scene. Do we need more armed cops ? Absolutely we do but who would want  to do it the way they get treated when they shot someone ? Lawyers looking at film footage in slow motion when the cop has to make the call in real time.

[berksboy]

It wouldn't have saved him though as no police were present when he was attacked. It may or may not have prevented the Police Officers from being injured? The attacker would then probably be dead though and not in custody?

  You are right the poor boy was killed before any cops were on the scene , but i am sure a good armed cop would not have got injured in the way the poor police offcers did. If it means the attacker is shot dead so be it , i think thats a price worth paying.

[petermisc]

So the best HM govt and whoever else can offer towards public safety during life/death incidents is someone shouting “lock your doors!” and a toy town taser. Worrying.

It wasn't, armed officers were deployed as backup.

But importantly, the officers with the tasers successfully dealt with the attacker - there was no need to shoot him dead.  If your response to every suspected attacker is to shoot them, then that is guaranteed to end up with innocent people getting shot as happens in the US.

[finn5555]

 there was no need to shoot him dead.   

So if he broke into your house and attacked you, which he did to a couple, you wouldn't want him shot dead before attacking you with the sword 

[lostandfound]

So the best HM govt and whoever else can offer towards public safety during life/death incidents is someone shouting “lock your doors!” and a toy town taser. Worrying.

This is a civilised country. Incidents like this are rare and will most likely remain so. We can be accused of being wimpy in the immediate response to a rare incident of extreme violence. That's the choice we make.

[Dipper]

This is a civilised country. Incidents like this are rare and will most likely remain so. We can be accused of being wimpy in the immediate response to a rare incident of extreme violence. That's the choice we make.

“Civilised” you say 

[Dipper]

It wouldn't have saved him though as no police were present when he was attacked. It may or may not have prevented the Police Officers from being injured? The attacker would then probably be dead though and not in custody?

Surely this sort of murderer needs the deterrent of certain death, to at least make them think twice.

[lostandfound]

“Civilised” you say 

I do say. One of the most civilised in the world. Hard to argue it any other way IMO.

[Doc Holliday]

Surely this sort of murderer needs the deterrent of certain death, to at least make them think twice.

Whilst we don't yet know the full circumstances/background it would be reasonable speculation to assume that 'this sort of murderer' is unlikely to have been experiencing rational thought processes?

[hendrix]

Surely this sort of murderer needs the deterrent of certain death, to at least make them think twice.

They're not thinking at all. Which is why the death penalty in the USA (over 25 states I think) hasn't done much other than result in some terrible miscarriages of justice.

[Dipper]

They're not thinking at all. Which is why the death penalty in the USA (over 25 states I think) hasn't done much other than result in some terrible miscarriages of justice.

I don’t think the two things are at all comparable.

[petermisc]

So if he broke into your house and attacked you, which he did to a couple, you wouldn't want him shot dead before attacking you with the sword 

If tasering is sufficient stop him, then no I wouldn't want him shot.  Because then there would be the very real possibility that I could be accidentally shot.  As I say, far too many incidents in the US where police have accidentally or mistakenly shot the wrong person.

[petermisc]

Surely this sort of murderer needs the deterrent of certain death, to at least make them think twice.

It is not the job of the police to meet out justice, that is the job of the courts.  The police's job is to get the perpetrator to court.  Physical force should be a last resort, where necessary to protect life.  Unfortunately far too often in the US it seems to be the first resort, with far too many tragic consequences.

[daviemac]

If tasering is sufficient stop him, then no I wouldn't want him shot.  Because then there would be the very real possibility that I could be accidentally shot.  As I say, far too many incidents in the US where police have accidentally or mistakenly shot the wrong person.

This is the way it should be, lethal force as a last resort not a first reaction.

A stun grenade, a baton round and a Taser were used to try to stop a man before police shot him dead, investigators said.

External Link/Members Only

[finn5555]

This is the way it should be, lethal force as a last resort not a first reaction.

Personally if he broke into my house with a sword I would happily see him shot dead.

[petermisc]

Personally if he broke into my house with a sword I would happily see him shot dead.

And would you be happy if they also shot you while they were about it?