Should prostitution be a normal profession?

[peter purves]

This story is from Should prostitution be a normal profession?, an episode of Business Daily on the BBC World Service. It was presented by Ed Butler and produced by Laurence Knight.

External Link/Members Only

[Itsnotshy]

Yes it should, but in the current intolerant climate towards sex I think we have to accept that things will only get worse.
Monotheism and radical feminism are unlikely bedfellows but they do share one thing, a dislike of sex and a belief that the state should  enforce their view of sexual morality.
We're all just going to have to learn to dodge the police in the future, like the Americans have been doing for decades, and Swedes since 1999.
For me my only options are paying or celibacy, I'm unattractive, partially disabled, socially awkward, and old.
Sometimes life just stinks and you have to learn to cope with societies intolerance.
PS Shame if the Dutch go down the sex buyer route they've always been one of the more sexually liberal countries

[wristjob]

Monotheism and radical feminism are unlikely bedfellows but they do share one thing, a dislike of sex and a belief that the state should  enforce their view of sexual morality.

I will have a read of the article later but interesting point. "Tolerant" in the 21st century seems to be a very 1-way street. I actually think it may change in that there are more young guys than ever paying for sex and whiole they may not openly support it I think they will ultimately do that. I'm not convinced Muslims would be that keen on making it illegal either considering the amount I see at knocking shops.

[Happylad]

Perhaps "Profession" is not entirely the description that was intended - think "profession" and one immediately thinks of doctors, accountants, architects, lawyers, nurses, physiotherapists, chiropractors, etc., and to call oneself one of these one normally has to undergo or undertake special training and then pass one or more examinations; having done so one would then normally not be allowed to practise in that capacity without first obtaining negligence insurance to protect clients/patients/customers in case one made a balls-up. That in itself raises considerable problems since very many of the prossies claiming the intellectual abilities required to pass an exam were actually slung out of the universities whose education they claim for either failure in exams or inattendance to their courses.

They would also be required to be regulated by a professional standards authority, such as the GMC or the SRA

 It would be most interesting to hear precisely what form of training a student prossie would have to undertake, where such training would be given, whether student loans would be available for the purpose, and how (given the constant complaints of poverty from the practitioners) repayment of these grants would be obtained from their earnings.  It would be even more interesting to hear precisely what form the examinations would take - presumably there would have to be both theoretical and practical sections.

However, having finally qualified, each professional practitioner would then have to acquire suitable negligence insurance. Whilst it is not greatly likely that a prossie would cause serious injury to a client, she could well, however inadvertently, pass on a STD of some sort (whether a wart or two, genital herpes, or a full blown dose of clap or HIV).  At present, of course, we punters have no recourse if one of these catches us, but what a wonderful time some would have. I can see the cost of OWO and RO absolutely rocketing to keep pace with the premiums once the insurers worked out the problems.

I don`t think it will catch on

[Itsnotshy]

You're right, maybe legal occupation would be a better description.

[Doc Holliday]

Perhaps "Profession" is not entirely the description that was intended - think "profession" and one immediately thinks of doctors, accountants, architects, lawyers, nurses, physiotherapists, chiropractors, etc., and to call oneself one of these one normally has to undergo or undertake special training and then pass one or more examinations; having done so one would then normally not be allowed to practise in that capacity without first obtaining negligence insurance to protect clients/patients/customers in case one made a balls-up. That in itself raises considerable problems since very many of the prossies claiming the intellectual abilities required to pass an exam were actually slung out of the universities whose education they claim for either failure in exams or inattendance to their courses.

They would also be required to be regulated by a professional standards authority, such as the GMC or the SRA

 It would be most interesting to hear precisely what form of training a student prossie would have to undertake, where such training would be given, whether student loans would be available for the purpose, and how (given the constant complaints of poverty from the practitioners) repayment of these grants would be obtained from their earnings.  It would be even more interesting to hear precisely what form the examinations would take - presumably there would have to be both theoretical and practical sections.

However, having finally qualified, each professional practitioner would then have to acquire suitable negligence insurance. Whilst it is not greatly likely that a prossie would cause serious injury to a client, she could well, however inadvertently, pass on a STD of some sort (whether a wart or two, genital herpes, or a full blown dose of clap or HIV).  At present, of course, we punters have no recourse if one of these catches us, but what a wonderful time some would have. I can see the cost of OWO and RO absolutely rocketing to keep pace with the premiums once the insurers worked out the problems.

I don`t think it will catch on

Indeed

The word profession has become sadly diluted over the centuries but my definition would also still fit the above. I suppose its more indicative of the state of journalism and lack of understanding of the English language when what they really mean is that it should perhaps become more socially acceptable as a normal job/occupation rather than meddling with the legality?

That said prostitution is often given the misnomer "the oldest profession"

[Foxtail17]

This story is from Should prostitution be a normal profession?, an episode of Business Daily on the BBC World Service. It was presented by Ed Butler and produced by Laurence Knight.

External Link/Members Only

Yes, with a regulator to deal with complaints. Try telling an escort you are going to report her to OfShag!!

[freeze44]

If it did become a normal profession then think qualifications/apprenticeships could be on the cards...be a fun training school providing that!

[Home Alone]

Perhaps "Profession" is not entirely the description that was intended.

I've not yet listened to the link; but I guess that the programme's title was a nod to Kipling's story about an Indian prostitute, who he referred to as being a member of the 'most ancient profession in the world'.

Snce then, 'the oldest profession' has always had connotations of prostitution.

Thank you, Wikipedia! 

[wristjob]

Yes, with a regulator to deal with complaints. Try telling an escort you are going to report her to OfShag!!

Nice

[wonko88]

Obvious point, but it can't possibly be.

Given the effective definition is that sex is traded for money.

I'm fairly sure that if you trade goats or similar for sex that was always regarded as a marriage

In order for it to be prostitution I'm fairly sure it has to be currency, not goods or services.

The money has to have come first, been earned, stolen, whatever.

So at least one profession must be older than prostitution.

My opinion of Kipling's 'genius' has gone down a few notches.

Of course I may be wrong, and this post may be irrelevant.

edit - and surely Ofufuck would be much better than Ofshag?

and yes, prostitution should be an accepted career choice. Like bricklayer, or lorry driver, possibly not like medical doctor.

[Pillowtalk]

Semi skilled manual worker maybe?

[wonko88]

+1

[Home Alone]

The 18-minute programme's a fascinating listen.

The debate in the  Netherlands has been brought about by a 40,000-signature petition presented to the Dutch parliament but the BBC correspondent quoted the Dutch Ministry of justice as saying - I paraphrase - "there aren't going to be any changes any time soon."

That was followed by a debate betwern an American former sex-worker at one of the 'Ranches' in Nevada on one side and our old 'friend', Julie Bindel. The American woman is currently studying for a Ph.D. - I think on this issue - and it was fascinating to hear her produce statistics from several countries - & Rhode Island in the USA - which made Bindel's generalisations look very weak arguments.

[Happylad]

Obvious point, but it can't possibly be.

Given the effective definition is that sex is traded for money.

I'm fairly sure that if you trade goats or similar for sex that was always regarded as a marriage

In order for it to be prostitution I'm fairly sure it has to be currency, not goods or services.

The money has to have come first, been earned, stolen, whatever.

So at least one profession must be older than prostitution.

My opinion of Kipling's 'genius' has gone down a few notches.

Of course I may be wrong, and this post may be irrelevant.

edit - and surely Ofufuck would be much better than Ofshag?

and yes, prostitution should be an accepted career choice. Like bricklayer, or lorry driver, possibly not like medical doctor.

Not entirely sure that I agree with you on this Wonko; in many ancient civilizations Prostitutes first appeared as`Holy Women`in the temples (or whatever passed for temples) of whatever was the ruling deity in the religion of that civilization, and were there generally for the performance of religious rituals; when or whether these rituals actually involved sexual intercourse is not factually established, but certainly Kings and High Priests were involved in religious ritual with them, and in those cases reward would not have been for currency but for favours and services.

However, even overlooking this Wonko,; unless you propose that the manufacture of coinage was a profession rather than a trade there would be no `professional` precurser to the remuneration for the ladies` activities, and Kipling may still retain your estimation.

[wonko88]

 

[Foxtail17]

Semi skilled manual worker maybe?

Would they have to work a week in hand when starting?

[freeze44]

Would they have to work a week in hand when starting?

Think it be more performance related...so for example bj will be marked for style, cock hardness and amount of cum resulting with a target to aim for to keep skills improving! 

[Colston36]

This story is from Should prostitution be a normal profession?, an episode of Business Daily on the BBC World Service. It was presented by Ed Butler and produced by Laurence Knight.

External Link/Members Only

Of course it should: "Between 2003 and 2008, there was a 30% decline in the US state of Rhode Island in violent assault against female sex workers after sex work was made legal"

[chadpitt]

Well it is known as the world's oldest profession

[Laudanum]

Maybe if it's a profession, they should have professional qualifications and courses, with letters after their name (MSex)?

Seriously, though, the more legitimacy the profession has, the better. I still get the impression it is regarded by the media as a last resort for desperate little men who prey on vulnerable women.

[purple_t]

I've noticed a shift in attitude towards sex workers in recent years, but of course buyers are at best ridiculed and at worst demonised by left-wing media. If the attitude to the industry shifts as a whole the it may become more legitimised. In the UK at least, radical feminism is the biggest threat, and although it's sad to see some radfem ideas infiltrate mainstream thought, I think feminism will become too fragmented and collapse in on itself before things get really bad

[chadpitt]

I've noticed a shift in attitude towards sex workers in recent years, but of course buyers are at best ridiculed and at worst demonised by left-wing media. If the attitude to the industry shifts as a whole the it may become more legitimised. In the UK at least, radical feminism is the biggest threat, and although it's sad to see some radfem ideas infiltrate mainstream thought, I think feminism will become too fragmented and collapse in on itself before things get really bad

Feminists vs grid girls exemplify how bizzarely repressive feminists have come to be.

Feminism was supposed to be about giving women a choice, now they're just the mirror image of the Saudi religious police.

[Itsnotshy]

Feminists vs grid girls exemplify how bizzarely repressive feminists have come to be.

Feminism was supposed to be about giving women a choice, now they're just the mirror image of the Saudi religious police.

Exactly. Real freedom has to be the freedom to make choices about your own body that some may deem to be morally undesirable.

[wonko88]

Exactly. Real freedom has to be the freedom to make choices about your own body that some may deem to be morally undesirable.

Otherwise they, the feminists, are making decisions about other women's bodies, which I believe is something they may be against.

[unclepokey]

I'm from an old school of taxation professionals who remember the classification of 'trade, profession or/and vocation' as instances where 'income' deriving therefrom could 'arise' and thus, under the law, be taxable income. I understand the fundamentals remain the same.

On the question of  'normal' - the nature of the activity concerned is absolutely not a relevant question, at least for tax purposes. If done for profit it will come within the scope of the tax charging provisions. I stress 'done for profit'. Gifts from old farts like me 70 plus might well pass the test though what care I?

It IS A NORMAL PROFESSION , my dear and has been since Jesus was a lad.


 

[hungrypunt]

Will do wonders for prices , more competition is always good

[Jas1975]

I struggle to understand how women don't want help in protecting sex workers.  That would surely be the net result of greater legalisation.

[wristjob]

I can't read this, it;'s just the usual BBC trash.

“What if it was your sister?”

See that only works if you think they are doing something wrong or immoral - ie if you are living in the distant past. if my sister got a job where she earned £100/hour and set her own hours as opposed to working for £15/hour, having to work her life around it etc - way to go sis.


“What’s great about the brothel is that, since it’s legal, you’re there and you’re protected,” says Parreira. She’s talking about brothels in Nevada, where prostitution is legal in some places.
“If a client were to get out of hand, there’s panic buttons.”

But Julie Bindel, a journalist and campaigner against prostitution, argues more prostitutes are killed by pimps or johns in countries where it’s legal. She says she’s never needed a “panic button” working in journalism.

Funny that, cos 2019 seems to be the year of dead journos, maybe they should have panic buttons. The news outlets really love protecting their own to the extent it's got boring. How many dead prostitute stories this year?

I was in Paradise Studio in Sheffield recently - essentially a brothel. Busy times they have security there and I really wouldn't want to find out what happens if you caused any kind of trouble. The place is cheaper than most, and I guess they get the girls working there partly because of the safety aspect. I think most parlours I've been to have locked doors so gangs likely couldn't get in.

Bindel thinks that sex work still isn’t safe enough for women, and therefore can’t be grouped together with any other government regulated career path and spoken about in the same way.

I bet less prostitutes (excluding streetwalkers) are killed/injured each year than regular people commuting to work in their car.

[jackdaw]

I struggle to understand how women don't want help in protecting sex workers.  That would surely be the net result of greater legalisation.

Yes.

Some of the UK legislation seems deliberately calculated to make the job more dangerous...making brothels illegal, for example.

I think it's difficult to put together a credible argument against notion that a licensed brothel system would make it safer for both WGs and punters.

[Itsnotshy]

I struggle to understand how women don't want help in protecting sex workers.  That would surely be the net result of greater legalisation.

Because most women, even if they say they care for sex workers welfare, secretly hate them for providing men with options outside traditional monogamous relationships.
Saying they wish to save sex workers is merely virtue signalling justification for their anti sex work stance.
Really it's all about intrasexual competition, and keeping the 'price' of sex high for men. And I'm sure all the married men on here know just how high that 'price' can be.

[peter purves]

Because most women, even if they say they care for sex workers welfare, secretly hate them for providing men with options outside traditional monogamous relationships.
Saying they wish to save sex workers is merely virtue signalling justification for their anti sex work stance.
Really it's all about intrasexual competition, and keeping the 'price' of sex high for men. And I'm sure all the married men on here know just how high that 'price' can be.

My take on it is that society hates them and women being a party of society hates them for that same reason.

We have had nearly 5,000 years of civilisation I cannot see it being a viable profession accepted by society. I do not think there has been one that has ever existed

[wristjob]

Because most women, even if they say they care for sex workers welfare, secretly hate them for providing men with options outside traditional monogamous relationships.
Saying they wish to save sex workers is merely virtue signalling justification for their anti sex work stance.
Really it's all about intrasexual competition, and keeping the 'price' of sex high for men. And I'm sure all the married men on here know just how high that 'price' can be.

Exactly that. Probably part of it is they don't trust their men, the feminists probably don't have men orhave men who have "opinions" and removing alternative options removes scope for those guys to dump them.

[ILA2018]

Most of the feminists are ugly or jaded so are killjoys, it's no wonder they want to ban prostitution. Feminism in the West isn't about protecting women's rights, it's about power and control.

[ILA2018]

“What’s great about the brothel is that, since it’s legal, you’re there and you’re protected,” says Parreira. She’s talking about brothels in Nevada, where prostitution is legal in some places.
“If a client were to get out of hand, there’s panic buttons.”

But Julie Bindel, a journalist and campaigner against prostitution, argues more prostitutes are killed by pimps or johns in countries where it’s legal. She says she’s never needed a “panic button” working in journalism.[/color]

Funny that, cos 2019 seems to be the year of dead journos, maybe they should have panic buttons. The news outlets really love protecting their own to the extent it's got boring. How many dead prostitute stories this year?

I volunteered in an organisation on campus in uni that provided a range of different services to students (tea, toast, confidential listenings etc) and we had panic buttons where the campus security would be called in. Jesus no wonder journalists are failing. By the way she's talking she's most likely never had a job outside of journalism and no real life experience or empathy lol.

[Titti Tatti]

Will do wonders for prices , more competition is always good

I understood that the thing about a Profession is that it is self regulating.

So
A a profession can restrict who can advertise their services  by demanding a certain level of training - as discjussed above.
B will need a regulatory body to enforce rules and to kick out those who don't follow them

Neither of the above will lead to reduced prices.

[houseboot]

I can't read this, it;'s just the usual BBC trash.

“What if it was your sister?”

See that only works if you think they are doing something wrong or immoral - ie if you are living in the distant past. if my sister got a job where she earned £100/hour and set her own hours as opposed to working for £15/hour, having to work her life around it etc - way to go sis.

So you're happy for your sister to go on the game.

Next question, "What if it was your daughter?"

Unemployed, she goes down the Job Centre and they say, "Whore wanted, it's ok you're qualified .... all you've got to do is open your legs"

[Payyourwaymate]

You know, thinking in terms of self interest, simply as a punter I would say yes, as it would benefit me and people like me in the long term.
Now if I was a woman I would argue against that situation and do everything I could in my power to prevent that from ever occurring.

Why?

Because if men suddenly can go somewhere else to release their urges, speaking from a woman's perspective that understands the power of her sexuality to use as leverage over men; losing that power would be a disaster. How would I (speaking from a woman's perspective) have a man court me, buy me things and put up with my unreasonable demands if he can just get the goods elsewhere for less hassle?


More women would have a glimpse to experience what it's like to be men and actually have to put in more effort to build their characters and put their lives together to bring more to a potential relationship than their looks and for someone to give a toss about their existence.This is not to take away from women that are reasonable and sensible people already.

I feel like women that are lesbians must have caught a glimpse of the nonsense that men have to put up with in their personal relationships with their significant other and trying to attract their fellow women for relationships or flings.

One thing that seems more popular these days is camsites/camwhores. This whole "onlyfans" site and "pornhub models" has really taken off over the past couple years. That seems to be more acceptable than outright physically selling sex from client to client, from what I have seen anyway. I would not be surprised if that becomes an accepted profession faster than prostitution as in the cam situation men still have resources extracted from them without any real exchange that takes power away from women as a whole; so there would be no reason for women to see that as a threat I think. 

[Itsnotshy]

Every woman is someones daughter and every man is someones son.
At some point you grow up and become your own person and make your own decisions in life.
'What if it was your daughter' is an attempt to emotionally blackmail people into agreeing with the speakers point of view.

[kingmg]

Yes then price would drop as more doing it

[freeze44]

Every woman is someones daughter and every man is someones son.
At some point you grow up and become your own person and make your own decisions in life.
'What if it was your daughter' is an attempt to emotionally blackmail people into agreeing with the speakers point of view.

Well put 

That's why we have age restrictions and such like to determine when someone is able to make their own life choices.

[Gordon Bennett]

Even if it became a "legitimate profession" it's never gonna be acceptable for married/attached males to slink off and fuck them is it? There will always be a stigma to it if the average punter is perceived as being a philandering cheat. I actually think the majority of the negative connotations currently attached to prostitution derive from perceptions of the seedy dirty old punters more than the slaggy ladies providing the service.
Best outcome would be for everyone to just accept and recognise it's just adults coming to a mutually acceptable arrangement over consensual sex but I can't see that ever happening really.

[Chazz]

Thanks Mr P! This looks interesting - I'll have a listen this afternoon. 

[Strawberry]

Even if it became a "legitimate profession" it's never gonna be acceptable for married/attached males to slink off and fuck them is it? There will always be a stigma to it if the average punter is perceived as being a philandering cheat. I actually think the majority of the negative connotations currently attached to prostitution derive from perceptions of the seedy dirty old punters more than the slaggy ladies providing the service.
Best outcome would be for everyone to just accept and recognise it's just adults coming to a mutually acceptable arrangement over consensual sex but I can't see that ever happening really.

This exactly, people talk about highly visible brothels, places to obtain sex but at the end of the day for many involved it cannot be the same as popping into the supermarket or pub.

[Home Alone]

This exactly, people talk about highly visible brothels, places to obtain sex but at the end of the day for many involved it cannot be the same as popping into the supermarket or pub.

The thought I had after drivng round Manchester for about an hour one afternoon in December 2004 with the Evening News open at the page with the Massage Parlour adverts on the passenger seat looking for somewhere to make my debut was that they don't have signs inviting potential customers in for a shag, in the way that pubs have signs inviting potental customers in for a drink.

I remember checking my mileometer when I finally located Sandy's Prestwich Parlour. I'd driven 36 miles in search of a Parlour and was about 4 or 5 miles from where I lived at the time.

[mr.bluesky]

Maybe if it's a profession, they should have professional qualifications and courses, with letters after their name (MSex)?

Do they start at the bottom and work there way up 

[threechilliman]

The thought I had after drivng round Manchester for about an hour one afternoon in December 2004 with the Evening News open at the page with the Massage Parlour adverts on the passenger seat looking for somewhere to make my debut was that they don't have signs inviting potential customers in for a shag, in the way that pubs have signs inviting potental customers in for a drink.

I remember checking my mileometer when I finally located Sandy's Prestwich Parlour. I'd driven 36 miles in search of a Parlour and was about 4 or 5 miles from where I lived at the time.

Satnav is your friend these days. God knows how I'd have gone on in the days before we had it - and these days if it hadn't been invented!!

[Marmalade]

Yes, of course it should be a normal profession for anyone with a personality bypass who is abnormally too lazy, too incompetent or just too much of a slag to do any proper job. 

[kingmg]

It should be the more wgs the cheaper the price