Vast majority back calls to make paying for sex illegal

[dp1817]

I really don't get the logic in this

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If this ever was made law how on earth would they enforce and prosecute this?

Its like saying buying drugs is bad but if your selling drugs its ok 

[Hydrant]

It's only Ulster. They're mostly God-botherers of one sort or another.

[CaptainRoscoe]

"An overwhelming 78% of 1,016 people surveyed in Northern Ireland"

I stopped reading there.

[Hogan]

Poll shows 78% support throwing the book at punters – but only 2% of prostitutes agree

2% thickos

[James999]

but only 2% of prostitutes agree

They are the ones that can read 

[Jimmyredcab]

"An overwhelming 78% of 1,016 people surveyed in Northern Ireland"     

I stopped reading there.

Irish Joke

Murphy calls to see his mate Paddy, who has a broken leg.

Paddy says, "Me feet are freezing mate, could you nip upstairs and get me slippers?"

"No bother," he says, and he runs upstairs and there are Paddy's two stunning 19 year old twin daughters sat on their beds.

"Hello dere girls, your Da' sent me up here to shag ya both."

"Fook off you liar!"

"I'll prove it," Murphy says.

So he shouts down the stairs, "Both of them, Paddy?"

"Of course, what's the use of fookin' one?"

[smiths]

I really don't get the logic in this

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If this ever was made law how on earth would they enforce and prosecute this?

Its like saying buying drugs is bad but if your selling drugs its ok 

It isnt a vast majority though in reality, its a small number of people compared to the population as a whole, plus i wouldnt trust what a rag like this paper says. Some laws are passed but the police dependent on the attitude of the top cops in any given area choose not to enforce them fully or hardly at all. Prime examples are brothels and the street scene, both illegal but both going on every day in some areas with the police allowing it. Of course this tolerance can stop at any time if the top cops decide to stop it.

IMO this offence would primarily be designed to deter punters punting in the first place knowing that a conviction could destroy their lives. Its the same thinking Harriet Harridan had with her 2009/10 coercion law, and her wish to criminalise ALL punters here. The police resources required to nick punters punting with Indies would be expensive, purges are the most likely thing non tolerant top cops will do i think and mainly around brothels and the street scene where they already know the where, when, why and sometimes who.

As to whether such a law will be passed here, it will depend on how well Labour do at the election and obviously how much support Harridan thinks she can get. The close linking human sexual trafficking to prostitution is clearly the premise she and her supporters in the media, femi-nazis like Julie Bindel for example are using. I havent seen the evidence by way of convictions that its a big problem here. Lack of convictions or evidence arent necessary to these people though, its a crusade to them, they fit their agenda to suit themselves.

What is certain is such a law wont stop prostitution.

[Diehard]

It isnt a vast majority though in reality, its a small number of people compared to the population as a whole, plus i wouldnt trust what a rag like this paper says. Some laws are passed but the police dependent on the attitude of the top cops in any given area choose not to enforce them fully or hardly at all. Prime examples are brothels and the street scene, both illegal but both going on every day in some areas with the police allowing it. Of course this tolerance can stop at any time if the top cops decide to stop it.

IMO this offence would primarily be designed to deter punters punting in the first place knowing that a conviction could destroy their lives. Its the same thinking Harriet Harridan had with her 2009/10 coercion law, and her wish to criminalise ALL punters here. The police resources required to nick punters punting with Indies would be expensive, purges are the most likely thing non tolerant top cops will do i think and mainly around brothels and the street scene where they already know the where, when, why and sometimes who.

As to whether such a law will be passed here, it will depend on how well Labour do at the election and obviously how much support Harridan thinks she can get. The close linking human sexual trafficking to prostitution is clearly the premise she and her supporters in the media, femi-nazis like Julie Bindel for example are using. I havent seen the evidence by way of convictions that its a big problem here. Lack of convictions or evidence arent necessary to these people though, its a crusade to them, they fit their agenda to suit themselves.

What is certain is such a law wont stop prostitution.

No, but such a law would kill of aw overnight. Police would immediately trace every member seeking services through their ip addresses. People don't realise how sophisticated the old bills surveillance systems are if they choose to use them. Generally they don't as too expensive but if hh gets a bee in her bonnet when labour get in next May and starts cracking the whip with senior officers, I'll be leaving that site. Btw I hate labour, but Tories have no hope of a majority, lib demos won't go into coalition with them, it an open door for labour so we all are likely to have a problem in a few months or years time

[smiths]

No, but such a law would kill of aw overnight. Police would immediately trace every member seeking services through their ip addresses. People don't realise how sophisticated the old bills surveillance systems are if they choose to use them. Generally they don't as too expensive but if hh gets a bee in her bonnet when labour get in next May and starts cracking the whip with senior officers, I'll be leaving that site. Btw I hate labour, but Tories have no hope of a majority, lib demos won't go into coalition with them, it an open door for labour so we all are likely to have a problem in a few months or years time

Would it, i am not as sure as you are on that. A/W is run from abroad so i have read so if true it wont be killed off, it could be blocked but would that occur and would the police actually go to the trouble and expense of tracing punters, i cant see it. The police are far more likely to go for easy targets as i posted above, brothels and the street scene. Time will tell of course as it will as to who gets in in May and whether Harridan can muster enough support to criminalise punters. Lots of ifs and buts.

[Corus Boy]

No, but such a law would kill of aw overnight. Police would immediately trace every member seeking services through their ip addresses. People don't realise how sophisticated the old bills surveillance systems are if they choose to use them. Generally they don't as too expensive but if hh gets a bee in her bonnet when labour get in next May and starts cracking the whip with senior officers, I'll be leaving that site. Btw I hate labour, but Tories have no hope of a majority, lib demos won't go into coalition with them, it an open door for labour so we all are likely to have a problem in a few months or years time

I doubt that as no law can be retrospective, therefore evidence that you once did will not be an offence.

Depending on how the law is formed, seeking and looking might not be an offence only the actual act of paying for sex would constitute a crime.  Of course is the law is written as an Internet Kerb Crawling offence, then there would be issues to face.

I would see a lot of profiles changing to offer a range of Dinner Dates, and what happens after...

[Gluckman]

Pffft, there's always TOR.

[Jackjones]

No, but such a law would kill of aw overnight. Police would immediately trace every member seeking services through their ip addresses. People don't realise how sophisticated the old bills surveillance systems are if they choose to use them. Generally they don't as too expensive but if hh gets a bee in her bonnet when labour get in next May and starts cracking the whip with senior officers, I'll be leaving that site. Btw I hate labour, but Tories have no hope of a majority, lib demos won't go into coalition with them, it an open door for labour so we all are likely to have a problem in a few months or years time

Just to point out how far off you are, piratebay is still as big as it ever was.

[monstar]

Would it, i am not as sure as you are on that. A/W is run from abroad so i have read so if true it wont be killed off, it could be blocked but would that occur and would the police actually go to the trouble and expense of tracing punters, i cant see it. The police are far more likely to go for easy targets as i posted above, brothels and the street scene. Time will tell of course as it will as to who gets in in May and whether Harridan can muster enough support to criminalise punters. Lots of ifs and buts.

They may claim they will trace IPs but it would never happen due to many many reasons, it is just a scaremonger tactic much like the mythical TV detector vans.

[Third Man]

posted about this stuff on other. parts of forum before. no way will AW close. for example there are hundreds of profiles here in Newcastle.  imagine the manpower needed to constantly monitor things online countrywide. and what will they do, station a few cops outfit each girl's house 24/7. in the NI assembly literature dealing with this it's pointed out that the only way is phone tapping and that has to be signed off by a very senior minister, that's what they do in Sweden. so it will stop some agencies but that's it.

[Happylad]

First, we aren`t told just who was surveyed - probably only donors on the CARE Christian Charity, and we don`t know just how the question was slanted, the the Poll probably means nothing at all.

Second, bearing in mind the amount by which the Sex Industry benefits the national economy I can`t imagine any Chancellor of the Exchequer wanting to kill it  - tax it, yes, but not kill the golden goose

[Third Man]

 cant do link on phone but articles in times and guardian today that passed by the NI assembly buying sex will become illegal after vote last night. the beginning of the end?

[fredpunter]

I glanced at an article the other day that described how most paedophiles would never be prosecuted just for looking at photos of abuse (even though they encourage the abuse by wanting to see it) because the police don't have the resources. So how keenwill they be to pursue consenting adults?

[shagbambi]

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These are easy crimes to pursue, along with speeding and parking.  Who wants to chase after somebody who may be armed?

[Jerboa]

If the question was asked on the street, and her indoors was with them, I'm sure most men would of said how terrible punting is.

[StPunt]

how can it be proved? you pay for the time anyway not the sex.

[smiths]

I glanced at an article the other day that described how most paedophiles would never be prosecuted just for looking at photos of abuse (even though they encourage the abuse by wanting to see it) because the police don't have the resources. So how keenwill they be to pursue consenting adults?

Absolutely. A while back the police lead on prostitution an officer called Armitt said he didnt have a problem with consenting adults off-street excluding brothels. Having a law is one thing, the police choosing to enforce it another thing entirely where prostitution is concerned as proved by their tolerance of brothels in many areas and the street scene, both of which the police know about as to where it goes on and when.

They havent the rescources to go after nonces, they sure wont have the resources to go after punters punting with Indies, and in some or many areas the top cops wont have the interest in doing so anyway either in my view.

Still having such a law is of course bad enough as it can be wheeled out when it suits with purges of brothels being the likely targets due to how little police work would be involved compared to nicking punters punting with Indies.

[Captain Caveman]

As of today, there are AW profiles for 154 women and 68 men in NI offering escort services.

We'll see how those figures change once the new law comes into effect.

My prediction: not much

[Daffodil]

cant do link on phone but articles in times and guardian today that passed by the NI assembly buying sex will become illegal after vote last night. the beginning of the end?

If it happened in the UK proper then, for me, yes. The risk would outweigh the benefits.

[smiths]

If it happened in the UK proper then, for me, yes. The risk would outweigh the benefits.

Fully understandable, and this is what any new law will primarily be designed to do, discourage punters punting at all.

[Tricky Dickie]

First, we aren`t told just who was surveyed - probably only donors on the CARE Christian Charity, and we don`t know just how the question was slanted, the the Poll probably means nothing at all.

I must have been bored but I looked up the questions on the CARE web site. So, they asked 1016 adults these two questions:

Q1: A proposal has been put forward at the Northern Ireland Assembly to introduce a required minimum sentence of two years for those people convicted of human trafficking or slavery offences within the country. The proposal allows for judges to set a lower sentence in very exceptional circumstances. Do you believe that it is appropriate for such a minimum sentence to be introduced?

Q2: A proposal has been put forward at the Northern Ireland Assembly to criminalise the purchase of sexual services in order to tackle demand for paid sex. The National Referral Mechanism has shown this to be the single biggest driver of human trafficking to Northern Ireland since 2009. Do you believe that Northern Ireland should criminalise the purchase of sexual services?

Does anyone remember the Yes Minister episode where Sir Humphrey gets Bernard to agree and then disagree with national service just by the order he asked the questions?

So, here the first question sets you up to think about human trafficking and slavery. Of course everyone says a minimum sentence is appropriate. Now you're thinking how bad human trafficking is and how you agree it needs at least two years sentence. Only then do you get asked about paid sex and you're told that this is the biggest driver of the human trafficking you were just asked about!

Not much of a surprise they mostly get the answer they wanted. Shysters.

[Curious6705]

Never been to NI - but if media reports over the years are to be believed, it has been a hotbed of religious extremism  of the worst kind and not representative of the UK in general.

[Jerboa]

I must have been bored but I looked up the questions on the CARE web site. So, they asked 1016 adults these two questions:

Does anyone remember the Yes Minister episode where Sir Humphrey gets Bernard to agree and then disagree with national service just by the order he asked the questions?

So, here the first question sets you up to think about human trafficking and slavery. Of course everyone says a minimum sentence is appropriate. Now you're thinking how bad human trafficking is and how you agree it needs at least two years sentence. Only then do you get asked about paid sex and you're told that this is the biggest driver of the human trafficking you were just asked about!

Not much of a surprise they mostly get the answer they wanted. Shysters.

Shysters indeed, any opinion poll can manufacturer any out come they want from uniformed members of the public.

[Stalinator]

Never been to NI - but if media reports over the years are to be believed, it has been a hotbed of religious extremism  of the worst kind and not representative of the UK in general.

I am Irish born and bred. I would certainly say that NI is another world, poles apart from the mainland UK.

As regards the law, the PSNI have much bigger fish to fry. They will quietly ignore the law.

[bbois77]

As regards the law, the PSNI have much bigger fish to fry. They will quietly ignore the law.

Is this the official view from one of the assistant chief constables....Fred?

[Third Man]

i think this now deserves a main thread on the forum.  Ok  northern ireland is not like mainland uk as its all reiigion  and yes iv been there, and the Snp in scot defeated the private members bill last year by the loony  left labour mp rhoda grant who is from the western isles. They needed a three line whip to do so. And they are mad up there in the western isles like ireland. But if harridan has her way its here now  so if anyone thinks this is nonsense well look out

[Dani]

It makes no difference if she and her party do pass such a law as it is impossible for it to be upheld. Even if they know a prossie works from a set place they cannot prove that any of the men visited have paid for sex.
If they passed a law making it illegal to pay for sex it would be uninforcable. A client comes to me and I don't mention money to them (so even if outside the window the police would not hear about money) how could it be proved that sex was paid for. They couldn't. They would have to have recording devices in the prossies bedroom for them to get proof and I don't think they would get permission to do that so it would be a mute law as unless business was done outside in public no one would ever have any proof.

[Stalinator]

Is this the official view from one of the assistant chief constables....Fred?

Well they are not going say anything like that officially.

It is a fact of life in NI that police have their hands full with the nutters as it is. They have no interest in harassing WGs or punters.

[smiths]

It makes no difference if she and her party do pass such a law as it is impossible for it to be upheld. Even if they know a prossie works from a set place they cannot prove that any of the men visited have paid for sex.
If they passed a law making it illegal to pay for sex it would be uninforcable. A client comes to me and I don't mention money to them (so even if outside the window the police would not hear about money) how could it be proved that sex was paid for. They couldn't. They would have to have recording devices in the prossies bedroom for them to get proof and I don't think they would get permission to do that so it would be a mute law as unless business was done outside in public no one would ever have any proof.

Of course it would make a difference, the law would state a punter is breaking the law just by punting. That would be seriously bad news for punters as the police could wheel the offence out as it suits them.

As i posted above i wouldnt expect the police to bother with punters who punt with Indies at least initially as brothels and the street scene are far easier and cheaper ways to nick punters. Purges could occur or where the top cops in any given area have zero tolerance they could tell their officers to nick punters. The point is it would be completely up to those top cops ultimately.

As i also said its all ifs and buts at this stage but Labour getting in in May would make this one stage nearer in my view. Harridan and her ilk are on a crusade, the facts make no odds to them.

[Jimmyredcab]

how can it be proved? you pay for the time anyway not the sex.

That would be laughed out of court, absolute cobblers.     

[JamesKW]

 Purges could occur or where the top cops in any given area have zero tolerance they could tell their officers to nick punters. The point is it would be completely up to those top cops ultimately.

As i also said its all ifs and buts at this stage but Labour getting in in May would make this one stage nearer in my view. Harridan and her ilk are on a crusade, the facts make no odds to them.

Purges are likely to occur from time to time and parties are a possible target as they can catch a few punters in one go with little effort.
In the world of rave clubs generally they occur with no problems but every so often the police turn up in mass to show they are doing their job,this will be the same with this law it is just if you are unlucky to get caught at the time.

[JamesKW]

This is an excellent keystone cops type clip of the police turning up in mass.
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[YouOnlyLiveOnce]

With indies, it's not really enforced even in Sweden anymore, there have been very few prosecutions IIRC.

If Harridan has her way and this becomes law in England in a few years time, I will largely ignore it (despite being a married man with kids).  I'll be a bit more careful, and wary of sting operations (new escorts with zero feedback will have a tough time).

As for stakeouts, I imagine the conversation would go something like this:

"Yes, officer, I was visiting this woman.  She's a former prostitute, and I was once a client of hers, back when it was legal.  We've become good friends, we like to get together for a drink and a chat, and sometimes we still have a good shag.  Oh, she's still on the game?  Funny, she didn't mention that".

Very unlikely they could film the money changing hands, so either I'm skint when they catch me on the way out, or I have a fair bit of cash when they catch me on the way in.  I'll stop putting it in a separate envelope and pay her out of my wallet.  What is an illegal amount of cash to carry in a wallet?

The only real chance of gathering evidence would be through electronic eavesdropping.  If you're visiting her at the same time as "randyshagger" (or whatever) was scheduled to do so, that might be difficult to explain.  But as being a prostitute won't be illegal, this would involve spying on an innocent person.  This would need anti-terrorist powers that the police don't usually have, Harridan would have to argue that prostitution = trafficking = organised crime = terrorism.  A bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.

[Wowgeek]

What is an illegal amount of cash to carry in a wallet?

The only real chance of gathering evidence would be through electronic eavesdropping.  If you're visiting her at the same time as "randyshagger" (or whatever) was scheduled to do so, that might be difficult to explain.  But as being a prostitute won't be illegal, this would involve spying on an innocent person.  This would need anti-terrorist powers that the police don't usually have, Harridan would have to argue that prostitution = trafficking = organised crime = terrorism.  A bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.

There is no maximum amount of cash you can carry, but if it is over £1000 and, you cannot provide a reasonable explanation for it, then it may institute a money laundering investigation.  Note I said MAY.

There is no legislation in this country to enable an innocent person to be spied on, there would have to be some evidence of their involvement or suspected involvement in something illegal.  If you are talking about the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA) then that isn't and never has been 'anti-terror legislation' despite what the meeja may feed the public 

[Captain Caveman]

The police call it the 'Ways and Means Act' - if they want to find a reason to arrest you, they will find the means to do it.

[charlie sheen]

This story is quite worrying

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"Next month MPs will vote on an amendment to the Modern Slavery Bill, which would make it an offence to procure a sexual act. The amendment, tabled by Labour MP Fiona MacTaggart, has also attracted support from Conservative MPs."

Seems as if some are trying to criminalise punters via this amendment to the Modern slavery legislation.

The amendment itself, Clause 21:-

Fiona Mactaggart
NC21

To move the following Clause—
“Procuring sex for payment

(1) A person commits an offence under this section if he or she procures sexual
intercourse or any other sexual act, whether for himself of herself or for another
person, in return for payment.
(2) a “payment” includes—
(a) payment that is promised or given by another person;
(b) provision of non-financial benefits, including but not limited to drugs or
alcohol.”

Anyone have an idea how likely this amendment is to pass?

[Wowgeek]

I would hope that is doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of passing based on s.21 (2) (b) alone.

Non-financial benefits, a lift home, a meal, some gardening, building, plumbing, driving lessons?  The list is almost endless, where's the 'shudder' emoticon?

[fredpunter]

This story is quite worrying

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"Next month MPs will vote on an amendment to the Modern Slavery Bill, which would make it an offence to procure a sexual act. The amendment, tabled by Labour MP Fiona MacTaggart, has also attracted support from Conservative MPs."

Seems as if some are trying to criminalise punters via this amendment to the Modern slavery legislation.

The amendment itself, Clause 21:-

Fiona Mactaggart
NC21

To move the following Clause—
“Procuring sex for payment

(1) A person commits an offence under this section if he or she procures sexual
intercourse or any other sexual act, whether for himself of herself or for another
person, in return for payment.
(2) a “payment” includes—
(a) payment that is promised or given by another person;
(b) provision of non-financial benefits, including but not limited to drugs or
alcohol.”

Anyone have an idea how likely this amendment is to pass?

This would outlaw 95% of all sex! Including 90% of sex within marriage.

[Captain Caveman]

Opposition amendments to government bills very rarely pass.

From the BBC story:

Crime Prevention Minister Norman Baker said there were "no current plans to reconsider the legislation around prostitution".

[jcdmj12]

Better hope Labour don't get in at the next election, otherwise the feminazis might actually be able to push this through. Agree with CC though, it won't pass this time.

[Third Man]

guys on here are too dismissive of this whole criminalising buying sex, it's alive and well in the EU, failed last year in Scotland after a private bill by a labour loony left msp was voted down by a three line whip by the snp. and it's passed in NI.  if labour get in that's it so we had better get some strategies in place just in case. laugh if you like but  it's nearer than you think.

[NIK]

guys on here are too dismissive of this whole criminalising buying sex, it's alive and well in the EU, failed last year in Scotland after a private bill by a labour loony left msp was voted down by a three line whip by the snp. and it's passed in NI.  if labour get in that's it so we had better get some strategies in place just in case. laugh if you like but  it's nearer than you think.

No it isn't. 

I will continue to laugh at deluded cunts who think they can do something which has never been done before in the whole history of mankind.

I go to see a regular indie. Only she and I know what has passed between us. How the fuck are they going to prosecute anyone?   

[NIK]

Furthermore, I am no longer a punter owing to financial difficulties. But if such a law was passed I would do my damndest to start punting as regularly as I could again. 

[NIK]

It makes no difference if she and her party do pass such a law as it is impossible for it to be upheld. Even if they know a prossie works from a set place they cannot prove that any of the men visited have paid for sex.
If they passed a law making it illegal to pay for sex it would be uninforcable. A client comes to me and I don't mention money to them (so even if outside the window the police would not hear about money) how could it be proved that sex was paid for. They couldn't. They would have to have recording devices in the prossies bedroom for them to get proof and I don't think they would get permission to do that so it would be a mute law as unless business was done outside in public no one would ever have any proof.

Exactly! 

Now I'm sick of hearing such bollocks! 

[NIK]

With indies, it's not really enforced even in Sweden anymore, there have been very few prosecutions IIRC.

If Harridan has her way and this becomes law in England in a few years time, I will largely ignore it (despite being a married man with kids).  I'll be a bit more careful, and wary of sting operations (new escorts with zero feedback will have a tough time).

As for stakeouts, I imagine the conversation would go something like this:

"Yes, officer, I was visiting this woman.  She's a former prostitute, and I was once a client of hers, back when it was legal.  We've become good friends, we like to get together for a drink and a chat, and sometimes we still have a good shag.  Oh, she's still on the game?  Funny, she didn't mention that".

Very unlikely they could film the money changing hands, so either I'm skint when they catch me on the way out, or I have a fair bit of cash when they catch me on the way in.  I'll stop putting it in a separate envelope and pay her out of my wallet.  What is an illegal amount of cash to carry in a wallet?

The only real chance of gathering evidence would be through electronic eavesdropping.  If you're visiting her at the same time as "randyshagger" (or whatever) was scheduled to do so, that might be difficult to explain.  But as being a prostitute won't be illegal, this would involve spying on an innocent person.  This would need anti-terrorist powers that the police don't usually have, Harridan would have to argue that prostitution = trafficking = organised crime = terrorism.  A bit of a stretch, to put it mildly.

As if the police don't have enough to do with real crime. 

[Bond]

Anyone here still thinking of voting Labour had better read this.

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