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Author Topic: The Post Office "Horizon" computer system  (Read 5348 times)

Offline Blackpool Rock

Call for a police enquiry after a 2017 document shows PO bosses and lawyers knew there was a problem with the Horizon system however they continued to blame and prosecute the sub postmasters  :thumbsdown:

I think we all know this is the case but thinking / knowing and proving are different things however when evidence surfaces it changes the narrative.
Surely there must be some sort of legal repercussions for knowingly proceeding with prosecutions when you didn't think they were valid / safe etc, would this be perjury  :unknown:
My understanding is that for instance a defence lawyer defending someone accused of murder may think they are guilty but their job is to defend them however if the accused then tells them that they did murder someone they can no longer defend them as being innocent etc  :unknown:

Seems like the PO legal team now have questions to answer too

Some high profile people need to be brought before the courts and get jail time for making so many peoples lives a misery

External Link/Members Only

Offline berksboy

  If the above is true and i have read the same on a few news sites then some very senior PO bosses need to do some real prison time. The way they went for their own staff is beyond repulsive.

Offline RandomGuy99

I think you're right.  It is clear that senior people in the Post Office knew that their computer system was faulty and instead of stopping the prosecutions they concealed the truth and ruined peope's lives. They should be held to account for this.

It is also true that the computer system was bad and various people on the technical side didn't do a great job.  However, producing a bad computer system does not normally result in people committing suicide, being made bankrupt and lives being ruined.  Lots of people in many professions do a bad job and make mistakes every day, but that doesn't result in what happened here.

The management are the ones who are really to blame for what happened here.

Online advent2016

IANAL, but have worked around Justice Departments for years.

The Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996
External Link/Members Only

Like much law it is every complicated and has sections that they "must do", "should do", "may do".
The prosecutor must—
Disclose to the accused any prosecution material which has not previously been disclosed to the accused and which might reasonably be considered capable of undermining the case for the prosecution against the accused of assisting the case for the accused.

and get outs like

"Material must not be disclosed under this section to the extent that the court, on an application by the prosecutor, concludes it is not in the public interest to disclose it and orders accordingly."

Some lawyers just "forget" and use the guidance prior to this legislation and bury the answers deep in their disclosure reports and rarely if caught out say "honest mistake, we didn't use the 1996 guidance, but the 1966 guidance" and blame a paralegal. 

« Last Edit: March 29, 2024, 11:47:14 am by advent2016 »

Online webpunter

I think you're right.  It is clear that senior people in the Post Office knew that their computer system was faulty and instead of stopping the prosecutions they concealed the truth and ruined peope's lives. They should be held to account for this.

It is also true that the computer system was bad and various people on the technical side didn't do a great job.  However, producing a bad computer system does not normally result in people committing suicide, being made bankrupt and lives being ruined.  Lots of people in many professions do a bad job and make mistakes every day, but that doesn't result in what happened here.

The management are the ones who are really to blame for what happened here.

+1
TPO's legal advisors should also be held to account
Their barrister hasn't exactly covered himself in glory & has worked on TPO's behalf knowing the faults & influencing + rewriting witness statements [to benefit TPO]
The problem is that TPOs shareholder is the Govt & there will be concerns [in Govt] that it'll further confirm that the Govt were pretty aware what was happening & chose to ignore it
TPO is a public corporation of the Department for Business and Trade, with a Govt minister in charge
On the one hand Rishi is bolloxing on about SPMs receiving compo & their convictions quashed
and at the same time the Govt is trying to drag out the process
[there's less to pay when the SPMs keep dying, getting older & the stress of what happened wont be helping]


Online myothernameis

I believe Fujitsu are the preferred  bidder for digital id in the UK, so what can go wrong

Offline cunningman

I believe Fujitsu are the preferred  bidder for digital id in the UK, so what can go wrong

I'm not sure how much of this is really Fujitsu's problem, rather than TPO and their lawyers.  Fujitsu were not a defendant and while it seems that a number of their employees were called to give evidence it also seems that they were coached and controlled by TPO lawyers.  They should perhaps have torn up the contract and volunteered evidence but we don't know what the contracts said in terms of disclosure.

The software had bugs and frankly I'm not surprised.  It was trying to handle messaging from branches with poor connectivity, quite unlike what we have now with internet even quite rural.  That the XML messaging was a shit show is not surprising but it was sadly fashionable then and working with strict schemas had issues too.  Even when using CORBA or ONCRPC to serialise (if not do RPC) it was always common to allow some key/value extensions to avoid big bang rollouts.  JSON RPC and YAML isn't really better and I suspect that many data lakes are in fact swamps of unusable data because we expect data to map to objects and its very brittle.

They look to have had low quality but without knowing how much change request traffic there was from TPO and variation from initial design its hard to know why that was.

Offline cunningman

Alan Bates to consider private prosecutions: External Link/Members Only

I hope any lawyers he contacts tell him pro-bono not to bother.

The only one I think you could get at the moment was the IT guy used as an expert witness who might be considered to have perjured himself by following advice from the legal team - which in itself wasn't part of TPO being Group and external.

Have I missed a grilling of the lawyers involved?  It seems currently that a lot of trails lead to them.

Maybe Vennells will be a target but we haven't seen her squirm yet.  Its not clear what you could charge most of the witnesses so far with, with an expectation of a conviction.

Offline contentguy

Alan Bates to consider private prosecutions: External Link/Members Only

But you’ve probably noticed the lack of recall of important issues “i don’t remember” was a theme last week.  It will be interesting when those that remember, remember.

Online webpunter

But you’ve probably noticed the lack of recall of important issues “i don’t remember” was a theme last week.  It will be interesting when those that remember, remember.

The prospect of private prosecutions [PP] will have the higher-ups @ The Post Office [TPO] squirming
& civil servants + those in Govt
One or more of them will be offered a plea bargain thats for sure
Singing like a canary, remembering ..

When Alan Bates [AB] arranged funding to pursue TPO he was up against it
The paltry payout was mostly eaten up by the private equity investors [PEI] fees who risked their capital
You have to respect the PEIs, things could have gone differently
AB & the SPMs could have lost the case in which case the PEI not only write off their investment but also have to pay TPO costs
This didnt happen & the snowball started [slowly] rolling down the mountain

If AB wants to pursue PPs rather than having to try & persuade PEIs & lawyers to get involved they will be queuing up
On much different more advantageous terms
Like we wanna make a bit of profit [maybe take a loss] but there are other motivations, excellent PR for starters
A hedge fund billionaire might wanna have some fun, do a bit of good 
The vacous vennels & the other lying cunts @ TPO wont be sleeping easy for sure
Good, they made the SPMs lives a misery
One of the higher ups topping themselves [just like SPMs], karma

It wont be easy or quick for PP, however prima facie they are onto a winner
Those involved @ TPO will have it come upon them being harrassed & pursued
Just like the PPs which the TPO did relentlessly & frequently [knowing that Horizon was fundamently flawed yet they cracked along]
This time PPs in the public eye, where the TPO are already guilty
& what are the Govt gonna do being seen to try & resist ?, delaying tactics at best

AB has made it his life's mission so hopefully he will finally extract a few ££ along the way to hopefully finally enjoy some quality time in a delayed retirement
He deserves it

Offline cunningman

The prospect of private prosecutions [PP] will have the higher-ups @ The Post Office [TPO] squirming
& civil servants + those in Govt

Seriously?  Prosecuting on what charge?  Specifically what?  And how will AB meet the burden of proof?

Online advent2016

Miscarriages of justice often take a long, long time to be resolved, no matter what trite words the PM of day says .
Criminal cases like Paul Blackburn took over 25 years External Link/Members Only)


Offline jackdaw

Seriously?  Prosecuting on what charge?  Specifically what?  And how will AB meet the burden of proof?

Apparently “perversion of the course of justice” is one potential charge, and at least one of their own past legal advisers thinks there is a reasonable chance of some of them being found guilty.

As the enquiry has progressed it’s become increasingly hard for any reasonable person to doubt that some senior personnel knew that prosecuting some Postmasters relying on Horizons probity was dangerously unsafe.

 So I think the burden of proof could be achieved. But it would require long, complex trials…I’m open minded whether it would actually benefit society…but (of course) understand why victims of the scandal think it’s clear people should be prosecuted.

Offline RandomGuy99

Alan Bates to consider private prosecutions: External Link/Members Only

I hope any lawyers he contacts tell him pro-bono not to bother.

The only one I think you could get at the moment was the IT guy used as an expert witness who might be considered to have perjured himself by following advice from the legal team - which in itself wasn't part of TPO being Group and external.

Have I missed a grilling of the lawyers involved?  It seems currently that a lot of trails lead to them.

Maybe Vennells will be a target but we haven't seen her squirm yet.  Its not clear what you could charge most of the witnesses so far with, with an expectation of a conviction.
Seems a little pointless going after the IT guy.

You want to set an example so it's the "big fish" management who knew what was happening and covered it up that you want to get in jail.

Offline DastardlyDick

Seems a little pointless going after the IT guy.

You want to set an example so it's the "big fish" management who knew what was happening and covered it up that you want to get in jail.

I haven't been following this very closely, but I did see today that Paula Vennells signed off on a legal bill of £300,000 to prosecute a Sub Postmistress for a £25,000 "loss" - sounds very disproportionate to me.

Offline Blackpool Rock

I haven't been following this very closely, but I did see today that Paula Vennells signed off on a legal bill of £300,000 to prosecute a Sub Postmistress for a £25,000 "loss" - sounds very disproportionate to me.
Waiting to see her squirm like fuck when she gets questioned, i'm loving the way all these enquiries seem to proper rip into these fuckers with no punches pulled  :thumbsup:

Watching a few people being grilled though I have wondered whether they sit there feeling uncomfortable but know they only have to endure the hot seat for a few hours then off they merrily go with X £M still intact in the bank  :thumbsdown:
Jail time needed so they really understand what they put others through  :drinks:

Online webpunter

Waiting to see her squirm like fuck when she gets questioned, i'm loving the way all these enquiries seem to proper rip into these fuckers with no punches pulled  :thumbsup:

Watching a few people being grilled though I have wondered whether they sit there feeling uncomfortable but know they only have to endure the hot seat for a few hours then off they merrily go with X £M still intact in the bank  :thumbsdown:
Jail time needed so they really understand what they put others through  :drinks:

At the mo it seems like that, hot seat
If private prosecutions do happen i cant see the higher-ups getting much support from TPO
& they aint gonna qualify for legal aid
So they'll have to pay for their own legal defence
& lawyers defending people that everyone knows is guilty charge a premium
Jail time unlikely anytime soon unfortunately

I doubt very much if the vacuous vennels will be going out much, concerned about being harrassed
The public cant do anything to them physically, not the best idea against the law & some stupid fuckers will be supportive
However this doesnt stop calling them out so they feel very uncomfortable
With the interweb & news feeds, heading somewhere obscure for privacy doesnt always guarantee anonymity
Oh dear

Online webpunter

I haven't been following this very closely, but I did see today that Paula Vennells signed off on a legal bill of £300,000 to prosecute a Sub Postmistress for a £25,000 "loss" - sounds very disproportionate to me.

Vacuous Vennels on a corporate powertrip
& wasting £275k of tax payers money at the time
Plus fuck knows how many staff hours @ TPO, which could be better spent with them trying to run their shite business which is losing fuck loads [of taxpayers ££]
Roll on a private prosecutions [PP] she'll be top of the list
Hopefully she'll find out what its like to have to pay a £300k legal bill ... herself

VV is RBF in every sense

Unless the public see higher ups @ TPO facing punishment this is going to fuel anger towards them
[with media attention this isnt going to go away, Bates wont let it happen for starters]
I hope that they feel chased & persecuted just like the SPMs whose lives were made a misery
So much so that some ended it, the state of mind that these people were in cant be imagined
& those that didnt get to go this far have seen their lives [& those around them] destroyed 

PPs are worth pursuing & offering a way out for those squealing should be made to be attractive
I'm thinking that those in the civil service at the time had numerous opportunities to call things to halt
Yet they did the square root of FA
They are nearly as guilty, just harder to prove

I wonder is VV is on a huge pension from TPO ?
This should be canned immediately
Put the pension pot into the funds for compo for the SPMs
Achieving two things:
1/ increasing the compo pot [not only from VV but also her accomplises]
2/ fucking them over